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Protecar
2010-01-22, 11:52 AM
I think my wall of text put most people out. Take Two:

I basically want to be able to use as much magic as possible without breaking the game or optimizing too much.

I get to play an evil character and I want a spellcaster with as many spells as possible. Preferably with some sorcerer-ish feel would be cool.

I'll get to start off at level 4 with a few minor items. I basically just want to be able to cast a plethora of magic per day and feel versatile and effective. Maybe True Necro combined with Dread Necro? *shrug*

I was thinking about beguiler but can't find what book it's in. Also, maybe a warlock? I found it in the PHBII but it didn't seem to give the details on how the class works.

Maybe I'm just failing all my search checks though. :smallconfused:

So what's a good way to give myself a bunch of spells to cast?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-22, 11:56 AM
for double nines (arcane/divine) wizard X /ur-priest 2/ mysthic theurge 10/ wizard(or prc) x

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 11:56 AM
Sorc/Ur-priest/mystic theurge?

Spont casting on one side, with a ridiculous amount of total spells, fits perfectly with evil, and isn't really that crazy of a build. At level 4, of course, you'd just be a sorc.

SurlySeraph
2010-01-22, 12:00 PM
Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge. You'll have more spell slots than your enemies will have hit points. You'll be behind on high-level spells, which'll hurt, but you'll have tons of spells.

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 12:02 PM
Spell-to-Power Erudite, using the as-written (and hideously broken) definition of unique powers per level per day interpretation, has more spells than anyone in the game.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-22, 12:05 PM
I basically want to be able to use as much magic as possible without breaking the game or optimizing too much.
Though this statement is horrendously vague, I think we can tell what side of the line StP Erudite is on (hint: it's the same side as Tainted Scholar)

deuxhero
2010-01-22, 12:07 PM
Warlock!

>_>

A Psion that manages to manifest bestow power for 1 PP (forget how exactly you did that) on himself is also pretty good.

erikun
2010-01-22, 12:08 PM
Warlock: capable of casting any spell all day, without restriction.

If that's not what you're looking for, some other options include:
Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Thruge 9 (Ur-Priest at level 10)
Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Thurge 4
Wizard 4/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus 10/PrC 5 (plus Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler)

dsmiles
2010-01-22, 12:11 PM
Warlock:

"That's no spell, it's an invocation!"

deuxhero
2010-01-22, 12:12 PM
Spelltheif. As many spells as you can find enemy casters.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 12:15 PM
Oooo...I definitely like the idea of a Mystic Theurge. I think I'd take as many levels in that as I can. How good would Sorcerer2/Cleric2 be? My intention would be start as that and then go straight into Mystic Theurge. Would that make me useless for a couple levels or would it work out?

I don't want to optimize ridiculously, but I really don't think I know enough to distinguish the line between "really cool" and "really powerful"

Is there any way I could finagle my way into a Mystic Theurge or Ur-priest faster?

Thanks for all the quick advice so far!

Edit: I'm aware that "over-powered" is relative but I don't know exactly where that line is either. I hear ur-priest is over powered, but it sounds really fun to play. I like the idea of being an evil character who detests the gods.

arguskos
2010-01-22, 12:22 PM
It may not be exactly what you're looking for, but The Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) wins any discussion based on who has the most powers in a single day. :smallamused: Good luck getting it approved though.

As for your actual case, might I suggest a Binder, for the versatility? If you take Expel Vestige and Imp. Binding, you can shuffle through a truly maddening amount of powers each day.

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 12:25 PM
Though this statement is horrendously vague, I think we can tell what side of the line StP Erudite is on (hint: it's the same side as Tainted Scholar)

Hey, I did qualify with "hideously broken."

(Though I only did so for the UPD, rather than the StP variant as a whole :smalltongue:)

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 12:25 PM
Oooo...I definitely like the idea of a Mystic Theurge. I think I'd take as many levels in that as I can. How good would Sorcerer2/Cleric2 be? My intention would be start as that and then go straight into Mystic Theurge. Would that make me useless for a couple levels or would it work out?

Well, it takes 3 levels per class to enter without early entry tricks. This makes you useless for much more than a couple levels. Your sorc is now four levels behind an equally leveled wizard, for example. Level 3 spells vs level 5 suck.

The only advantage over Ur-Priest is qualifying for Initiate of Mystra.


I don't want to optimize ridiculously, but I really don't think I know enough to distinguish the line between "really cool" and "really powerful"

Is there any way I could finagle my way into a Mystic Theurge or Ur-priest faster?

Precocious apprentice will allow you to enter Mystic Theurge with cleric 3/sorc 1. DMM and Sanctum spell would allow you to enter with cleric 1/sorc 1, but there's still the skill requirement issue, which is not easily dodged at that level, so really, it just gives you the flexibility to enter with cleric 2/sorc 2 if you wish for more balance, and it's certainly not an overpowered build.


Thanks for all the quick advice so far!

Edit: I'm aware that "over-powered" is relative but I don't know exactly where that line is either. I hear ur-priest is over powered, but it sounds really fun to play. I like the idea of being an evil character who detests the gods.

Well, it's got absolutely awesome fluff. It has level 9 spells in ten levels, but you pay for it via a coupla feats, possibly having to take a monk dip to meet the save requirements, being banned from other divine casters, and some skills. Also, you have to be what, level 6 to take it?

So, in the end, it's powerful, and remains so with MT, but it's not extremely broken. You can use it for broken shenanigans, sure...but you don't have to.

erikun
2010-01-22, 12:26 PM
The three I mentioned are very powerful multiclass combinations. Mystic Thurge generally isn't considered very good, because you lose 3 levels of spellcasting on each side, but can work well enough in a low-powered game. You need to be Wizard 3/Cleric 3 (or Sorcerer 3/Favored Soul 4) to enter, because it requires 2nd level spell slots.

Arcane Hierophant is basically a Wizard/Druid Mystic Thurge, which progresses familiar, animal companion, and wild shape. And combines your familiar/animal companion into one animal. It is found in Races of the Wild (3.0e book).

There are some cheap tricks for getting into Mystic Thurge early, by taking certain feats which give 2nd level spell slots at first level. I don't recall what they are right off hand, but I'm sure someone will stop by to point them out. :smallwink:

Wizard 9 is the simplest way into Ur-Priest without giving up spellcasting. You could actually get it as early as Bard 5/X 1, although Bard has less raw spellcasting than the Wizard. (I also misspoke earlier. You would need Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2 to enter Mystic Thurge.) If you can find a Wizard prestige class to grant a Bluff skill, or a feat which makes Bluff a Wizard class skill, you could enter a lot earlier - although you still need to cover the Fort +3 requirement.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 12:26 PM
It may not be exactly what you're looking for, but The Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) wins any discussion based on who has the most powers in a single day. :smallamused: Good luck getting it approved though.

As per my usual complaint whenever this is brought up, the Omnicaster isn't actually legal.

Using gestalt with PrCs on both sides is definitely not legit.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 12:26 PM
The Omnicaster made me smile at the concept. Is there a quick-reference page of where every class is in terms of books? I have all the 3.5 books(I believe) but have no easy way to find which class is where. I have a saved wiki page for all the prestige classes, but regular classes notsomuch.

Barring that, what book does the binder come from? I wouldn't mind taking a look at it. And where do Warlocks originate from? I've seen them, but again, dunno where I saw the class described in full.

Edit: Ahh! Swarm of replies while I was replying!

I didn't even notice all the Base save requirements for ur-priest. I might just opt for wizard as opposed to sorcerer. I might not miss the spontaneous casting if I eventually get a bunch more spells. My dm is kinda new to it, so I don't even know if planning for level 20 is waste of time or not though.

DementedFellow
2010-01-22, 12:28 PM
Barring that, what book does the binder come from? I wouldn't mind taking a look at it. And where do Warlocks originate from? I've seen them, but again, dunno where I saw the class described in full.

Binder - Tome of Magic
Warlock - Complete Arcane

arguskos
2010-01-22, 12:29 PM
As per my usual complaint whenever this is brought up, the Omnicaster isn't actually legal.

Using gestalt with PrCs on both sides is definitely not legit.
That's still just a recommendation, and Kurald was very clear that the Omnicaster breaks every guideline in gestalt.

It's still the best possible caster makable, that isn't Pun-Pun or the StP Erudite.

Binder is from Tome of Magic. Warlock is from Complete Arcane. The Omnicaster uses like 12 books.

erikun
2010-01-22, 12:31 PM
This webpage (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/), specifically the list of prestige classes (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/prestige.pl) will tell you which book each is in, along with prerequisites (although not much else).

Riffington
2010-01-22, 12:33 PM
Edit: I'm aware that "over-powered" is relative but I don't know exactly where that line is either. I hear ur-priest is over powered, but it sounds really fun to play. I like the idea of being an evil character who detests the gods.

Ur-Priest is not overpowered by itself. It's got a too-fast casting progression, which is fine because you have to enter at a high level, and it doesn't do much by itself. If you can enter early or you can advance its progression without taking many levels in Ur-Priest, then it becomes overpowered. Just play a straight-up Ur-Priest and you'll be fine.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 12:34 PM
That's still just a recommendation, and Kurald was very clear that the Omnicaster breaks every guideline in gestalt.

It's still the best possible caster makable, that isn't Pun-Pun or the StP Erudite.

Search for Lil' Timmy on these forums. It's a similar gestalt build that adheres to the PrC on one side issue, and has 13/13/12/7/1 casting.

I suppose I really should update it for draconic rituals and loredrake. I mean, sorc was the 7th level slot, and he's already a dragonwrought kobold, so there's really no point in not breaking it further.

Still, things that break rules can't be described as "most powerful", because when you throw out the rules, anything can be most powerful.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 12:37 PM
This webpage (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/), specifically the list of prestige classes (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/prestige.pl) will tell you which book each is in, along with prerequisites (although not much else).

Thanks for the link--I'll give it a gander sometime. And what makes the Omnicaster illegal?

Even though I'm already playing a wizard in my other campaign, so far it seems like it might be my best bet for getting into some other cool classes(i.e. ur priest)--is there a way to take some feats to help me qualify for ur priest earlier? I'm sure there's some combination of things, but preferably nothing that might stretch what my dm might allow. How does "taking a flaw" work?

Edit: Reading the above post, would taking ur-priest with mystic theurge become too powerful(relative to average CR for a party's level)? I can see why it would, but I enjoy the idea of all those spells to play with. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-01-22, 12:40 PM
Search for Lil' Timmy on these forums. It's a similar gestalt build that adheres to the PrC on one side issue, and has 13/13/12/7/1 casting.

I suppose I really should update it for draconic rituals and loredrake. I mean, sorc was the 7th level slot, and he's already a dragonwrought kobold, so there's really no point in not breaking it further.

Still, things that break rules can't be described as "most powerful", because when you throw out the rules, anything can be most powerful.
Gestalt doesn't make fast rules, just guidelines. They aren't set in stone, doubly so since gestalt is a variant anyways. Claiming the guidelines on a variant disqualify a specific build is nitpicky of the highest order.

Besides, no sane DM will ever permit the Omnicaster in a game. It's a fun thought exercise, nothing more.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 12:42 PM
Thanks for the link--I'll give it a gander sometime. And what makes the Omnicaster illegal?

It has PrCs on both sides of the gestalt at the same time, which is illegal.

It also uses multiple casting class advancing PrCs, which is recommended against, but hey...in optimization, that's still legit, since it's short of an actual ban.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 12:44 PM
Edit: Reading the above post, would taking ur-priest with mystic theurge become too powerful(relative to average CR for a party's level)? I can see why it would, but I enjoy the idea of all those spells to play with. :smallbiggrin:

You could make it so. However, the save requirements to enter Ur-priest mean you either need to take a level in a non-casting class like monk, or wait quite a while to take it. Either route lowers the cheese factor.

Likewise, going sorc as your arcane...or some other non tier 1 caster lowers the cheese factor. Still quite powerful, mind, but it's a step away from world-breaking craziness.

erikun
2010-01-22, 12:53 PM
Thanks for the link--I'll give it a gander sometime. And what makes the Omnicaster illegal?
No dual caster progression (ie. Mystic Thurge) and no taking prestige classes on both sides are "rules" (really, very strong guidelines) for running a gestault game. There is also various optional rules required for the prerequisites, such as flaws and legacy weapons, and requires stacking base saving throws (giving a Cleric 1/Wizard 1 a +4 Will save).


Even though I'm already playing a wizard in my other campaign, so far it seems like it might be my best bet for getting into some other cool classes(i.e. ur priest)--is there a way to take some feats to help me qualify for ur priest earlier? I'm sure there's some combination of things, but preferably nothing that might stretch what my dm might allow. How does "taking a flaw" work?
Ur-Priest has the following prerequisites: Evil alignment, Fort +3, Will +3, Bluff 6, Kno: Arcana 5, Kno: Planes 5, Kno: Religion 8, Spellcraft 8. A Wizard can easily achieve all of those by level 5, except the Fort save and Bluff skill. I believe there is a feat which allows you to make Bluff into a class skill (thus solving that problem), meaning you only have a low Fort save. To get around this, you'll either need to be a 9th level Wizard (by then, you could have 6 ranks in Bluff, even as a cross class skill) or take another class for a quick +2 to Fort. Cleric is obvious, but you lose Clerical spellcasting when going into Ur-Priest. Some kind of Wizard prestige class for a Fort bonus is the best option.

Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) are an optional rule that can grant you additional feats for penalities to your character. Most DMs don't use them.


Edit: Reading the above post, would taking ur-priest with mystic theurge become too powerful(relative to average CR for a party's level)? I can see why it would, but I enjoy the idea of all those spells to play with. :smallbiggrin:
Ur-Priest/MT is powerful because of what it can do, specifically 9th level cleric spellcasting at around 15th level, while keeping nearly full spellcasting on your Wizard (or whatever). If your game isn't going that high, then you'll mainly notice that you have a lot more spells than normal.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 12:57 PM
Not to sound like a total newb...but what's gestalt?

And judging by what people are saying, there isn't any easy feats to take to increase your base saves to get you into ur-priest faster? I'm against a dip into a non-caster for the saves because it would go against the flavor/roleplay of my character.

Edit: Again replied too slow. :smallredface: I guess it looks like no matter what, for what I want to do it looks like that for the first few levels I'll be taking either wizard or sorcerer. Would something like 9 Dread Necro/1 Ur Priest/10 Mystic Theurge or something work?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 12:59 PM
and requires stacking base saving throws (giving a Cleric 1/Wizard 1 a +4 Will save).

Yeah, this is also explicitly not how Gestalt works. It's always "take the better of the two". I mean...this isn't just ignoring reccomendations, which I'm fine with, it's ignoring the actual rules.

Likewise, as per the SRD: "A gestalt character canít combine two prestige classes at any level, although itís okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. "

That's a rule, since it's a can't.

"Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if youíre using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of whatís already a high-powered variant."

That's a suggestion, due to use of should. A pretty strong suggestion sure, but still a suggestion, so I'd let it go for TO purposes.

But yeah, extensive houseruling isn't legit to assume, even in variant rulesets. Flaws are fine for TO, for example, provided you use the flaws as given in UA, etc, and don't branch off into the broken house ruled stuff on dndwiki.com

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 01:00 PM
Gestalt is a variant ruleset under which instead of one class, you take two per level, and take the better attribute of each. If they grant different things(like divine and arcane spellcasting) you get both.

It's only suitable for a game in which everyone is gestalt, and it does lead to much more complicated character builds. I'd reccomend avoiding it in this situation.

Douglas
2010-01-22, 01:04 PM
This is one situation where I actually would recommend using a bit of cheese - it will primarily be compensating for the suckiness of Mystic Theurge, rather than making you overpowered. Be a Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake, and see if your DM will allow you to use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage one level early for this specific build. In combination this will get you casting as a sorcerer 3 levels higher than you actually are. Go Favored Soul 4/Sorcerer 1, then start Mystic Theurge. You will have casting as both a Favored Soul and a Sorcerer, each of 1 level below your character level. These two classes are themselves 1 level behind the non-spontaneous casters in getting higher level spells, so you have lots and lots of spells per day at the cost of being 1 spell level behind, and your two casting classes are both based on charisma. This build trades power for endurance, with an exchange rate that I think is actually reasonable.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 01:07 PM
Using DW Kobolds and the rite is fine if you start with cleric/sorc.

If you're going ur-priest/sorc, skip the kobold bit, as the combination of the two is...getting pretty high up there on the power levels. Unless you're in a very high optimization party, full sorc progression plus full divine progression is likely looked on as a bit crazy.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 01:07 PM
Cool, thanks for the info. Yeah, I definitely want to stay away from gestalt.

How do the Arcane Heirophant and Ultimate Magus work? And where can I find them? Like I said, I like the flavor of the ur-priest but I'm still open to looking at other options. Especially one that lets me play with some other classes.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 01:10 PM
WotC has a PrC finding search, it's pretty handy for looking stuff up.

Ultimate Magus is arcane/arcane IIRC. Im a big fan of the wizard/sorc build, for insane arcane power.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 01:13 PM
Sorry for asking all the encyclopedic questions--but where would I look for all these templates? Like loredrake and dragonwrought? Would I have to be a kobold for this(the favored soul, sorcerer thing). And where is the favored soul found? Is it like a spontaneous cleric or something?

erikun
2010-01-22, 01:15 PM
I'm not familiar with the Dread Necromancer; if it has good Fortitude saves and a Bluff class skill, you might actually get into Ur-Priest earlier than level 9. Then again, if it is a divine spellcaster, then you can't use it with Mystic Thurge (and lose Dread Necro spellcasting upon becoming an Ur-Priest).

Ultimate Magus is from Complete Mage, and can mostly be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3). It lacks the class skills and the progression chart, but you should be able to get an idea of what it can do from the description. A Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1 with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) only loses two Wizard levels from the class: one from the Sorcerer level, and one at level 12, when you are forced to put a caster level into Sorcerer. I personally prefer Wizard 4/Bard 1 for a larger variety of spells known, and Wizard 4/Beguiler 1 works off Intelligence on both sides. I believe Dread Necromancer is a spontaneous class, though, and so doesn't work as well with the Magus. (Wizard 4/Dread Necro 1 will still work just fine, though.)

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 01:15 PM
Ultimate Magus is arcane/arcane IIRC. Im a big fan of the wizard/sorc build, for insane arcane power.

I prefer Wiz/Beguiler. Int synergy, tons more spells known, access to great skills, and it's obvious which schools the Wiz should drop (i.e. Illus, Ench, Evoc.) Start with Beguiler to get a metric ton of skillpoints, and go from there.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 01:16 PM
Sorry for asking all the encyclopedic questions--but where would I look for all these templates? Like loredrake and dragonwrought? Would I have to be a kobold for this(the favored soul, sorcerer thing). And where is the favored soul found? Is it like a spontaneous cleric or something?

Loredrake is from Dragons of Eberron, and Dragonwrought can be found in Races of the Dragon. You would need to be a kobold for dragonwrought(feat not template, btw).

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 01:17 PM
I prefer Wiz/Beguiler. Int synergy, tons more spells known, access to great skills, and it's obvious which schools the Wiz should drop (i.e. Illus, Ench, Evoc.) Start with Beguiler to get a metric ton of skillpoints, and go from there.

Probably much more optimal, but I tend to mostly ignore illusion and enchantment, thus, beguiler has never been a favorite class for me. In terms of total power though? Yeah, it's a winner.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 01:18 PM
You could make it so. However, the save requirements to enter Ur-priest mean you either need to take a level in a non-casting class like monk, or wait quite a while to take it. Either route lowers the cheese factor.

Likewise, going sorc as your arcane...or some other non tier 1 caster lowers the cheese factor. Still quite powerful, mind, but it's a step away from world-breaking craziness.

You can enter Ur-Priest several ways:

Paladin of Tyranny Y/Hexblade X (total 6 levels) with the feats gets saves and skills required.

Wizard 9/Mindbender 1 (which typically uses Mindsight).

Wizard 1/Binder 2 (which sets you up for Anima Mage too).

And a ton of others that I'm likely forgetting.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 01:22 PM
@ Tyndmyr--thanks for the tip about WotC's prc's search. I'll have to look into it.

*Brain begins to fry* Okay, Dread Necro is out if I want an ur priest...umm...where is Beguiler? And what's an Anima mage?

Taking wizard 1/Binder 2 would get me the reqs. For an ur-priest? How would that affect my magical abilities? I've never used a binder but I understand they get to do some cool stuff.

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 01:48 PM
Taking wizard 1/Binder 2 would get me the reqs. For an ur-priest? How would that affect my magical abilities? I've never used a binder but I understand they get to do some cool stuff.

Put simply, Anima Mage is one of the best dual PrCs in the entire game. The flavor synergy is spot on, as well. And when you're done with AM, you can head right back to Wizard without losing too much on the binding side. Built correctly, you can get 9th-level arcane and divine spells, as well as useful vestiges.

AM, like the Binder, is in Tome of Magic.

AustontheGreat1
2010-01-22, 01:49 PM
Has anyone mentioned reserve feats from complete mage? my personal favorite is dimesnional jaunt. though a first level sorcerer with precocious apprentice and fiery burst is pretty potent. infinite 2d6 fiery bursts, at first level! goblins, kobolds and orcs beware...

Edit: in case anyone is wondering, reserve feats work like this: as long as you have a spell with this descriptor, you can basically use a lesser version of some effect related to it an infinite number of times per day. such as fiery burst: as long as you have a spell with the fire descriptor prepared, you can create a fireball which deals 1d6 per level of the spell prepared.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 02:04 PM
I'll have to look into this AM. Sounds pretty cool.

And whoa, can you really get infinite of a certain spell with this "Reserve" feat or whatever? Where can I find that?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 02:05 PM
@ Tyndmyr--thanks for the tip about WotC's prc's search. I'll have to look into it.

*Brain begins to fry* Okay, Dread Necro is out if I want an ur priest...umm...where is Beguiler? And what's an Anima mage?

Taking wizard 1/Binder 2 would get me the reqs. For an ur-priest? How would that affect my magical abilities? I've never used a binder but I understand they get to do some cool stuff.

Ur-Priest doesn't affect Arcane spells or Vestiges, so both are fine. Focused Specialist (Complete Mage) Wizard 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 6/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 would get Dual 9's, Binding as a 9th level Binder, and roughly 11 spells/day/spell level (plus bonus spells). And free Metamagic.

erikun
2010-01-22, 02:12 PM
And whoa, can you really get infinite of a certain spell with this "Reserve" feat or whatever? Where can I find that?
Reserve feats are from Complete Mage. As long as you have at least one spell memorized and uncast, you can use the reserve feats as a "mini-spell" at will.

Fiery Burst works with fire spells; you need at least one fire spell of 2nd level or higher uncast to use it. The damage from Fiery Burst is 1d6 per spell level for the highest remaining spell uncast; that's 3d6 for Fireball and 9d6 for Meteor Swarm. It works just as well for Sorcerers as it does for Wizards; Sorcerers just need to have the fire spell known and an open slot of the appropriate level. Wizards need the spell actually memorized.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 02:12 PM
I'll have to look into this AM. Sounds pretty cool.

And whoa, can you really get infinite of a certain spell with this "Reserve" feat or whatever? Where can I find that?

Complete Mage IIRC. Basically, there is an assortment of reserve feats. Each basically allows you to cast a less powerful version of a spell so long as you have a spell of it uncast.

For example, one allows you to cast a 30ft lightening bolt that does d6 dmg per spell level of your highest uncast lightening bolt. As much as you want.

So, if you're a level 5 caster, this means you can cast 3d6 mini lightening bolts all day long, so long as you leave your regular 5d6 lightening bolt in reserve.

This ones a good option, the mini fireball is a good option, and so is the elemental summoning one.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 02:13 PM
Ur-Priest doesn't affect Arcane spells or Vestiges, so both are fine. Focused Specialist (Complete Mage) Wizard 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 6/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 would get Dual 9's, Binding as a 9th level Binder, and roughly 11 spells/day/spell level (plus bonus spells). And free Metamagic.

Wow...that seems pretty intense--that's rather what I was looking for though. And at level 4 I could be at Wizard 2/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2? This build seems really complex in terms of what level to take when so I might have to aim my sights a little lower. :smallredface:

Edit: And I like the idea of this reserve feat thing if my build has room for an extra feat somewhere. It looks like if I want all these spells from other sources, it's gonna be tricky finding extra feats.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 02:25 PM
Wow...that seems pretty intense--that's rather what I was looking for though. And at level 4 I could be at Wizard 2/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2? This build seems really complex in terms of what level to take when so I might have to aim my sights a little lower. :smallredface:

Edit: And I like the idea of this reserve feat thing if my build has room for an extra feat somewhere. It looks like if I want all these spells from other sources, it's gonna be tricky finding extra feats.

Unfortunately, Ur-Priest's skill requirements prevent entry until 6th level. You need to take Wizard 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 1 before you can take your first level of Ur-Priest.

Take your classes in the exact order I posted the build. You pretty much need to be Human to do this. Your feats:

1st: Spell Focus (Evil)
Human Bonus: Iron Will
3rd: Improved Binding (take your 1st level of Binder here)
6th: Free
9th: Free
12th: Free
15th: Free
18th: Free


I'm sure I'm forgetting a requirement... Spell Focus (Evil) covers your Ur-Priest and Anima Mage problems. You could just pay for Iron Will instead of using a feat slot, but that requires 3000gp and Complete Scoundrel's Magical Locations. Still, probably worth doing. You can afford that at 4th level or so.

Barmacral
2010-01-22, 02:31 PM
Personally, I'm currently playing a combo of Ultimate Magus (page 77 - complete mage) with the base classes of Beguiler / Wizard. Once I hit level 15 or so I'm going to start going into the Archmage PrC as well. As of currently I've capped out my Ultimate Magus with the ECL of 14 (plus the caster levels that UM gives me) and will be continuing with my Wizard levels from here on out.

I also have an absurd amount of spells per day, so its a lot of fun, because I rarely have to worry about running out. That, and I've got a modifier of 8 on my Int, so lots of bonus spells.

Protecar
2010-01-22, 02:36 PM
@ Titan -- Thanks a lot for the information. My DM said he'd give us some gp to invest in items retroactively since we're starting at level 4--so maybe I can get him to let me have the Iron Will for the gp cost and the backstory (it's always nice to have more feats).

@Barm -- What level are you currently and how many spells are you getting to play with? I'm kinda curious how things are working out for your build

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 02:40 PM
@ Titan -- Thanks a lot for the information. My DM said he'd give us some gp to invest in items retroactively since we're starting at level 4--so maybe I can get him to let me have the Iron Will for the gp cost and the backstory (it's always nice to have more feats).

@Barm -- What level are you currently and how many spells are you getting to play with? I'm kinda curious how things are working out for your build

The O.Hole does go well with the Binder's fluff text, so points there.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 02:45 PM
I also have an absurd amount of spells per day, so its a lot of fun, because I rarely have to worry about running out. That, and I've got a modifier of 8 on my Int, so lots of bonus spells.

Oh, that's another excellent point. Lots of your casting stat is another excellent way of getting more spells. There's also a feat(Able Spellcaster?) that lets you get bonus spells as if you had another +1 modifier. Depending on modifier, it may be worth it.

I run my level 10 wizard currently with that feat and a +9 int modifier, and the bonus spells are terrific.


Additionally, for wizard, Focused Specialist is worth it. If you prefer generalist, go Domain Wizard. I like Storm domain. Its not top on the power list, but it lets you cast divine spells as arcane...great for the true generalist.

Eldariel
2010-01-22, 02:49 PM
Oh, that's another excellent point. Lots of your casting stat is another excellent way of getting more spells. There's also a feat(Able Spellcaster?) that lets you get bonus spells as if you had another +1 modifier. Depending on modifier, it may be worth it.

If you're thinking of what I think you're thinking, it's Spellcasting Prodigy from Player's Guide to Faerun.

Barmacral
2010-01-23, 05:54 PM
@Barm -- What level are you currently and how many spells are you getting to play with? I'm kinda curious how things are working out for your build

Currently level 14, which for spells is Wizard - 11 / Beguiler - 9 (Beguiler won't get any higher than this, but at the high levels being able to pick and choose spells is better to have anyways)

This gives me:

Beguiler

0 - 6
1 - 6
2 - 6
3 - 6
4 - 4

Wizard:

0 - 4
1 - 4
2 - 4
3 - 4
4 - 3
5 - 2
6 - 1

Bonus Spells:

1 - 2
2 - 2
3 - 2
4 - 2
5 - 1
6 - 1

And thats at my current level, I get bonus spells all the way up to 8th level as of currently, and I will be upping my INT by at least 2 the next time I pass through a city to give me one bonus 9th level spell when the time comes.

Now, the only catch to this is that you do cap at about 17th level Wizard, which means at 20th level you will have exactly 1 9th level spell, plus any bonus spells you can manage.

Also, a perk to the UM is that you can move a few prepared spells over to your spontaneous list, which opens up more options.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-23, 07:07 PM
Oooo...I definitely like the idea of a Mystic Theurge. I think I'd take as many levels in that as I can. How good would Sorcerer2/Cleric2 be? My intention would be start as that and then go straight into Mystic Theurge. Would that make me useless for a couple levels or would it work out?

I don't want to optimize ridiculously, but I really don't think I know enough to distinguish the line between "really cool" and "really powerful"

Is there any way I could finagle my way into a Mystic Theurge or Ur-priest faster?

Thanks for all the quick advice so far!

Edit: I'm aware that "over-powered" is relative but I don't know exactly where that line is either. I hear ur-priest is over powered, but it sounds really fun to play. I like the idea of being an evil character who detests the gods.

I can get you into Mystic Theurge at level 4, and Ur priest at level 4.

One requires slapping the RAI just a touch. The other involves killing RAI and animating it as a zombie under your command.

My general path into Ur Priest is: Savage Bard 2/Wizard 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Wizard +7

8th level Arcane, 9th level divine, with a smattering of bard.

Without Early Entry, I recommend:

Savage Bard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Savage Bard +2 / XXX 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 (Ur Priest/sublime Chord)

One level to play with, and 9th level arcane and divine casting.