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Truth_Serum
2010-01-22, 11:59 AM
A thought exercise on the physical properties of the net.


Net: A fighting net has small barbs in the weave and a trailing rope to control netted opponents. You use it to entangle enemies.

When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net’s maximum range is 10 feet. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.

An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action).

A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you. For instance, a Small character wielding a net can entangle Tiny, Small, or Medium creatures.

A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a nonproficient one to do so.

All emphasis is mine.

Given the description above, are there any non-homebrew (or Miracle/Wish induced) ways to positively modify the properties of the net, other than those that I list?

EDIT: Suggestions made have been included below.

- Maximum Range of 10 feet: Apply Distance to double the range.
- Trailing Rope: RAW, no length is given. Splicing in additional rope would be necessary for a Distance net, but not for one resized for an Enlarged person.
- Concentration check: Apply Impedence from the Magic Item Compendium, which adds a secondary check (one of three, using the highest bonus) with a DC of 15 + Spell Level. An animated net could grapple, which raises a lot more issues for a caster.
- Escape Artist check: ?
- Hit Points: Apply enhancement bonuses to increase this, as well as to increase the hardness (from 0). The Hardening spell improves hardness only.
- Strength check to burst: Should be high enough. An animated net is a 'creature', and you can't burst a creature.
- Size category: RAW, relies on your size. Make yourself bigger/smaller as necessary. Or animate the net, and use grapple checks instead.

The Strength check to burst (or an old fashioned Sunder) raises another question. Is a "magically enhanced net" still a "magically enhanced net" if it is burst? If not, it seems that Mending or Make Whole would fix the net between encounters. If so, it seems the net would not really merit magical enhancement unless you had gold to burn, or had a way to increase the DC of the Strength check.

Unless I've missed my mark, Sunder is just A Very Bad Thing for any item.

Grumman
2010-01-22, 12:06 PM
Something I've suggested before is to use the feat Hurling Charge with a net or harpoon, either mounted or on foot. It effectively gives you an additional +2 to hit, and makes it harder for them to get away or fight back.

Person_Man
2010-01-22, 12:10 PM
Net + Spell Storing + Shivering Touch = paralyzed enemy.


Something I've suggested before is to use the feat Hurling Charge with a net or harpoon, either mounted or on foot. It effectively gives you an additional +2 to hit, and makes it harder for them to get away or fight back.

Nice catch. I'll have to add it to my melee combo guide. This is a particularly good combo against casters, as they tend to have piss poor Str. Combine it with Mage Slayer, and they're basically screwed.

Ormagoden
2010-01-22, 12:36 PM
One thing you forgot to emphasize was

A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you.

So the sizing enchantment won't do anything.
Just find some way to make yourself bigger and you can use it effectively against larger creatures.

So yes, according to the rules you can be gigantic, equipped with a large net, and still somehow use it on a colossal creature. :smallconfused:

In any case nothing is stopping you from increasing the hardness by having a net made from a special material, oh say Admantium.

Hurling charge is a really good option just make sure to keep one hand free to hold the trailing rope and one to attack. Hurling charge + harpoon is like my favorite combo ever. I can see it having the same synergy with a net.

Spell storing is absolutely genius as is using shivering palm with it.

Shocking grasp also seems appropriate.

Truth_Serum
2010-01-22, 01:13 PM
...use the feat Hurling Charge

I did a quick search before adding this topic, and noticed your post on Hurling Charge. Nice find! Given that a high STR is necessary to control larger creatures, would the feat Brutal Throw be appropriate here? Admittedly, you're using a ranged touch attack, and Brutal Throw might be overkill, but would avoiding MAD while getting bonuses to-hit be worth the feat expenditure?



So yes, according to the rules you can be gigantic, equipped with a large net, and still somehow use it on a colossal creature. :smallconfused:

In any case nothing is stopping you from increasing the hardness by having a net made from a special material, oh say Admantium.

On size:
:smallsmile: I gave that oddity some thought; assuming you could take the size penalty to hit for wielding a much smaller net than appropriate, you (as a gigantic creature) could terrorize those colossal creatures with your Small net. Really odd, but the RAI vs. RAW isn't really worth the visit. Enlarge Person instead of Sizing it is.

Theorycrafting
No formula is given for changing the material, but given a look at silk rope (which has 4 HP, Hardness 0 and closed enough to the net stats), would it be appropriate to have an adamantine mesh net with 40(?) HP, and Hardness 20? The burst (break) DC would be somewhere between 25 (rope net) and 60 (60 is the break DC for an adamantine door, which is 2 inches thick). 60 is far too high, but it's a jump-off point. Either way, it's an increase in the Strength check required to break my precious net.



Spell storing is absolutely genius as is using shivering palm with it.

Shocking grasp also seems appropriate.

I'd considered using Spell Storing for something like Curse or Ray of Exhaustion, assuming the penalties from different sources would stack.

Person_Man
2010-01-22, 02:00 PM
Psychic Warrior would be ideal. They have easy access to Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) and Compression (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Compression), and thus could use their net on anything. Also, the magic/psionic Transparancy rules don't cover caster/manifester levels - otherwise a Psychic Warrior could take Practiced Caster, metamagic feats, PrC which require a PrC, etc.

You know, now that I think about it, you don't need Quickdraw or Hurling Charge (which specifically excludes the ability to use Pounce) for this to work. As long as you have some form of Pounce or Free Movement, you can just Charge/Move up to your enemy, make your first attack throwing a net on them (which doesn't provoke an AoO, unlike ranged weapons), and then finish out your normal attack routine.

Grumman
2010-01-22, 02:04 PM
make your first attack throwing a net on them (which doesn't provoke an AoO, unlike ranged weapons),
A net is a ranged weapon, and so does provoke an AoO.

Person_Man
2010-01-22, 02:10 PM
A net is a ranged weapon, and so does provoke an AoO.

Doh! Right you are. I was reading the weapon description, and not the attack of opportunity chart.

Well then, I guess you can either pick up Karmic Strike and Rob's Gambit just use the AoO as an excuse to get extra attacks, or you can attack with a Net, use Hustle or Press the Advantage or whatever to move in close, and then finish out your attack routine.

ericgrau
2010-01-22, 02:11 PM
It's a matter of action economy. It takes you an action to throw but it takes them an action to get out (or else get slowed and take a hit to dex, which you can also take advantage of). Good thing to use against an enemy who is more important than you, except high level casters. It's only a touch attack so full BAB classes might as well use it without proficiency, which makes it basically free. Note that the concentration check DC is 15 + spell level, so it's not so bad at low levels.

It reminds me of spiderman. Every foe worth his salt can break out of his web immediately, but it's still a nice delay. Or if you want to increase the hardness and HP at higher levels, just make it a magic weapon. Each +1 gives 2 hardness and 10 HP. The strength DC of 25 is already plenty. You need a strength of 40 just to have a 50:50 chance of making that.

jiriku
2010-01-22, 02:44 PM
You would definitely need a longer trailing rope on a net of distance. Of course, getting a longer rope is trivial to do.
Applying dragon bile or a similar Strength-draining contact poison to the net would both make you more likely to win the opposed Strength check and make the opponent less likely to succeed at a Strength check to burst the net. Using a hooked net would allow you to use injury-type poisons as well.
Likewise if you have spells or pets that can inflict Strength penalties/damage/drain, the net benefits from their use.
If you animate your net with animate objects, I see no reason why the net couldn't also attempt grapple checks after you have thrown it on the target, the better to keep them from going anywhere.
For that matter, a Medium animated object has 31 hp, which is 6x the hp total of your basic net. Nice perk.
An animated net could also use grapple checks to try to constrain targets more than one size category smaller than you, when a normal net would be ineffective.
Also now that I think of it, you cannot use Strength checks to burst a creature, so it's a reasonable interpretation to state that making your net an animated object makes it immune to being burst with Strength checks.

Truth_Serum
2010-01-22, 04:00 PM
Note that the concentration check DC is 15 + spell level, so it's not so bad at low levels.

I believe the check is a straight DC 15 (SRD, Concentration DC table), but even so that's not an auto-success for lower levels. Adding Impedence to the net causes a secondary check to be made, and out of the options, Spellcraft would often be the highest bonus, so call the whole thing a DC 15 Concentration check followed by a DC 15 + Spell level Spellcraft check to get your spell off. Still not great for anything but lower levels.


The strength DC of 25 is already plenty. You need a strength of 40 just to have a 50:50 chance of making that.

Fair enough. :smallsmile:




You would definitely need a longer trailing rope on a net of distance. Of course, getting a longer rope is trivial to do.
Applying dragon bile or a similar Strength-draining contact poison to the net would both make you more likely to win the opposed Strength check and make the opponent less likely to succeed at a Strength check to burst the net. Using a hooked net would allow you to use injury-type poisons as well.
Likewise if you have spells or pets that can inflict Strength penalties/damage/drain, the net benefits from their use.
If you animate your net with animate objects, I see no reason why the net couldn't also attempt grapple checks after you have thrown it on the target, the better to keep them from going anywhere.
For that matter, a Medium animated object has 31 hp, which is 6x the hp total of your basic net. Nice perk.
An animated net could also use grapple checks to try to constrain targets more than one size category smaller than you, when a normal net would be ineffective.
Also now that I think of it, you cannot use Strength checks to burst a creature, so it's a reasonable interpretation to state that making your net an animated object makes it immune to being burst with Strength checks.


1. That confirms my thinking.
2. I like this. And if you're devoted enough to the net throwing, apply Spell Storing to it and Ray of Enfeeblement would ruin someone's - particularly a caster's - day.
3. As above.
4-7. A grappling animated net would prevent casting of spells with somatic components (well, you can with a DC 50 + Spell level Concentration check) and would make spellcasting as a whole harder since the DC changes to 20 + Spell level. The only snag I see here is that Animate Object is short duration - long enough for a fight, but short enough that you'd need it cast every encounter.

Best case scenario, you throw your net and hit. Immediately thereafter, the party bard/cleric casts Animate Object and designates the entangled creature. The animated net would, theoretically, already be 'grappling' a creature that it has entangled, which leaves melee free to approach without worrying about AoOs.

EDIT: I bothered to read through the rest of the spell description; Animate Objects can benefit from Permanency.

Great suggestions!

Looking back at my original post, the only thing I am still a bit unsatisfied with is the DC 20 Escape Artist check. Granted, the majority of creatures you would use a net on don't have ranks enough to make escape extremely likely. I may have to be satisfied with that.

Stephen_E
2010-01-23, 10:29 AM
Exotic Weapon Master allows you to use an Exotic Ranged Weapon in combat without attracting an AOO.

This also works with Quick Draw and Bolas to complete the Ranged battlefeild control build. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen E

ericgrau
2010-01-23, 10:55 AM
I believe the check is a straight DC 15 (SRD, Concentration DC table), but even so that's not an auto-success for lower levels.
Actually you add spell level to all concentration check DCs, making the chance of failure 45% at level 1 and dropping by 5% every 2 levels, so that auto-pass doesn't come until level 15ish without feats:


The table below summarizes various types of distractions that cause you to make a Concentration check. If the distraction occurs while you are trying to cast a spell, you must add the level of the spell you are trying to cast to the appropriate Concentration DC

The straight DCs are for other actions like picking a lock. Why they thought to make that the default situation and confuse all casters by putting such important text outside of the table is beyond me. I love 3.5 for being thorough and better thought out than most people give it credit for, but I'm certainly no fan of its organizational skills.

Truth_Serum
2010-01-23, 11:41 AM
Actually you add spell level to all concentration check DCs...

The quote in the OP is directly from the PHB. Why the net would contradict the general rule, I leave up to our esteemed overlords at WotC to explain. In this case, I think specific > general, but I'd be happy to be shown wrong.

Thank you for pointing out the 'casting' clause of concentration checks, though. I'd forgotten about it.

Darrin
2010-01-23, 01:51 PM
One thing you forgot to emphasize was

A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you.

So the sizing enchantment won't do anything.
Just find some way to make yourself bigger and you can use it effectively against larger creatures.


Or you could just use a Lasso (BoED), which works the same way as a net but has no size restriction.

Some other net-related ideas:

A net/lasso is a good weapon for a bard or other non-combat support character to use (yeah, I'm looking at you, monk...). The -4 non-proficiency penalty doesn't matter so much on ranged touch attacks.

Buy a baboon (yeah, I'm still looking at you, monk...). Train it to throw a net/lasso.

An unseen servant can't throw a net, but it can pick it up and fold it (takes 4 rounds for a non-proficient to fold). Obligatory Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) link.

Attach a Glyph Seal (MIC p. 161) to the net, which is cheaper than enchanting it with Spell Storing. Load it up with Belker Claws, Combust, or Touch of Idiocy. Or maybe Incendiary Slime + Phoenix Ash Threat least augment crystal.