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unre9istered
2010-01-22, 01:44 PM
Given that the ECL for the saint (+2) is listed as "artificially low", should the buyoff optional rule be modified for it? If so how?
Just interested in opinions, want to take the template for a character and want to try and sell the buyoff rules to him as well but don't want to be accused of twinkery.

Edit:

Also, when you gain the template you give up the next two levels to repay the LA. Should the DM consider you ECL 8 (assuming you got it at 6th) for that period (because that's what you effectively are) or should he consider your ECL to be what your exp total says it should be?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-22, 01:51 PM
I don't remember much about the Saint template, but the ability of the DM to nerf your powers if you act anything other than Perfect Exalted would seem to be balance enough.

Riffington
2010-01-22, 02:20 PM
RAW, I don't think you can buy it off.

At level 6, you decide to become Saint. Then, instead of getting level 7, you get the Template. And another level passes before you level again.

But to buy off an LA+2 template, you must do so when you first hit 6th level. Too late.

unre9istered
2010-01-22, 02:41 PM
Upon getting the saint template you don't actually have the experience to be 6th level anymore (because you have a +2 LA). You get to keep your levels so as to not be penalized for being a saint but you are effectively below experience for your level. You wouldn't be eligible for the level adjustment buy off until you had enough experience to actually be level 8 without the adjustment.

Buy the logic of you have to buy off the level adjustment when you first gain the level does that mean you can never buy of the LA of Lich if you don't become one before 12th?

Nate the Snake
2010-01-22, 03:04 PM
Once you buy off the Saint template (+2), your minimum ECL is 9.

When you have at least 6 levels, you can pay XP to reduce the LA from +2 to +1 (ECL 8 to 7).
When you have at least 9 levels, you can pay XP to reduce the LA from +1 to +0 (ECL 10 to 9).


RAW, I don't think you can buy it off.

At level 6, you decide to become Saint. Then, instead of getting level 7, you get the Template. And another level passes before you level again.

But to buy off an LA+2 template, you must do so when you first hit 6th level. Too late.

LA buyoff isn't automatic, so you shouldn't miss the chance to do it if you gain LA after you would normally reduce it.


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Emphasis mine.

Kylarra
2010-01-22, 03:11 PM
Well, the counter to your argument comes a bit later.


Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000. This amount is immediately deducted from the character's XP total. The deduction should reduce the character's effective character level (ECL) by 1. (If this deduction would not reduce the character's ECL by 1, the character's XP total is set at the maximum of the level below his current ECL instead.) This XP cost can't be reversed in any way, and the payment must be voluntary on the part of the character. The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment.


Now, arguably as soon as you take the saint template you're eligible to buy it off, but that reasoning does open it up to abuse with other acquired templatess with low LA.

unre9istered
2010-01-22, 03:19 PM
Once you buy off the Saint template (+2), your minimum ECL is 9.

9? Don't you mean 8? Minimum level for saint is 6 and the LA is +2. Have I been calculating ECLs wrong?

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-23, 06:12 PM
Given that the ECL for the saint (+2) is listed as "artificially low"Um...

The saint template is one of TWO THINGS IN ALL OF DND I have ever found that lets good do something better than evil (the other is good lich). Take a look at the LA text again. It is more or less meant to be used as a reward for (being psychotic and) remaining lawful stupid. Yup that's right. The template may legally be given for free if you meet the fluff requirements. Good luck partying with that CN rogue though...

Douglas
2010-01-23, 06:31 PM
The template may legally be given for free if you meet the fluff requirements.
Um, no. Read the Sainthood section of BoED on page 29.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-27, 02:47 AM
Um, no. Read the Sainthood section of BoED on page 29.What I'm saying is because the DM-adjudicated way has different LA rules, if given at ECL20 (with a normal won't-touch-epic-with-a-stick DM) then those next two levels never come. Oh darn. I guess its free.

Note: the prereqs are steep however...