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View Full Version : Gestualt class advice.



DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 02:09 PM
So I'm starting a new campaign soon its going to be Gestault starting at lvl 12.

I like to cast...I mean love to cast. Generally I play a control wizard. I've played some melee classes before too though.

I'm looking for class suggestion with which I can maintain casting prowess but still take advantage of gestualt rules. The catch in this case is that one of my classes must be core, the other can be anything...I've played Psionic/warrior before so that's out.

My stats are already rolled and I've got a 17 a bunch of 14s and a couple 12s.

Any interesting suggestions: I'm considering Battle Mage + Ranger to be a ranged DPS master + have decent AC, but I'm not too sure at this point and I'm looking for suggestions.

Sanguine
2010-01-22, 02:12 PM
Now I'm not that great of an optimizer so take anything I say with a grain of salt but Warblade//Wizard has some good synergy and makes a nice Gish.

KurtKatze
2010-01-22, 02:16 PM
How about ninja?

Wisdom to ac, sneak attack on touch and ranged touch attacks, nice skillmonky action due to the high int.

Or maybe a monk with the Kung-Fu genius feat for int to ac. In gestalt i would't mix 2 casters. One full wizard is surely enough.

erikun
2010-01-22, 02:18 PM
I think that at that level, //Factorium will start giving you extra actions. I don't quite recall for sure, though. There is also the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), which can give up castings of Haste for extra standard actions.

You'll have Schism at that level, so a Wizard//Psion can cast spells and throw around powers at the same time.

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 02:18 PM
How about ninja?

Wisdom to ac, sneak attack on touch and ranged touch attacks, nice skillmonky action due to the high int.

Or maybe a monk with the Kung-Fu genius feat for int to ac. In gestalt i would't mix 2 casters. One full wizard is surely enough.

Something like a limited spell list armored caster would negate armor penalties for for my wizard spells though, no? Which is why I was considering Battle Mage + Wizard. Although I've never tried casting in armor so I dunno if that's necessary.

Duke of URL
2010-01-22, 02:20 PM
The most important thing about gestalt character optimization is to pick classes that synergize well with each other.

Basically, you have a lot more abilities, but the same number of actions. So what you want to focus on is maximizing your use of actions, and pick up as many passive abilities as possible.

So, first focus on a primary role -- do you want to be weapon-based, and if so, melee or ranged? A "blaster" caster? Battlefield control? Etc.

After that, find a main class that does the job and a complimentary class to fill in the gaps.


Something like a limited spell list armored caster would negate armor penalties for for my wizard spells though, no? Which is why I was considering Battle Mage + Wizard. Although I've never tried casting in armor so I dunno if that's necessary.

Nope, the ignore ASF feature applies only to that class.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 02:20 PM
Wizard is your core class. Bard actually doesn't make a bad opposing class at first level. Qualifies you for Sublime Chord if you want it, and gives a bucketfull of juicy skill points.

Anything also int based is pretty aweome, really. Or you can stack dips of interesting things to boost your monk. A few extra hp, abilities via monk, great saves, etc.

Zaydos
2010-01-22, 02:21 PM
Something like a limited spell list armored caster would negate armor penalties for for my wizard spells though, no? Which is why I was considering Battle Mage + Wizard. Although I've never tried casting in armor so I dunno if that's necessary.

Most all classes that can ignore armor for spell failure have a caveat that it only works on spells cast as that class not from other classes.

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 02:36 PM
I think that at that level, //Factorium will start giving you extra actions. I don't quite recall for sure, though. There is also the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), which can give up castings of Haste for extra standard actions.

You'll have Schism at that level, so a Wizard//Psion can cast spells and throw around powers at the same time.

Swiftblade looks sweet but it looks like I would have to prestige it from wizard which will cost me a few spells and means I would have to select another core class...something melee I assume. I'd be giving up spell levels but all that haste manipulation does sound cool.

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 02:38 PM
The most important thing about gestalt character optimization is to pick classes that synergize well with each other.

Basically, you have a lot more abilities, but the same number of actions. So what you want to focus on is maximizing your use of actions, and pick up as many passive abilities as possible.

So, first focus on a primary role -- do you want to be weapon-based, and if so, melee or ranged? A "blaster" caster? Battlefield control? Etc.

After that, find a main class that does the job and a complimentary class to fill in the gaps.



Nope, the ignore ASF feature applies only to that class.

Close up or ranged would work out...Like I said I tend to stay more toward the control aspect of casting, although recently its been ticking me off...too many enemies making saves and me running out of spells, which I why its nice to have a DPS backup.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-22, 02:39 PM
Swiftblade looks sweet but it looks like I would have to prestige it from wizard which will cost me a few spells and means I would have to select another core class...something melee I assume. I'd be giving up spell levels but all that haste manipulation does sound cool.

Nopes.

Wizard 5//Warblade 5, then into Wizard/Swiftblade is perfectly legal. The =1 Spellcasting Level doesn't stack with itself, but you retain full casting progression.

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 02:43 PM
Nopes.

Wizard 5//Warblade 5, then into Wizard/Swiftblade is perfectly legal. The =1 Spellcasting Level doesn't stack with itself, but you retain full casting progression.

I've played War blade before...it's freaking awesome. (warblade/scion, I said fighter only because I forgot what warblade was called)

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 03:07 PM
Nopes.

Wizard 5//Warblade 5, then into Wizard/Swiftblade is perfectly legal. The =1 Spellcasting Level doesn't stack with itself, but you retain full casting progression.

This might be exactly what I do, it would give me extra actions, total battlefield mobility, all my spells and AC...You guys think light armor like elven plate would screw me in terms of casting ability?

Faleldir
2010-01-22, 03:10 PM
If you're a Wizard, any armor at all will screw you... but you'll have so many miss chances you won't need AC.
Have you considered Duskblade//Factotum?

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-22, 03:12 PM
You could probably slip a level of spellsword in there, couldn't you?

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 03:12 PM
If you're a Wizard, any armor at all will screw you... but you'll have so many miss chances you won't need AC.

Then maybe rogue/wiz 5 swiftblade/wiz 15

Or a good rogue esq class from outside core, or barbarian? Taking WarBlade and not having AC seems like a waste when I can get rage or sneak attacks.

Sanguine
2010-01-22, 03:14 PM
Then maybe rogue/wiz 5 swiftblade/wiz 15

Or a good rogue esq class from outside core, or barbarian? Taking WarBlade and not having AC seems like a waste when I can get rage or sneak attacks.

There's that one Iron Heart Maneuver that let's you make an attack roll in place of your AC and recovering Warblade maneuvers is pretty easy.

Mando Knight
2010-01-22, 03:16 PM
And then, if you're willing to give up Arcane casting for another kind of casting, Monk (or Swordsage)//Cleric is a good gestalt ClericZilla build...

Glimbur
2010-01-22, 03:16 PM
This might be exactly what I do, it would give me extra actions, total battlefield mobility, all my spells and AC...You guys think light armor like elven plate would screw me in terms of casting ability?

Make it Mithral and Twilight and you should be ok. See if you can wiggle in a level of Spellsword before or after Swiftblade to drop ASF.

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 03:31 PM
If you're a Wizard, any armor at all will screw you... but you'll have so many miss chances you won't need AC.
Have you considered Duskblade//Factotum?

Those are both outside core so I would not be able to take both.

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 03:33 PM
And then, if you're willing to give up Arcane casting for another kind of casting, Monk (or Swordsage)//Cleric is a good gestalt ClericZilla build...

Another guy going cleric + Favored soul so I don't want to tread on him.

DudestMonk
2010-01-22, 03:35 PM
Make it Mithral and Twilight and you should be ok. See if you can wiggle in a level of Spellsword before or after Swiftblade to drop ASF.

why mithral isn't that just light armor as well?...Elven plate is light but preforms like heavy, no?

Mando Knight
2010-01-22, 03:36 PM
Then go Druid//Monk. Eye of the Tiger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu9xx5Ri278)... literally. :smalltongue:

Sanguine
2010-01-22, 03:39 PM
why mithral isn't that just light armor as well?...Elven plate is light but preforms like heavy, no?

Mithral reduces ASF by 10%(as well as a few other nifty things), Twilight also reduces ASF by 10% put both on a Chain Shirt and it has an ASF of 0.

Zaydos
2010-01-22, 03:43 PM
Mithril twilight chain shirt has no arcane spell failure, nor do mithril bucklers. If you want to go gish you could also see about Kung-Fu Genius Monk 2/Crusader 18//wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/wizard PrC 10. If you're good aligned you could get +13 AC from Greater Luminous Armor and +9 from Shield spells and keep Int to AC. Then polymorph into something for an insane AC. Make sure you pump your saves a bit, maybe even taking a level of swordsage for the Diamond Mind concentration in place of saves maneuvers because the DM will use save or lose abilities on you if you do this and mettle combined with evasion is nice to have if they do; especially with Concentration instead of saves.

JaronK
2010-01-22, 04:37 PM
Wizard//Factotum would let you get away with anything. You want to fight? Just cast a few buffs and go nuts (Factotums can already mix it up in melee). You want to cast spells? Have some extra actions. And hey, you can even ignore SR whenever you want.

JaronK

Temotei
2010-01-22, 05:04 PM
Or even psion//factotum, if psion is considered core.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-22, 05:12 PM
If you wanted to go swiftblade, tehcnically yo'd only need to take wizard for the 4 off levels to maintain full casting capability, leaving 6 more levels free for warblade (at least, that sounds like that's how it works).

Also, if you apply Feycraft and Githcraft (both inexpensive armor templates from the DMGII) to a suit of armor you can reduce the ASF by another 10%. Combine that with the first level of spellsword and you might be able ot get away with fullplate (ASF 35%). The trick is getting your DM to allow a suit that's both feycraft and githcraft.

Jack_Simth
2010-01-22, 08:24 PM
Then go Druid//Monk. Eye of the Tiger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu9xx5Ri278)... literally. :smalltongue:
Replace Monk with either Ninja or Swordsage - both get Wis to AC, and a better set of class features (Druid's core, so that restriction is handled).

If you want to powergame things some, try:

Sorcerer-X//Monk-(X/2)/Paladin(or variant)-(X/2) - taking Ascetic Mage and Ascetic Knight.

The Ascetic feats get rid of your multiclassing restrictions. Paladin gives you Charisma to saves. Thanks to Ascetic Mage, Monk gives you Charisma to AC. Sorcerer gives you Charisma-based spellcasting.

You'll be very SAD, and that tends to make the DM sad.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-22, 08:40 PM
Now I'm not that great of an optimizer so take anything I say with a grain of salt but Warblade//Wizard has some good synergy and makes a nice Gish.

Don't do it....it's a bad plan. Bookkeeping will kill you.

It's very very effective, though...take a level of spellsword (on the wiz side) to mitigate ASF. You should be able to still use Light armor, and do a lot in melee and out of melee.

Personally, if you've got the melee covered in the party, and you know you'll get ample occasions to rest, go with Wizard//Factotum, and grap a lot of Inspiration. You can literally burn most of your high level spell slots in one round, and nuke an entire encounter.

JaronK
2010-01-22, 08:44 PM
Replace Monk with either Ninja or Swordsage - both get Wis to AC, and a better set of class features (Druid's core, so that restriction is handled).

Eh, I'd rather have Monk than Ninja if you're going that route, as Unarmed Strike and Flurry with Wild Shape is an awesome combination. Unarmed Swordsage would certainly be better though.

JaronK

Jack_Simth
2010-01-22, 08:59 PM
Eh, I'd rather have Monk than Ninja if you're going that route, as Unarmed Strike and Flurry with Wild Shape is an awesome combination. Unarmed Swordsage would certainly be better though.

JaronK

Ah, you don't get the why of ninja.

Wilshape gives you Pounce and many natural weapons - which means you can Full Attack at the end of a Charge, with a pretty high chance of hitting on multiple attacks.

Ninja gives you sudden strike bonus damage if your opponent can't see you when you hit. It also gives you swift-action invisibility (based on Wisdom).

Between the two, a ... 12th level, he said was the starting point? ... Druid//Ninja can turn into a Dire Lion, and Charge someone for five attacks (including Charge bonuses) at Claw+17, Claw+17, Bite+12, Rake+17, Rake+17 for 1d6+7+6d6, 1d6+7+6d6, 1d8+3+6d6, 1d6+3+6d6, 1d6+3+6d6 - a limited (but reasonably large) number of times per day. Oh yes, and that's ignoring feats (such as Multiattack, which is useful for Druids), and spells (such as Greater Magic Fang, which both increases to-hit and damage by 3 points per attack at that level - if you spam it that much, of course).

JaronK
2010-01-22, 09:13 PM
Ah, you don't get the why of ninja.

Ninja gives you sudden strike bonus damage if your opponent can't see you when you hit. It also gives you swift-action invisibility (based on Wisdom).

There's that... but I think I'd rather have a whole bunch more attacks (since you can have iterative attacks with Unarmed Strikes, but not Natural Weapons) which combine with very high strength to do a huge damage (even against crit immunes and the like).

Consider that your Dire Lion as a Druid//Monk would lose the d6s of bonus damage, but add in four more attacks that each do IIRC about 2d8+7 damage, and would always do that damage, even against enemies that have Blindsight or see invisible or are immune to sneak attack for a variety of reasons. Also, Improved Trip and Improved Grapple as bonus feats are actually quite good on a Wild Shaping Druid.

I mean, I know why you'd say Ninja, I just think that for this purpose, Monk is better. Of course, Monk/Shou Disciple is better still for the increased BAB.

JaronK

Amphetryon
2010-01-22, 09:17 PM
DN//Crusader.

Jack_Simth
2010-01-22, 09:22 PM
There's that... but I think I'd rather have a whole bunch more attacks (since you can have iterative attacks with Unarmed Strikes, but not Natural Weapons) which combine with very high strength to do a huge damage (even against crit immunes and the like).

Consider that your Dire Lion as a Druid//Monk would lose the d6s of bonus damage, but add in four more attacks that each do IIRC about 2d8+7 damage, and would always do that damage, even against enemies that have Blindsight or see invisible or are immune to sneak attack for a variety of reasons. Also, Improved Trip and Improved Grapple as bonus feats are actually quite good on a Wild Shaping Druid.

I mean, I know why you'd say Ninja, I just think that for this purpose, Monk is better. Of course, Monk/Shou Disciple is better still for the increased BAB.

JaronK

Subbing Monk for Ninja makes your attack routine look like:

Unarmed Strike+17, Unarmed Strike+17, Unarmed Strike+17, Unarmed Strike+12, Claw+12, Claw+12, Bite+12, Rake+17, Rake+17 for 3d6+7, 3d6+7, 3d6+7, 3d6+7, 1d6+3, 1d6+3, 1d8+3, 1d6+3, 1d6+3

However, there's a proviso:
Your DM pretty much has to ignore the line in Flurry of Blows that states:
"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons". If your DM does not ignore that line, you end up with just: Unarmed Strike+17, Unarmed Strike+17, Unarmed Strike+17, Unarmed Strike+12 for 3d6+7, 3d6+7, 3d6+7, 3d6+7: because natural weapons aren't on the list.

The Druid//Monk's full attack is a lot more DM-dependent than is the Druid//Ninja's full attack.

JaronK
2010-01-22, 09:32 PM
I believe that's talking about the attacks specifically from the flurry. The bonus attacks, that is. Your natural weapons are in addition to the flurry attacks.

From there, we'd expect to see Multiattack, Improved Natural Weapon (Unarmed Strike) and Superior Unarmed Strike. So... LOTS of attacks.

JaronK

Jack_Simth
2010-01-22, 09:50 PM
I believe that's talking about the attacks specifically from the flurry. The bonus attacks, that is. Your natural weapons are in addition to the flurry attacks.

That is one belief.

However, it's not your belief that matters, nor is it mine that matters - it's the specific DM's that matters. It's very easy for someone to look at that and say "you't can't use Flurry of Blows if you're also using an off-hand weapon and the two-weapon fighting chain; nor can you use natural weapons" - but whether or not the DM in charge of the game says that is up to the DM.

Which makes the Druid//Monk's strength much more dependent on the specific DM than is the Druid//Ninja's strength.


From there, we'd expect to see Multiattack, Improved Natural Weapon (Unarmed Strike) and Superior Unarmed Strike. So... LOTS of attacks.

JaronK

Oh, yes, you can make a strong Monk ... if you invest heavily in feats, and have something to cover many of the Monk's weaknesses (which Druid covers very well), and the DM's interpretations are favorable, sure.