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Quellian-dyrae
2010-01-22, 02:42 PM
So there seems to be a tendency in D&D (3.5, anyway) that greater reliability comes at the expense of greater power, which causes several of the balance issues. I was wondering if a system pitting reliability against versatility, rather than against power, would bring things more into balance.

I'm presenting five different spellcasting options below. My question is, how do they balance against each other? For this purpose, please make the following assumptions:

1. Explicitly cheesy options are disallowed (the at-will guy, for example, can't chain time stops as long as he wants).
2. Spells with expensive material components, focuses, or XP costs still require them.
3. All else is equal (as if there were five functionally identical classes, the sole difference being these spellcasting styles).
4. The characters are able to cast spells up to a spell level appropriate to their level, as per wizards (so 3rd level spells at 5th level, 8th and 15th, etc).

The casting styles are:

1. A character able to cast ANY spell of any spell level it can cast, chosen upon casting the spell, but only one spell per spell level per day.

2. A character able to cast any spell of any spell level it can cast, with multiple spells of each spell level per day (generally 1-2 of its best, scaling to 4-6 of its weakest), but choosing its spells at the start of the day and only able to cast each spell once a day (in other words, basically a standard prepared caster).

3. A character able to cast multiple spells of each spell level per day, but unable to change its spells once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely). In other words, basically a spontaneous caster, but without all the extra restrictions like slower spell level progression, and with spells known and spells/day equal to a prepared caster's spells/day.

4. A character able to cast from a very small list of spells (maybe 1-3 per SL), unable to change its spells once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely), but able to cast one spell per spell level per encounter.

5. A character able to cast only a single spell per spell level, unable to change them once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely), but able to cast them at will.

Glimbur
2010-01-22, 03:07 PM
Option 1 is just not enough spells/day. If there are four, four round fights per day, then even a 20th level caster can cast spells for only 10 of the 16 rounds... and that's counting a cantrip.

Option 2 is workable.

Option 3 is also workable. I personally like it better, but prepared v spontaneous in a vacuum doesn't have a clear answer.

Option 4 has much better endurance than 2 or 3, and it would be feasible to take only three spells per spell level. That makes it much harder to select spells, but I think it would be playable.

Option 5 is also interesting, but until third level you only have one spell. I wouldn't play it, but the at-will aspect means it might work with very crafty spell selection and use. I would expect lots of illusions, summons, and other spells that can do more than one thing.

tl;dr Throw out 1 and 5, maybe 4 only gets two spells/spell level.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 03:35 PM
The casting styles are:

1. A character able to cast ANY spell of any spell level it can cast, chosen upon casting the spell, but only one spell per spell level per day.

2. A character able to cast any spell of any spell level it can cast, with multiple spells of each spell level per day (generally 1-2 of its best, scaling to 4-6 of its weakest), but choosing its spells at the start of the day and only able to cast each spell once a day (in other words, basically a standard prepared caster).

3. A character able to cast multiple spells of each spell level per day, but unable to change its spells once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely). In other words, basically a spontaneous caster, but without all the extra restrictions like slower spell level progression, and with spells known and spells/day equal to a prepared caster's spells/day.

4. A character able to cast from a very small list of spells (maybe 1-3 per SL), unable to change its spells once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely), but able to cast one spell per spell level per encounter.

5. A character able to cast only a single spell per spell level, unable to change them once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely), but able to cast them at will.

Im going to start off by saying that all these seem somewhat balanced, which is a good start.

1. Is not flexible at all at low levels. Decent nuker. At higher levels, the added flexibility from multiple spell levels is helpful, but it seems strictly inferior to the prepared caster, who can replicate it, and has added preparation options.

2. Wizzie, basically. Your power benchmark. Probably close to 3.

3. Pretty powerful. Basically a sorc/wizard hybrid. I'd play it.

4. Basically, this is 3, but with the added restrictions from 1. Would not play.

5. Good at lower levels. Mostly pointless at high levels.

So, you end up with 2,3 and 5 as viable options, with 2 and 3 much better off.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 04:09 PM
1. A character able to cast ANY spell of any spell level it can cast, chosen upon casting the spell, but only one spell per spell level per day.

Sounds like an Erudite, but with the DM completely misinterpreting the Unique Powers/Day mechanic. Alternatively, 4E-style powers with more uses/day for Dailies.


2. A character able to cast any spell of any spell level it can cast, with multiple spells of each spell level per day (generally 1-2 of its best, scaling to 4-6 of its weakest), but choosing its spells at the start of the day and only able to cast each spell once a day (in other words, basically a standard prepared caster).

Main reason the Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Archivist is considered OPed is because they have this kind of flexibility coupled with access to an unlimited (or nearly unlimited) number of choices. If the DM controls what spells they can prepare very strictly, it would be balanced. The problem is that there's too many spells to sift through to do so without missing something. This style is still going to be very powerful.


3. A character able to cast multiple spells of each spell level per day, but unable to change its spells once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely). In other words, basically a spontaneous caster, but without all the extra restrictions like slower spell level progression, and with spells known and spells/day equal to a prepared caster's spells/day.

Depends too much on what spells get chosen. Bad choices, or too few choices, means the class is horrifically restrictive. IE Shadowcaster and Battle Sorc.


4. A character able to cast from a very small list of spells (maybe 1-3 per SL), unable to change its spells once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely), but able to cast one spell per spell level per encounter.

An additional restriction to the Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro? Not that good.


5. A character able to cast only a single spell per spell level, unable to change them once chosen (or only able to do so very rarely), but able to cast them at will.

Proven to be OPed. Anyone who reads the Batman Guide or TMLVL20's Handbooks will be able to select a list of spells that can take them from 1-20 fairly effortlessly.

ericgrau
2010-01-22, 04:33 PM
Hmm, how about the max spell level progresses at half the normal rate for "at will" casting? Thus it caps at 5th level spells at level 17. And by "at will" I mean "at will" for most purposes. There is actually a set limit that is very high to prevent abuse. Maybe 5 times per minute, 10 times per hour, and 20 times per day (whichever is least). To encourage the casting of lower level spells, you could allow more of them. So maybe the wizard will want to spam his best spell a lot, but since he only gets 1 there may be several situations where a lower level spell is better.

Limiting it to once per spell level per encounter is also interesting. So then maybe your first spell is very powerful, but each round after that it's like giving the wizard LA +2.