PDA

View Full Version : The reason humans dominate and Elves aren't hyper-advanced Einsteins.



Jergmo
2010-01-22, 06:46 PM
"I gotta be honest, I kinda like the idea of death. Because if I could live forever I'd probably never do half of the things I do every single day... knowing I'll die someday." - Vanda M

That is all.

Harperfan7
2010-01-22, 06:48 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much it.

(Still like elves better)

drengnikrafe
2010-01-22, 06:52 PM
Half-Orcs. Shorter lifespans than humans, shouldn't they get even more done in that time? Or full-orcs.

Swordgleam
2010-01-22, 06:54 PM
Half-Orcs. Shorter lifespans than humans, shouldn't they get even more done in that time? Or full-orcs.

Human are the perfect balance between lifespan and intelligence, apparently.

Jergmo
2010-01-22, 06:56 PM
Human are the perfect balance between lifespan and intelligence, apparently.

This. Your average orc in a sedentary lifestyle wouldn't be able to aspire to much more than a farmer or laborer. Something along those lines.

Koury
2010-01-22, 06:56 PM
Besides, Half-Orc as a race literally get an Int penalty

PirateMonk
2010-01-22, 06:57 PM
Also, elves don't reproduce nearly as often, so there are many fewer of them. Each individual elf may have a thousand times the time of an individual human to accomplish things, but there are only a millionth or less the number of elves there are humans, so humans as a species accomplish more in total.

Zore
2010-01-22, 07:05 PM
Or writers are both human, therefore biased, and unimaginative. :smallwink:

Harperfan7
2010-01-22, 07:09 PM
Or writers are both human, therefore biased, and unimaginative. :smallwink:

Or this.hlkjhlkjh

Temotei
2010-01-22, 07:11 PM
I was going to say elves are lazy, but this works.

Gnorman
2010-01-22, 07:19 PM
Elves are too busy being killed by humans they've angered with their arrogance and superiority complexes. If they would just shut up about the whole damn thing, maybe we'd let them live.

But probably not.

Death to the elves!

Eldariel
2010-01-22, 07:23 PM
Or writers are both human, therefore biased, and unimaginative. :smallwink:

Hmm, this is a good alternative to my theory that Humans as a race to exist in fantasy solely to act as breeding machines for every race in existence.

Frankly, it seems like Humans' shtick isn't so much to dominate than to be spawning grounds for Mindflayers and casual sex partners for fiends and dragons and celestials and everything else that needs an easy distraction.

I'm pretty convinced the only reason the race exists in Generic FR Settings is due to Illithids messing up with history to maximize the amount of hosts they've got available.

Drakyn
2010-01-22, 07:32 PM
Or writers are both human, therefore biased, and unimaginative. :smallwink:

I'd say it's a compromise between this and those people that want an ultra-perfect-special-awesome species of beautiful people that live forever and they're soooo coooool. So we get a species that can be easily and conveniently swapped from either perfect mcawesome (satisfying the first group) or a bunch of haughty imbeciles, which makes other people satisfied by reminding them that humans are bestest. Win/win!

Soranar
2010-01-22, 07:50 PM
actually, when you think about it, elves are quite dumb

humans learn their professions (and classes, see starting age per class) in 1 human lifetime and get a bonus to skillpoints to boot with average intelligence

elves, who spend most of their free time reciting poetry, playing with swords, bow and arrows, do the same with a much larger amount of time a human does

while they are marginally smarter than orcs and half-orcs, elves really aren't that smart , they just get way more time to learn and waste a LOT of their time doing pointless things just for fun/entertainment (which probably means geeks have a lot in common with them)

although, when you think about, just killing time must be an elven talent when you live as long as they do

now consider how orcs are not sedentary and are often illiterate, the fact that their int penalty is only -2 (and take the same amount of time a human does to learn their profession) means they're probably smarter than you'D think, or at least focused

kobolds on the other hand are scary smart...(considering their lifespan and how early they get their bonus to mental stats)

taltamir
2010-01-22, 07:55 PM
"I gotta be honest, I kinda like the idea of death. Because if I could live forever I'd probably never do half of the things I do every single day... knowing I'll die someday." - Vanda M

That is all.

pah, this is just a defense mechanism... people convince themselves that they love being poor, they love aging to death, etc...
Where they are just lying to themselves because they don't want to admit the absolute terror of it.

megabyter5
2010-01-22, 08:14 PM
The reason elves take over a hundred years to become a first level Wizard is the same reason you can't teach calculus to a five year old: They need to mature to an appropriate mental level to comprehend the spell energy slash mathematics.

taltamir
2010-01-22, 08:15 PM
The reason elves take over a hundred years to become a first level Wizard is the same reason you can't teach calculus to a five year old: They need to mature to an appropriate mental level to comprehend the spell energy slash mathematics.

http://challenging-gifted-children.suite101.com/article.cfm/best_homeschool_advanced_math_for_young_gifted

Thajocoth
2010-01-22, 08:25 PM
It's really to give people an incentive to play a Human. I'm already a human IRL. Why would I want to pretend to be one? So they make them the most versatile and give them benefits that work regardless of what type of character you want, so they're always an option and people might pick them. I still don't...

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-22, 08:29 PM
http://challenging-gifted-children.suite101.com/article.cfm/best_homeschool_advanced_math_for_young_gifted

You're only proving his point; normal elves still have to wait a while to develop the mental capacities for calculus.

Unless all young children are gifted and can learn to differentiate equations.

deuxhero
2010-01-22, 08:33 PM
I prefer the explanation they are mentally stunted myself.

taltamir
2010-01-22, 08:45 PM
I prefer the explanation they are mentally stunted myself.

human power!
why would you play a human? because humans are awesome and elves are little sissies thats why!

Yukitsu
2010-01-22, 08:47 PM
The reason elves take over a hundred years to become a first level Wizard is the same reason you can't teach calculus to a five year old: They need to mature to an appropriate mental level to comprehend the spell energy slash mathematics.

They're mentally mature at 25 dude. :smallconfused:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-22, 08:47 PM
I really do prefer the eladrin-type elves.

The Deej
2010-01-22, 08:57 PM
It's also possible that the elven elders insist on everyone maintaining their traditions so long as they are alive, and they just won't die. That could explain why they don't progress nearly as fast as humans.

snoopy13a
2010-01-22, 09:01 PM
It depends on what society values. If the society values poetry then the best and brightest will become poets. If the society values science then the best and brightest will become scientists. If the society values investment banking then the best and brightest will want to work at Goldman Sachs :smalltongue:

chiasaur11
2010-01-22, 09:03 PM
It depends on what society values. If the society values poetry then the best and brightest will become poets. If the society values science then the best and brightest will become scientists. If the society values investment banking then the best and brightest will want to work at Goldman Sachs :smalltongue:

And if the society values being an arrogant prick?

Fendalus
2010-01-22, 09:03 PM
They're mentally mature at 25 dude. :smallconfused:

That depends on the source. In the basic PHB, they are adults (and able to take class levels) at 110 years old, while humans are adults at 15 (by their definition of adult). So yeah, Screw You Elves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYouElves).

*Edited because I fail at linking*

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 09:08 PM
My thought on why the humans are the dominant race is that they breed like rabbits and the "savage" races are to busy killing each other to catch up. Dwarves are xenophobic and keep to themselves, halflings just can't settle down long enough to start a powerful civilization, theres no such thing as gnomes, and elves are more interested in philosophy than engineering.

Prime32
2010-01-22, 09:10 PM
That depends on the source. In the basic PHB, they are adults (and able to take class levels) at 110 years old, while humans are adults at 15 (by their definition of adult). So yeah, Screw You Elves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Screw You Elves).

You need to get rid of the spaces in that link.


Yeah, I did some work on a campaign setting before and I tried to justify the population by giving elves a more complex reproductive process. In this case they're the result of humans being bonded with a parasitic plant at a young age - the prick/retardation part comes from this plant interfering with puberty so that they're all basically big kids... and therefore sterile, so they're dependent on kidnapping to increase their numbers.

Gamerlord
2010-01-22, 09:10 PM
I always thought elves are just too stupid to survive very long, that and in my most recent campaign world elves are at war with kobolds. They obviously are losing.

Barlen
2010-01-22, 09:13 PM
Orcs with shorter lifespans and lower intelligence breeds the idea that you should take what you want by force NOW. Life is very short and you dont have time to do it yourself.

Elves live forever in comparison. As long as life is pleasant and peaceful they can live quiet blissful lives and have little motivation to achieve quickly. There is always tomorrow. And our ancestors left us with all we needed. Why rush, stop and smell the flowers. You can research that spell tomorrow.....or ten years from now. No hurry, enjoy life, you have all the time in the world.

Humans don't live forever but they live long enough to achieve something before they die. They are more motivated to get things done than the elves but they don't _necessarily_ need to resort to violence to get what they want. Some humans can however be just as violent as (and impatient) Orcs.

Lamech
2010-01-22, 09:29 PM
I thought that elves just had stuipid traditions (like learning how to use a good number of redundent weapons) and so instead of learning 7? useful feats they learn 7 semi-useless feats. Regardless do to recent advancements in the study of chaos magic and shuffling, elves can now dump the useless martial weaponknowledge for useful knowledge.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 09:30 PM
If humans are the paragons of development, then DnD has even more of a crapsack world than I thought.

I am a devoted follower of the Humans are Bastards school of thought.

dragonfan6490
2010-01-22, 09:35 PM
If humans are the paragons of development, then DnD has even more of a crapsack world than I thought.

I am a devoted follower of the Humans are Bastards school of thought.

Quoted for truth.

Temotei
2010-01-22, 09:40 PM
If humans are the paragons of development, then DnD has even more of a crapsack world than I thought.

I am a devoted follower of the Humans are Bastards school of thought.

They get a bonus feat.

Elves (unless you have dark chaos shuffle) get nothing comparable to that.

Frosty
2010-01-22, 09:46 PM
You know, logically speaking, DWARVES should really rule the world. Seriously. They're hard-working AND relatively long-lived.

Plus they have more racial traits than you can shake a 10 ft-pole at. And many of them good.

chiasaur11
2010-01-22, 09:48 PM
If humans are the paragons of development, then DnD has even more of a crapsack world than I thought.

I am a devoted follower of the Humans are Bastards school of thought.

Sometimes. Other times humans are capable of amazing feats of, well, not-bastardry. Compared to, say, dolphins and chimps, we're saints.

Sure, we could be better. We should be better.

But there's a difference between that and saying we're all bastards. And to share an opinion with Heinlein, even if it's not to such an extreme degree, a certain degree of bastardry is a virtue when used to defend yourself and yours.

Temotei
2010-01-22, 09:53 PM
Sometimes. Other times humans are capable of amazing feats of, well, not-bastardry. Compared to, say, dolphins and chimps, we're saints.

Sure, we could be better. We should be better.

But there's a difference between that and saying we're all bastards. And to share an opinion with Heinlein, even if it's not to such an extreme degree, a certain degree of bastardry is a virtue when used to defend yourself and yours.

The world will end in 2012 when the Vampire Robot Nazis who are also Zombies attack. The obvious way to stop this attack would be Chuck Norris, but unfortunately he too is a Vampire robot Nazi who is also a zombie.

In the struggle to save the world, dolphins with laser beams on their heads will team up with Flying Raptor Jesus to defeat Chuck Norris and the Vampire Robot Nazis who are also zombies. The battle with be close, but in the end we will lose and everyone will die. The end.

Fendalus
2010-01-22, 10:03 PM
You know, logically speaking, DWARVES should really rule the world. Seriously. They're hard-working AND relatively long-lived.

Plus they have more racial traits than you can shake a 10 ft-pole at. And many of them good.

By Races of the Dragon, it seems like kobolds are even more suited to this. They are more industrious than dwarves, live longer than humans (With no adventurers, anyway), breed as fast as rodents, and are adults at 6 years old. Only reason they don't is because they seem to be slowly building up their control and don't seem to mind serving/using as expensive guards/worshiping dragons, which seem to be one of the more "Why should I care about tech or wizardy in the lesser races when I'm a DRAGON?"

In regards to the "Humans are Bastards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards)" bit, yes, that is true, but Humanity is Superior (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumanityIsSuperior) as well. Might be my LE alignment speaking there...

And yes, the TV Tropes links ARE there to ruin your life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife). LE, remember?

Eldariel
2010-01-22, 10:13 PM
By Races of the Dragon, it seems like kobolds are even more suited to this. They are more industrious than dwarves, live longer than humans (With no adventurers, anyway), breed as fast as rodents, and are adults at 6 years old. Only reason they don't is because they seem to be slowly building up their control and don't seem to mind serving/using as expensive guards/worshiping dragons, which seem to be one of the more "Why should I care about tech or wizardy in the lesser races when I'm a DRAGON?"

Let's not forget that given how D&D is, Elves are the dominant race simply because their culture tends towards Wizardy and Druidism and Wizards and Druids win D&D. Frankly, any world where Gray Elves don't rule is illogically derived, or a consequence of Dragons ruling or Illithids ****ing up history (both have sufficient innate abilities to actually perform such stunts).

Weiser_Cain
2010-01-22, 10:18 PM
Honestly, death has no factor in my level of productivity.

chiasaur11
2010-01-22, 10:24 PM
Let's not forget that given how D&D is, Elves are the dominant race simply because their culture tends towards Wizardy and Druidism and Wizards and Druids win D&D. Frankly, any world where Gray Elves don't rule is illogically derived, or a consequence of Dragons ruling or Illithids ****ing up history (both have sufficient innate abilities to actually perform such stunts).

More'n 100 years to get going, though. Kobolds given that amount of time get epic feats for the leaders, even if they're sitting on their duffs.

And they get a lot of cannon fodder.

Now, something I mildly wonder about. Other races being better than humanity, I can tolerate. Dwarves are fine. Mind Flayers? Don't want to have to deal with them, but they're still nifty keen. Kobolds? Like the scaly little guys. And Warforged are awesome.

But Elves?

I want every single one in standard DnD to be dead or on fire. And I really don't know exactly why. Heck, I can even tolerate (or be moderate amused by) elves in LotR, 8bit theater, and Order of the Stick. But...

Yukitsu
2010-01-22, 10:28 PM
That depends on the source. In the basic PHB, they are adults (and able to take class levels) at 110 years old, while humans are adults at 15 (by their definition of adult). So yeah, Screw You Elves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYouElves).

*Edited because I fail at linking*

Which was amended to "don't start adventuring until.", which isn't in any way countered by the PHB reading because adult is a cultural value, not a physiological one.

Fendalus
2010-01-22, 10:32 PM
Which was amended to "don't start adventuring until.", which isn't in any way countered by the PHB reading because adult is a cultural value, not a physiological one.

In which book is that amended?

Jergmo
2010-01-22, 10:40 PM
I want every single one in standard DnD to be dead or on fire. And I really don't know exactly why. Heck, I can even tolerate (or be moderate amused by) elves in LotR, 8bit theater, and Order of the Stick. But...

Agreed. My elves are actual elves.

+2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha
Medium size.
Elf base speed is 30 feet.
Low-light vision.
Racial Hit Dice: An elf begins with two levels of fey, which provides 2d6 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +3.
Racial Skills: An elf's fey levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Hide, Move Silently, Perform, Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive and Spellcraft.
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment (charm) spells cast by elves. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks.
+2 racial bonus on Perform(Dance) and Perform(Sing) checks.
+2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks.
Spell-like Abilities: 1/day—ethereal jaunt; 1/week—remove disease. Caster level 1st.
Charm (Su): This power works like the charm person spell (caster level 4th), except that it is not limited to the humanoid type. Those affected must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be charmed for 4 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based. Usable 3 times per day.
Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid's wild empathy class feature, except that the elf has a +2 racial bonus on the check
Automatic Languages: Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Common, Giant, Draconic, Terran.
Favored Class: Bard.
Level Adjustment: +2

Eldariel
2010-01-22, 10:45 PM
In which book is that amended?

Races of the Wild IIRC.


@Jergmo: Don't you think giving ALL of them Ethereal Jaunt daily is a bit weird? I mean, if going Tolkienish, that was a characteristic of Elven Lords specifically, and it was constant dual-presence.

Jergmo
2010-01-22, 10:48 PM
Races of the Wild IIRC.


@Jergmo: Don't you think giving ALL of them Ethereal Jaunt daily is a bit weird? I mean, if going Tolkienish, that was a characteristic of Elven Lords specifically, and it was constant dual-presence.

I didn't give them Ethereal Jaunt because elves in LoTR could - I didn't know that, actually. I based it off of Germanic/etc. mythology, which said they had power over disease, the ability to become ethereal, bewitch you/etc. stuff.

Fendalus
2010-01-22, 10:53 PM
I didn't give them Ethereal Jaunt because elves in LoTR could - I didn't know that, actually. I based it off of Germanic/etc. mythology, which said they had power over disease, the ability to become ethereal, bewitch you/etc. stuff.

So more like the traditional Fey elves? The Fair Folk, half-crazy style of elves? Those I actually like, despite my normal hatred of elves. I might have to steal that to replace normal elves in a campaign I run...

Jergmo
2010-01-22, 10:58 PM
So more like the traditional Fey elves? The Fair Folk, half-crazy style of elves? Those I actually like, despite my normal hatred of elves. I might have to steal that to replace normal elves in a campaign I run...

Aye! The ones who will either rock your world for the night or ruin your life.

Eldariel
2010-01-22, 11:02 PM
So more like the traditional Fey elves? The Fair Folk, half-crazy style of elves? Those I actually like, despite my normal hatred of elves. I might have to steal that to replace normal elves in a campaign I run...

Yeah, fact is that D&D Elves have been nerfed hardcore to make them playable race no stronger than the rest of the PHB. Of course, they lost most of their mystique over way; no matter how big an elf-lover I am, I wouldn't mind a do-over there.

Hell, 3.5 Elves aren't even fey in spite of the type existing; that's blasphemy if I've ever seen some. 4e sorta rectified that though.


@Jergmo: Yeah, seeing you're deriving them from the exact same source as Tolkien, it's no miracle they share abilities. That one mislead me on the source tho.

I actually quite like the "dual-dimensional" existence of elven lords; makes for something very unique D&D-wise. I'm actually thinking of giving it to high-level Elves as a racial feat or something of the sort.

Though it's worth noting that the role you're placing them at is already sort-of occupied by Fae of other names in D&D. Sprites kinda fall in the niché.

taltamir
2010-01-22, 11:12 PM
It depends on what society values. If the society values poetry then the best and brightest will become poets. If the society values science then the best and brightest will become scientists. If the society values investment banking then the best and brightest will want to work at Goldman Sachs :smalltongue:

and yet, the human poet aquires equal skill in "perform (poetry)" as an elf 5 times its age. Heck, the human is better, the human gets a bonus feat (skill focus poetry) and an extra skill point per level.
Elves fail at everything, even at poetry.

elves also have no innate disease resistance like dwarves, so their obscene age to adulthood means disease should have wiped them out.

Kaun
2010-01-22, 11:55 PM
Yeah i always figered elves just thought they already new everything there was to know about life due to there arrogance and just spent time perfecting what they already new rather then explore new avenues.

Its all about perspective.

If an elf looses a sword fight to a better swordsmen and lives then it is a reason to push yourself in your studies with the blade so you can beat him next time.

If a human looses a sword fight to a better swordsmen and lives its a reason to invent a gun.

Elevs are about perfecting them selfs human are about building a better tool.

Dienekes
2010-01-23, 12:05 AM
http://www.cracked.com/article_17185_7-awesome-super-powers-ruined-by-science_p2.html

Number #1 I think is why elves never get far.

Jergmo
2010-01-23, 02:32 AM
If an elf looses a sword fight to a better swordsmen and lives then it is a reason to push yourself in your studies with the blade so you can beat him next time.

If a human looses a sword fight to a better swordsmen and lives its a reason to invent a gun.

Hence why the elves lose. :smalltongue:

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-23, 02:54 AM
In a world where one can dance the Dark Chaos Shuffle, why would one ever be a race that didn't have 4 bonus racial feats? DM Dark Chaos Shuffle oppression is keepin' the elf down! :smallyuk:

2xMachina
2010-01-23, 02:56 AM
I think they just practice very long.

1+1=2? They did it 1 million times, and can do it in their sleep. Thus, they don't graduate till very old.

Elf items are generally of a higher quality. They don't create new things. They create better versions of the old.

Mastikator
2010-01-23, 03:44 AM
Elves aren't smarter than humans. In fact they're less skilled and less versatile. They learn slower. They are dumber than humans.

Jayngfet
2010-01-23, 03:46 AM
I think they just practice very long.

1+1=2? They did it 1 million times, and can do it in their sleep. Thus, they don't graduate till very old.

Elf items are generally of a higher quality. They don't create new things. They create better versions of the old.

Of course this is all well and good but when you've made your +1 masterwork longsword we'll be quite happy with out rifles. There is a reason we don't use fixed up old guns so much as improve on the model to create something newer and better.

jmbrown
2010-01-23, 03:51 AM
You know, logically speaking, DWARVES should really rule the world. Seriously. They're hard-working AND relatively long-lived.

Plus they have more racial traits than you can shake a 10 ft-pole at. And many of them good.

Dwarves' industriousness often leads them to fighting other mountain and underground dwelling creatures which tend to be a lot more dangerous than surface dwelling ones.

But yeah, elves don't really achieve anything because they're content with what they have. They get their own little magical island to live on when they hit a specific age and pass on their traditions to subsequent generations. If humans had an island of immortal retirees you can bet your bag-of-dice they'd either be killing each other or band together to take over the rest of the world.

Bayar
2010-01-23, 04:11 AM
Everybody is entitled to opinions. My opinion as to why elves stay so much at home while humans just go out and do stuff is this:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/1264052099194.jpg

It even explains why most elf adventurers look like women !

Godskook
2010-01-23, 04:12 AM
http://www.cracked.com/article_17185_7-awesome-super-powers-ruined-by-science_p2.html

Number #1 I think is why elves never get far.

Except that the article isn't written to be intelligent. I'm hoping the guy was trying to be funny(which he succeeded at) cause his arguments weren't generally convincing that these powers would neccessarily work the way he describes. As an example, his arguments toward super-sense argue that supposedly anyone with super-sense would be unable to deal with the information overload that comes with it, yet there's many animals with 'super-human' hearing, and none of them have any trouble coping with their 'super-powers'.

Jayngfet
2010-01-23, 04:16 AM
Of course those animals work differnt from a humanoid mind. A human brain isn't meant to handle that kind of thing. A dogs brain handles dog senses, a crabs brain handles crab things, a human brain handles human things. It's like an earthworm with the senses of a human, it really doesn't work because their brain isn't built for seeing more than light and dark.

Godskook
2010-01-23, 04:42 AM
Of course those animals work differnt from a humanoid mind. A human brain isn't meant to handle that kind of thing. A dogs brain handles dog senses, a crabs brain handles crab things, a human brain handles human things. It's like an earthworm with the senses of a human, it really doesn't work because their brain isn't built for seeing more than light and dark.

And superhumans sense superhuman things, which from your logic means that anyone superhuman enough to have super-senses would have brain-pans big enough to process what they're receiving.

Look at it this way, consider cars. Imagine a festiva with 30' inch rims. The article's logic would say "that's dumb, cause festiva wheel can't accomadate that size tire". In reality, we'd say "wow, I wonder what kinds of adjustments had to be made to the suspension to get that to work." Essentially, the article is using 'genie-logic', that the power's name is completely descriptive rather than a simple summation of a larger overhaul of what we'd consider 'normal'.

ondonaflash
2010-01-23, 05:13 AM
Silly people! Elves don't rule the world because after defeating dragonkind in a war almost 60 thousand years ago, the dragons have infiltrated the highest levels of society, and manipulated trends with such deviousness that the elves have actually been weakening as a race.

Elves are expected to be elegant and slender, because elegant slender creatures burn quicker and go down easier, elves live in forests because forests are made of highly flammable wood, don't you see? Its all been one great conspiracy from the start!

Gnorman
2010-01-23, 05:39 AM
Kill 'em all and let Corellon sort 'em out.

Demented
2010-01-23, 06:21 AM
Essentially, the article is using 'genie-logic', that the power's name is completely descriptive rather than a simple summation of a larger overhaul of what we'd consider 'normal'.
Doesn't seem they got anything wrong with immortality... Though, being indestructible doesn't seem to be an issue for elves, seeing as how they aren't.

Eldariel
2010-01-23, 06:37 AM
Dwarves' industriousness often leads them to fighting other mountain and underground dwelling creatures which tend to be a lot more dangerous than surface dwelling ones.

But yeah, elves don't really achieve anything because they're content with what they have. They get their own little magical island to live on when they hit a specific age and pass on their traditions to subsequent generations. If humans had an island of immortal retirees you can bet your bag-of-dice they'd either be killing each other or band together to take over the rest of the world.

Last I checked, Elves made great advances in the field of magic which is where they spend most of their resources. Hell, FR has the whole "Elven High Magic" as a completely separate entity from standard magic. I'm not buying the premise of this thread.

Doppelganger
2010-01-23, 06:39 AM
What is being missed, I think, is that elves long lives mean that, useless fluff feats or no, they're going to be several million levels higher than any human. You're all describing starting bonuses and a useless society, but given a, say, dwaven society (work hard for a long long time) they would rule the world. Even without this, in most fantasy elves do get alot done, even if they do spend rather alot of time looking at candle flames or composing bad poetry. All of the stuff so far relise on one interpritation of evlen society, which is a DM call, and the idea that all life reflects an adventuring party. If training levels NPCs up, then elven armies are all going to be epic level.

-Pixie

Optimystik
2010-01-23, 07:44 AM
I really do prefer the eladrin-type elves.

Yeah, very much this. They're a lot more... Sidhe... than retarded tree-hugging hippie.

I mean, just look:

http://departmentofyeah.com/raceeladrin1.jpg


Everybody is entitled to opinions. My opinion as to why elves stay so much at home while humans just go out and do stuff is this:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/1264052099194.jpg

It even explains why most elf adventurers look like women !

Okay, this is over 9000 points of awesome right here.

taltamir
2010-01-23, 09:04 AM
Everybody is entitled to opinions. My opinion as to why elves stay so much at home while humans just go out and do stuff is this:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/1264052099194.jpg

It even explains why most elf adventurers look like women !

you win an internet!

Optimystik
2010-01-23, 09:49 AM
Also this:

http://www.globalagendagame.com/Media_Videos_No_Elves.html

dsmiles
2010-01-23, 11:32 AM
I don't know about you guys, but I don't use a human-dominant campaign world.

The human society was nearly wiped out by a fiery cataclysm about 250 years ago, but don't you dare feel sorry for them, they brought it upon themselves by challenging the god of magic (as yet unnamed in my mythology). (:thog: Thog says: Stoopid humies!)

The world is now dominated by a pseudo-Roman/Egyptian society of "beastmen." They are actually several species (Dragonborn, Minotaur, and two homebrew races: the Ferrire [a feline race], and the Wolfen [duh!]) that had originally banded together for protection from the humans, but in the power vacuum generated by the fiery cataclysm, they have formed a great empire that is primarily LN (with good tendancies).

Note: This is all in a 4e campaign.

DarklingPerhaps
2010-01-23, 11:56 AM
I always thought of elves as just really really lazy. See Overlord for more examples.

In fact in my game the elves even use their own money and economy and absolutely refuse from taking place in other creatures' affairs. Much to the dismay of my players who are always either trying to buy something or recruit something into their army, sometimes both at the same time.

But the humans mainly dominate because the dwarves keep wiping themselves out with wars and the orks aren't nearly as sea-faring. Other monstrous races are all being hunted and extraplanar creatures are mainly busy doing their own thing.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-01-23, 11:56 AM
i typically replace standard elves with jungle elves in my games and make them brutal savages who revere nature an survival of the fitest. . . .thus explaining not being the dominant race. . . (they keep killing eachother)

Drakevarg
2010-01-23, 12:03 PM
If I had to take WotC's fluff verbatum (which I don't. Elves in my campaigns don't live NEARLY as long) I'd say that elves used to be the dominant race, but have slowly been going the way of the Chozo.

dsmiles
2010-01-23, 12:06 PM
If I had to take WotC's fluff verbatum (which I don't. Elves in my campaigns don't live NEARLY as long) I'd say that elves used to be the dominant race, but have slowly been going the way of the Chozo.

I don't either. I use Tolkien-esque Elves that sail off into the sunset when they get tired of living amongst men. But humans still aren't dominant (see my earlier post for details).

Gametime
2010-01-23, 12:16 PM
Elves aren't smarter than humans. In fact they're less skilled and less versatile. They learn slower. They are dumber than humans.

That is one way of defining intellect.

Mind, it completely ignores the fact that intellect is usually measured (when it is measured at all) as a function of age, and so the rate at which a species develops cannot be used to "prove" that it is dumber than another species because that very rate is the basis of how smart they are supposed to be at any given time.

Gametime
2010-01-23, 12:20 PM
What is being missed, I think, is that elves long lives mean that, useless fluff feats or no, they're going to be several million levels higher than any human. You're all describing starting bonuses and a useless society, but given a, say, dwaven society (work hard for a long long time) they would rule the world. Even without this, in most fantasy elves do get alot done, even if they do spend rather alot of time looking at candle flames or composing bad poetry. All of the stuff so far relise on one interpritation of evlen society, which is a DM call, and the idea that all life reflects an adventuring party. If training levels NPCs up, then elven armies are all going to be epic level.

-Pixie

Except NPCs explicitly don't gain levels for doing their job. The DMG says commoners might gain one or two levels in their entire life, and maybe not even that. Even an elven commoner couldn't expect to get more than a few.

Also, levels in NPC classes suck. Even if they DID level up by training, it wouldn't exactly make elves fit to take over the world by virtue of their massive commoner army.*

Regardless of natural life span, the only way to become truly powerful is to put yourself in life threatening situations on a regular basis. That's a fairly convincing equalizer.

*Assuming that they didn't form a railgun or send their zombie-chickens out to conquer the world.

Zen Master
2010-01-23, 12:24 PM
War is coming. To prepare

The elf considers the artwork and design of the weapon he intends to forge. He studies materials and properties, considers what will best suit the enemy in question. If he actually manages to create the sword before the enemy has already stabbed him with a pitchfork, he will then focus on mastering this particular blade.

The human looks at a sword already made. Thinks to himself 'hey - I just bet I could come up with a setup that could churn out four score of those a day!'

When elves think, art gets in the way of results. Elves could defeat humans by outbreeding them - but they cannot be bothered to fight for their own survival, for which reason they will be swept aside. They are inefficient by design.

Fendalus
2010-01-23, 12:25 PM
That is one way of defining intellect.

Mind, it completely ignores the fact that intellect is usually measured (when it is measured at all) as a function of age, and so the rate at which a species develops cannot be used to "prove" that it is dumber than another species because that very rate is the basis of how smart they are supposed to be at any given time.

I believe he was referring to the fact that humans get an extra skill per level, an extra feat at 1st level, and get the middle/old/venerable mental stat boosts first. And MOST elves have no racial bonus to Int, and humans are actually smarter than elves for a good bit of their shorter lives. In addition to this, elves are MORE vulnerable to disease than humans (-2 to con), so unless they keep their forests spotless, they might very well die from disease before they even get to middle or old age.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-23, 12:47 PM
Hmm, this is a good alternative to my theory that Humans as a race to exist in fantasy solely to act as breeding machines for every race in existence.

Frankly, it seems like Humans' shtick isn't so much to dominate than to be spawning grounds for Mindflayers and casual sex partners for fiends and dragons and celestials and everything else that needs an easy distraction.

I'm pretty convinced the only reason the race exists in Generic FR Settings is due to Illithids messing up with history to maximize the amount of hosts they've got available.
That's why there's so many "half-somethings" out there.
Other than half-dragons. Those have long lifespans and know how to live life.

taltamir
2010-01-23, 12:48 PM
That is one way of defining intellect.

Mind, it completely ignores the fact that intellect is usually measured (when it is measured at all) as a function of age, and so the rate at which a species develops cannot be used to "prove" that it is dumber than another species because that very rate is the basis of how smart they are supposed to be at any given time.

including age makes elves even dumber.

Grifthin
2010-01-23, 01:47 PM
If humans are the paragons of development, then DnD has even more of a crapsack world than I thought.

I am a devoted follower of the Humans are Bastards school of thought.

QFT

Beer and cookies for you.

Optimystik
2010-01-23, 01:53 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I don't use a human-dominant campaign world.

The human society was nearly wiped out by a fiery cataclysm about 250 years ago, but don't you dare feel sorry for them, they brought it upon themselves by challenging the god of magic (as yet unnamed in my mythology). (:thog: Thog says: Stoopid humies!)

The world is now dominated by a pseudo-Roman/Egyptian society of "beastmen." They are actually several species (Dragonborn, Minotaur, and two homebrew races: the Ferrire [a feline race], and the Wolfen [duh!]) that had originally banded together for protection from the humans, but in the power vacuum generated by the fiery cataclysm, they have formed a great empire that is primarily LN (with good tendancies).

Note: This is all in a 4e campaign.

No humans, AND the world is overrun by legions of furries? Apocalypse indeed!
Just kidding... ;)

kieza
2010-01-23, 03:25 PM
An argument I heard a while back as to why elves don't rule the world is that, being immortal or close enough to not matter, they have more to lose when they take the risk of going to war, becoming an adventurer, etc. As a result, they're only going to do such things when it's sufficiently important, whereas humans have a tendency to risk their lives on the possibility of gaining pseudo-immortality by becoming a legend.

chiasaur11
2010-01-23, 03:33 PM
No humans, AND the world is overrun by legions of furries? Apocalypse indeed!
Just kidding... ;)

You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!

saevitia
2010-01-23, 08:40 PM
Everybody is entitled to opinions. My opinion as to why elves stay so much at home while humans just go out and do stuff is this:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/1264052099194.jpg

It even explains why most elf adventurers look like women !

Man, those are some of the hottest looking elf boys I've seen! </completely missing the point>

Zaydos
2010-01-24, 01:14 AM
An argument I heard a while back as to why elves don't rule the world is that, being immortal or close enough to not matter, they have more to lose when they take the risk of going to war, becoming an adventurer, etc. As a result, they're only going to do such things when it's sufficiently important, whereas humans have a tendency to risk their lives on the possibility of gaining pseudo-immortality by becoming a legend.

QFT. I've used this one before. Elves care about their own skin, they live long and recognize that they have a lot of time to lose by dying. Humans do best to ensure the best for their descendants and look for ways to gain genetic immortality. This is also why elves tend to use necromancy less, they have immortality no need to seek it out.

This reasoning is also found in Tolkien and used for part of why the elves are reluctant to fight Sauron directly, they have too much to lose.