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Vemynal
2010-01-22, 07:12 PM
Hey, I was wondering if there was anything in the game that allowed for a character to use his dexterity bonus instead of his Strength bonus for melee damage rolls.

I know that the Weapons finesse feat allows it for attack rolls but from how I'm reading it the feat leaves damage rolls still up to strength.

The reason I'm asking is because of a Pixie Samurai character I've been drafting for a friend, except Samurai are very melee and strength dependent >.>

And if there isn't, would home-brewing that effect as a separate feat be overpowered?

thanks!

Mikka
2010-01-22, 07:16 PM
And if there isn't, would home-brewing that effect as a separate feat be overpowered?

Yes, but fear not! Tome of Battle to the rescue. Theres a feat there that allows you to deal dex 'in addition' to strength to damage, only with certain weapons but that part can be fairly houseruled around.

arguskos
2010-01-22, 07:24 PM
Yes, but fear not! Tome of Battle to the rescue. Theres a feat there that allows you to deal dex 'in addition' to strength to damage, only with certain weapons but that part can be fairly houseruled around.
However, to take Shadow Blade you need Shadow Hand maneuvers. I rewrote Shadow Blade to be the following:

Shadow Blade
Prereqs: Dex 17, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: You add your Dexterity modifier to damage in place of your Strength modifier for any weapon that can be used for Weapon Finesse.

Yes, it's better than the original, but that's the point. Dex to Damage shouldn't be that hard to acquire, IMO.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-22, 07:25 PM
Check here for a more detailed list of making that substitution possible. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Mikka
2010-01-22, 07:26 PM
However, to take Shadow Blade you need Shadow Hand maneuvers. I rewrote Shadow Blade to be the following:

Shadow Blade
Prereqs: Dex 17, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: You add your Dexterity modifier to damage in place of your Strength modifier for any weapon that can be used for Weapon Finesse.

Yes, it's better than the original, but that's the point. Dex to Damage shouldn't be that hard to acquire, IMO.

Yes it should it basically lets you ignore an entire stat while focusing on a single one you boost to the roof : )

One that already gives you +ref +ini +to hit +ac

arguskos
2010-01-22, 07:47 PM
Yes it should it basically lets you ignore an entire stat while focusing on a single one you boost to the roof : )

One that already gives you +ref +ini +to hit +ac
What's your point? That Dex replacing Str is a bad thing? Ok, sure, I'll just tag you with a Ray of Enfeeblement and giggle. Really, SAD is not a bad thing for melee characters, who already get bent over the barrel by casting of any kind.

In my mind, a simple damage boost isn't anything to get up in arms about. It's not flight, teleporting, auto-killing enemies, doing anything impressive, it's just bigger numbers.

Temotei
2010-01-22, 07:50 PM
What's your point? That Dex replacing Str is a bad thing? Ok, sure, I'll just tag you with a Ray of Enfeeblement and giggle. Really, SAD is not a bad thing for melee characters, who already get bent over the barrel by casting of any kind.

In my mind, a simple damage boost isn't anything to get up in arms about. It's not flight, teleporting, auto-killing enemies, doing anything impressive, it's just bigger numbers.

And it costs a feat.

Vemynal
2010-01-22, 10:23 PM
so...not overpower then?

I've also been lookin into the shadow blade feat from tome of battle (thrice dead cat linked it) but according to the wizard website I have to use "Shadow sun weapons" while in the shadow hand stance

Also I've been picking up through the grape vine that samurai has a lot of issues but haven't pegged anything for specific details

Tavar
2010-01-22, 10:27 PM
Really, even for a feat it's not that great. Str is still the way to go for good damage, this just makes dex based melee build viable. Oh the Horror....:smallsigh:

DragoonWraith
2010-01-22, 11:18 PM
Shadow Sun weapons is a typo (that isn't in the actual book, IIRC), it's Shadow Hand weapons. The list is dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, and spiked chain.

Jota
2010-01-23, 11:10 AM
If you are going to use a homebrew variation of Shadow Blade anyway, there's little reason not to go all the way, especially since, as others have noted, reducing the melee-oriented character's MAD is hardly unbalanced, especially at the cost of a feat. This is a feat designed by someone who generally balances the game to the third/fourth tier, though you (or your DM) may find it unbalanced given it does combine Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, if only for a single weapon. With that said, you could still stack Shadow Blade, were you to qualify for it, so it (and Weapon Finesse) both still have a place in the game. I'm rambling, so without further ado, I present Spiritual Weapon:

Spiritual Weapon [General]
Unlike others, you have a special bond with a specific type of weapon which you can use to great extent even without the physical strength to back it up.
Benefit: Choose one ability score and weapon. Whenever wielding this weapon, you use that ability score instead of your Strength modifier for the attack and damage when making attacks with that weapon. For example, if you chose Charisma and the shortsword and used two-weapon fighting with double shortswords, you would deal your Charisma modifier with your primary hand and one-half your Charisma modifier with your off-hand, rather than Strength.
Normal: Strength normally governs the attack and damage modifiers for weapons wielded.
Special: This feat may only be taken at first level. The bonus to attack does not stack with any ability or effect which allows one to add the same ability score as the one selected for this feat to attack rolls.

You can find the original here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Spiritual_Weapon_(3.5e_Feat)), along with other feats by the same author (Ghostwheel (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/User:Ghostwheel)), should that intrigue you.

Otherwise, dipping swordsage to access the Shadow Hand is a very sound option, assuming you're not drafting a first level character.

Last note, when you say samurai, which class are you referring to? I don't mean to disparage your choice of class, as the Complete Warrior samurai (if that is indeed your class) may be appropriate for the level you intend to play at, but I would offer this bit of advice: flavor is mutable. All that means, if you are unfamiliar with the phrase, is that you don't actually have to be the samurai class (which is considered Tier 6 -- more on tiers here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) if you are unfamiliar with them) if you want your character to be a samurai. You can just as easily be a warblade (Tier 3, which may be better, may not be, again it depends on the make-up of the party) and focus on the Diamond Mind and Iron Heart disciplines (with a little Stone Dragon as well, perhaps). If you really want Iaijutsu Focus, you can DM fiat it onto your skill list, burn a feat to have it always be considered a class skill, or find whatever suitable remedy you and your DM work out.

Hope that helps.

Jane_Smith
2010-01-23, 02:00 PM
Or my homebrew feat - Incredible Finesse.

Incredible Finesse [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, Dex 15.
Benefit: When using any weapon compatible with the Weapon Finesse feat, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for melee damage rolls.

For ranged attacks;

Focused Shot [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot, Dex 15.
Benefit: When using a ranged weapon, you may add your Dexterity modifier to your damage roll. However, this bonus damage only applies to attacks made within your weapons base range increment.

Temotei
2010-01-23, 02:06 PM
If you are going to use a homebrew variation of Shadow Blade anyway, there's little reason not to go all the way, especially since, as others have noted, reducing the melee-oriented character's MAD is hardly unbalanced, especially at the cost of a feat. This is a feat designed by someone who generally balances the game to the third/fourth tier, though you (or your DM) may find it unbalanced given it does combine Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, if only for a single weapon. With that said, you could still stack Shadow Blade, were you to qualify for it, so it (and Weapon Finesse) both still have a place in the game. I'm rambling, so without further ado, I present Spiritual Weapon:

Spiritual Weapon [General]
Unlike others, you have a special bond with a specific type of weapon which you can use to great extent even without the physical strength to back it up.
Benefit: Choose one ability score and weapon. Whenever wielding this weapon, you use that ability score instead of your Strength modifier for the attack and damage when making attacks with that weapon. For example, if you chose Charisma and the shortsword and used two-weapon fighting with double shortswords, you would deal your Charisma modifier with your primary hand and one-half your Charisma modifier with your off-hand, rather than Strength.
Normal: Strength normally governs the attack and damage modifiers for weapons wielded.
Special: This feat may only be taken at first level. The bonus to attack does not stack with any ability or effect which allows one to add the same ability score as the one selected for this feat to attack rolls.

You can find the original here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Spiritual_Weapon_(3.5e_Feat)), along with other feats by the same author (Ghostwheel (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/User:Ghostwheel)), should that intrigue you.

Otherwise, dipping swordsage to access the Shadow Hand is a very sound option, assuming you're not drafting a first level character.

Last note, when you say samurai, which class are you referring to? I don't mean to disparage your choice of class, as the Complete Warrior samurai (if that is indeed your class) may be appropriate for the level you intend to play at, but I would offer this bit of advice: flavor is mutable. All that means, if you are unfamiliar with the phrase, is that you don't actually have to be the samurai class (which is considered Tier 6 -- more on tiers here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) if you are unfamiliar with them) if you want your character to be a samurai. You can just as easily be a warblade (Tier 3, which may be better, may not be, again it depends on the make-up of the party) and focus on the Diamond Mind and Iron Heart disciplines (with a little Stone Dragon as well, perhaps). If you really want Iaijutsu Focus, you can DM fiat it onto your skill list, burn a feat to have it always be considered a class skill, or find whatever suitable remedy you and your DM work out.

Hope that helps.

I didn't read what you said after the feat, but I don't like the 1st-level only deal. Role-playing-wise, I could think of a few reasons I'd want it to be any level, or even a DM-granted free feat.


Or my homebrew feat - Incredible Finesse.

Incredible Finesse [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, Dex 15.
Benefit: When using any weapon compatible with the Weapon Finesse feat, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for melee damage rolls.

For ranged attacks;

Focused Shot [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot, Dex 15.
Benefit: When using a ranged weapon, you may add your Dexterity modifier to your damage roll. However, this bonus damage only applies to attacks made within your weapons base range increment.

I like the ranged feat. :smallsmile:

The Incredible Finesse feat is good too. :smallbiggrin:

Jota
2010-01-23, 02:21 PM
I didn't read what you said after the feat, but I don't like the 1st-level only deal. Role-playing-wise, I could think of a few reasons I'd want it to be any level, or even a DM-granted free feat.


I just transcribed the feat, nothing more, nothing less. It's not like you can't homebrew a homebrew or just waive that clause if you disagree with it.

Temotei
2010-01-23, 02:26 PM
I just transcribed the feat, nothing more, nothing less. It's not like you can't homebrew a homebrew or just waive that clause if you disagree with it.

I know. I'm just saying--I don't like restrictions on when you can take your feat, in terms of an actual level-period (if that makes sense).

+8 BAB requirement? Sure. I can get that whenever I get +8 or higher.

1st level only? Dang. After 1st level, I'm done with that feat. :smallannoyed:

If I did use it, I would get rid of that part of the feat. I'm not insulting you or anything. Just pointing out that I don't like that last part.

Latronis
2010-01-23, 03:15 PM
I know. I'm just saying--I don't like restrictions on when you can take your feat, in terms of an actual level-period (if that makes sense).

+8 BAB requirement? Sure. I can get that whenever I get +8 or higher.

1st level only? Dang. After 1st level, I'm done with that feat. :smallannoyed:

If I did use it, I would get rid of that part of the feat. I'm not insulting you or anything. Just pointing out that I don't like that last part.

Sometimes first level makes sense though!

You suddenly physiologically change because you found out your great granddaddy was a dragon?

Temotei
2010-01-23, 03:17 PM
Sometimes first level makes sense though!

You suddenly physiologically change because you found out your great granddaddy was a dragon?

Should be a template.

arguskos
2010-01-23, 03:28 PM
I personally like 1st level only, as background feats, such as Collegiate Wizard, or the Regional Feats from the Realms. That's just me though.

I mean, Thunder Twins doesn't make much sense to take at level 6, for instance.

Tavar
2010-01-23, 03:28 PM
Or, why can't the change happen later in life? Possibly after being exposed to magic, like most adventurers.

arguskos
2010-01-23, 03:34 PM
Or, why can't the change happen later in life? Possibly after being exposed to magic, like most adventurers.
Eh, it's just that I like some feats at level 1 is all. I really have no issue with a player coming to me and saying they want to take a level 1 feat at level 8 or something, if it makes sense thematically and isn't a power-grab of some idiotic kind, but I like that being something a player asks for, since it shows they're paying attention to their character, and trying things that match their mechanics to their flavor, which has long been an issue for my groups (almost always newer players).

Just how I roll. Not like I'm super restrictive or anything. :smallsigh:

Latronis
2010-01-23, 03:37 PM
Should be a template.

Which doesn't require first level, and generally implies a greater change from the base, often has a larger effect mechanically and may not be as versatile as something like heritage feats which can be used to scale effects per player\DM desire in a much tidier fashion.

Tavar
2010-01-23, 03:43 PM
Eh, it's just that I like some feats at level 1 is all.

That was more directed towards Latronis's post. For stuff like the regional feats or collegiate wizards, well, if you have a point in play where it would make sense to get it I'd be okay, but otherwise, yeah, 1st level only.

Latronis
2010-01-23, 04:08 PM
I hand wave prereqs when suitable anyway. If there's a decent reason why the change would occur.

Temotei
2010-01-23, 04:34 PM
Which doesn't require first level, and generally implies a greater change from the base, often has a larger effect mechanically and may not be as versatile as something like heritage feats which can be used to scale effects per player\DM desire in a much tidier fashion.

Draconic template?

Many, if not most, templates are supposed to be applied at 1st level.

Which brings up the stupid classes that give you a template. :smallannoyed:

Vemynal
2010-01-23, 05:31 PM
heh yeah I know, its literally a copy of Miko being a samurai as a station but not in class levels

ive heard mention of tiers before but never under stood it really, thanks for the link

and yeah its the samurai from the complete warrior a tier 6 character, cept my dex was gonna be 26 and my Int was gonna be 22 at level 5 (4LA + 1 Samurai).

With faerie mysteries initiate so that int controls my health and dex for hitting the target as well as damage what tier would u guys think that would be at?