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View Full Version : do clerics actually get to cast arcane spells for free?



taltamir
2010-01-22, 07:24 PM
I noticed some people saying that identify is free if cast by a cleric, since it is "arcane material component" and whenever casting a spell that is wizard/cleric the cleric gets to not use the component...

This just doesn't seem right to me... it can't be true, can it?

josh13905
2010-01-22, 07:30 PM
I'm 95% sure that's true. Clerics don't require arcane spell components.

Yzzyx
2010-01-22, 07:33 PM
I'm 95% sure that's true. Clerics don't require arcane spell components.

I'm 98.473% sure.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-22, 07:33 PM
They wouldn't make it only an arcane component if it was a divine one. There would be no reason for the distinction.

Draz74
2010-01-22, 07:34 PM
Um, Identify isn't a Cleric spell. It is a Magic domain spell, but many Clerics don't have the Magic domain ... and it's Level 2 for them. The lack of a 100-gp cost is probably the main reason it's a higher-level spell for Magic Clerics than for Wizards.

Same way Psionic Identify is a Level 2 power.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-22, 07:52 PM
It says "arcane spell component" for a reason. Free identification won't ruin your game. Free Continual Flame or Stoneskin might, though, which is why clerics don't waive those material components.

taltamir
2010-01-22, 07:52 PM
well, wizards need analyze dweomer, which is a level 6 spell and takes a 1500gp focus.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/AnalyzeDweomer.htm

It would seem reasonable to me that it was an unintended omission...
As expensive arcane components are only found on arcane only spells. Spells shared between clerics and wizards have a material component that isn't arcane.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm

It seemed to be an intended piece of fluffs... wizards use free components, clerics use a divine focus instead. But when the component has value AND it is a spell available to clerics it is always listed a material component, not arcane material component.


It says "arcane spell component" for a reason. Free identification won't ruin your game. Free Continual Flame or Stoneskin might, though, which is why clerics don't waive those material components.

My thought is, that they don't have those because those are cleric spells to begin with... clerics with the spell domain get access to a lot of spells that normally require a material component.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-22, 07:59 PM
It would seem reasonable to me that it was an unintended omission...
As expensive arcane components are only found on arcane only spells.

Forcecage.
Arcane Lock.
Magic Mouth
Phantom Trap.
Sepia Snake Sigil.
Illusory Script.
Simulacrum.
Instant Summons.
Wall of Iron.
Circle of Death.
Tenser's Transformation.

All of these are labeled as just "material component" for these expensive components. All are arcane-only spells. Therefore, adding the word "arcane" to the material component line is no omission.

Clerics can cast Identify for free. Clerics with the Oracle domain can sell wands of Identify for 750 gp each. Anybody with an Artificer's Monocle can reproduce Identify with a simple Detect Magic. Paying 100 gold per identification is dead; let us feast on its cow meat.

taltamir
2010-01-22, 08:02 PM
thanks for the clarification...
this does seem like a raw deal to wizards. and a pretty odd and obscure rule at that.

ericgrau
2010-01-22, 08:07 PM
I agree that it is an odd distinction suggesting that clerics don't need to pay it. And since a 2nd level scroll costs 125 gp more than a 1st level scroll, it's not all that imba nor game breaking. Not to mention it takes a cleric of a certain domain... not all that common and quite a build price just for free identifies.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-22, 08:08 PM
Dude, they're wizards. They just get their chump friend to do it, use the aforementioned Wands of Identify (wands don't distinguish between arcane/divine), or use an Artificer's Monocle.

Another spell like Identify is False Vision. Clerics with the Trickery domain can cast False Vision without the expensive 250-gp spell component. In the Spell Compendium, there is a spell called Wall of Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, which costs 25 gp for an arcanist to cast, but none for a cleric.
.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-22, 08:17 PM
Identify is on the spell list for the Cloistered Cleric.

taltamir
2010-01-22, 08:18 PM
Identify is on the spell list for the Cloistered Cleric.

yes, and as a level 1 spell. I am playing a cloistered cleric actually, this is how this came up.
I will just enjoy my free identifies at level 1 :P

Draz74
2010-01-22, 09:48 PM
Identify is on the spell list for the Cloistered Cleric.

Hmmm. Well, I guess this just goes to strengthen the guideline, "Any round the Wizard casts a spell that is on the Cleric spell list, that Wizard is a chump for that round."

deuxhero
2010-01-22, 09:53 PM
A loremaster also gets free IDs.

Jack_Simth
2010-01-22, 10:24 PM
I noticed some people saying that identify is free if cast by a cleric, since it is "arcane material component" and whenever casting a spell that is wizard/cleric the cleric gets to not use the component...

This just doesn't seem right to me... it can't be true, can it?
As has been pointed out:
Partially accurate. There are a great many spells on both the Cleric and Wizard lists that require expensive components for both; for instance, just grabbing some from the SRD:

Animate Dead
Astral Projection
Continual Flame
Create Undead (and it's Greater sibling)
The Entire Symbol line

There are quite a few spells that differentiate between the two, such as Identify. It's a case-by-case basis.

Godskook
2010-01-22, 10:34 PM
I noticed some people saying that identify is free if cast by a cleric, since it is "arcane material component" and whenever casting a spell that is wizard/cleric the cleric gets to not use the component...

This just doesn't seem right to me... it can't be true, can it?

Yes, and its also true that the smart wizards identify their magic items with 0th level slots after about L5 or so. Artificer's Googles, 1.5k from the MiC.

Jack_Simth
2010-01-22, 10:39 PM
Yes, and its also true that the smart wizards identify their magic items with 0th level slots after about L5 or so. Artificer's Googles, 1.5k from the MiC.
Bear in mind: Not all DM's permit all sources. Not having access to the source book of the item does not make a given Wizard a not-smart wizard.

taltamir
2010-01-22, 11:15 PM
also it costs 1500gp... its better to be in a party with a cleric that has it for free...

or summon an animal that gets it as an SLA.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-22, 11:21 PM
Also keep in mind that Wizards get certain divine spells for free. Primarily through use of the Heart line from CMage.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-23, 12:55 AM
It says "arcane spell component" for a reason. Free identification won't ruin your game.

Which is good, considering it's available for arcanists via a loremaster dip, or dropping 750 gold on a magic monocle from MiC.

Yeah, most of the omitted components are frankly just not a big deal.

FMArthur
2010-01-23, 01:02 AM
I for one will be houseruling to prevent any horrific Identify abuse. :smalltongue:

magic9mushroom
2010-01-23, 01:02 AM
Anything with M/DF in the component list doesn't use the material if you're casting it as a divine spell. Likewise F/DF means that if you're casting it as divine, you don't have to use the (often expensive) arcane focus.

There are divine spells that do have materials or foci, though.

Zaydos
2010-01-23, 01:08 AM
Free Identify won't break the game. I've seen DMs simply allow detect magic to identify items and not seen it break a game.

ericgrau
2010-01-23, 01:31 AM
Ah but you're missing out on so much fun if you don't tempt players into risky experimentation.

Oh, ftw, analyze dweomer also allows free super identify except for the initial cost of a 1,500 gp focus. But it's a 6th level spell.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-23, 02:20 AM
Ah but you're missing out on so much fun if you don't tempt players into risky experimentation.

Oh, ftw, analyze dweomer also allows free super identify except for the initial cost of a 1,500 gp focus. But it's a 6th level spell.

That's easy. If you enjoy cursed items, just go by the guide that 50% of the time, cursed items identify as beneficial items.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-23, 02:25 AM
That's easy. If you enjoy cursed items, just go by the guide that 50% of the time, cursed items identify as beneficial items.Actually, it's 1% chance per caster level for Identify to tell you an item is actually cursed. Which is so low as to be worthless most of the time.

taltamir
2010-01-23, 09:00 AM
how many people actually play out the identify in full... as in, it takes several casts to fully identify an item, the chances of finding out its cursed are extremely low, etc...
Or do people just say "you cast identify, you know what it is"


Also keep in mind that Wizards get certain divine spells for free. Primarily through use of the Heart line from CMage.

what now? how does that work?

deuxhero
2010-01-23, 09:23 AM
Bear in mind: Not all DM's permit all sources. Not having access to the source book of the item does not make a given Wizard a not-smart wizard.

And a smart-core only wizard goes into Loremaster as Wizard 10/Loremaster 10 is a LOT better.

taltamir
2010-01-23, 09:24 AM
And a smart-core only wizard goes into Loremaster as Wizard 10/Loremaster 10 is a LOT better.

swap some of those wizards levels with archmage to be even better.


Even then, druids still win. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm)

that is funny...


Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard Focus
A mirror of finely wrought and highly polished silver costing not less than 1,000 gp. The mirror must be at least 2 feet by 4 feet.

Cleric Focus
A holy water font costing not less than 100 gp.

Druid Focus
A natural pool of water.

deuxhero
2010-01-23, 09:49 AM
Archmage is a bit of a toss up with the qualifers (At least for Loremaster you get all the feats for free except skill focus, and that is replaced by the class), but yes, levels in Archmage ARE better than wizard.

Optimystik
2010-01-23, 09:53 AM
this does seem like a raw deal to wizards.

Oh noes! The poor wizards! Who will play them now?

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-23, 10:01 AM
I want a spell that has a "divine material component".

Just for a change of pace.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-23, 10:05 AM
how many people actually play out the identify in full... as in, it takes several casts to fully identify an item, the chances of finding out its cursed are extremely low, etc...
Or do people just say "you cast identify, you know what it is"


We play pretty close to RAW, and we never bother to do the detailed identify bit. We just assume that in adventure downtime, the two arcane casters have enough identifies between them to figure out what everything is.

Thus, what the loot actually is gets told to you at the end of the session. Makes using something you just looted properly uncertain, but seriously, with enough time in between....why wouldn't spam Identify till every things solved?

Optimystik
2010-01-23, 10:15 AM
I want a spell that has a "divine material component".

Just for a change of pace.

Even then, druids still win. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm)

taltamir
2010-01-23, 10:27 AM
We play pretty close to RAW, and we never bother to do the detailed identify bit. We just assume that in adventure downtime, the two arcane casters have enough identifies between them to figure out what everything is.

Thus, what the loot actually is gets told to you at the end of the session. Makes using something you just looted properly uncertain, but seriously, with enough time in between....why wouldn't spam Identify till every things solved?

that also assumes you ignore the 100gp per cast cost then...

Tyndmyr
2010-01-23, 10:50 AM
that also assumes you ignore the 100gp per cast cost then...

Nah, it just requires you to buy an artificers monocle and hand it back and forth.

taltamir
2010-01-23, 11:01 AM
Nah, it just requires you to buy an artificers monocle and hand it back and forth.

you said the arcane casters... detect magic is available to all casters: clerics, bards, druids... even the warlock.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-23, 11:03 AM
Even then, druids still win. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm)

That's not a material component.

That's a focus.

Aquillion
2010-01-23, 11:07 AM
Also, I wouldn't say that that actually means druids win.

You can't carry a natural pool of water around with you...

taltamir
2010-01-23, 11:08 AM
Also, I wouldn't say that that actually means druids win.

You can't carry a natural pool of water around with you...

barring shrink item, you are going to have difficulty carrying the other foci with you as well.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-23, 11:10 AM
What's so hard about the holy water font? For your 100+ gold, you can get some real fancy mechanical stuff going on.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-23, 11:12 AM
you said the arcane casters... detect magic is available to all casters: clerics, bards, druids... even the warlock.

Well yeah, it's just that the arcane casters in our party happen to have detect magic permanencied.

This gives us basically "identify till you're bored with it".

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-23, 11:12 AM
An at-will item of Detect Magic should cost about 900-1000 gp, if the Hand of the Mage is any indication.

Bayar
2010-01-23, 11:27 AM
Now that I think about it, wouldnt artificiers be able to create identify scrolls without the material component ? Since their scrolls are neither arcane, nor divine ?

After reading the eratta:

1. All magic items created by artificiers are neither arcane nor divine. Lets call them artificier magic items...

2. They dont require divine focuses but specifically require arcane material components and focuses.

taltamir
2010-01-23, 11:47 AM
Now that I think about it, wouldnt artificiers be able to create identify scrolls without the material component ? Since their scrolls are neither arcane, nor divine ?

then... what are they if they are neither arcane nor divine?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-23, 11:48 AM
What is a number if it is neither odd nor even?

taltamir
2010-01-23, 11:50 AM
What is a number if it is neither odd nor even?

non integer? (example 0.5)
fake? (ex: i... aka, "imaginary numbers"... used for imaginary math... blech)

2xMachina
2010-01-23, 12:04 PM
Or 0 even (no pun intended). Or 8 (sideways) infinity in other words

taltamir
2010-01-23, 12:43 PM
Or 0 even (no pun intended). Or 8 (sideways) infinity in other words

those fall into non integers. infinity is not an integer... I gave an example of 0.5, but there are many other examples of non integer numbers :)

Optimystik
2010-01-23, 01:55 PM
That's not a material component.

That's a focus.

Meh, gp is gp.


Also, I wouldn't say that that actually means druids win.

You can't carry a natural pool of water around with you...

Sure you can. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createwater.htm)

It's a druid spell, therefore it's "natural" by default.

Curmudgeon
2010-01-23, 02:33 PM
Short answer: no. Clerics never cast arcane spells* at all. The fact that some spells appear on both arcane and Cleric spell lists doesn't change that.

Other than that, though, just follow the rules. Clerics have restrictions because of their alignment, their deity's preferred weapon, and their chosen domains. Wizards always win, eventually. Don't get worked up over small details like this.

* - excepting, I suppose, using scrolls via the Magic domain, where they're actually completing the casting as if they were Wizards.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-23, 04:44 PM
...How does their deity's favoured weapon restrict them at all?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-23, 05:02 PM
What is a number if it is neither odd nor even?

These numbers don't exist. If anyone tells you they do, they're a heretic, and must be burned at the stake post haste.

Curmudgeon
2010-01-23, 05:34 PM
...How does their deity's favoured weapon restrict them at all?
It's the weapon used for the War domain, regardless of the preference of the character/player. For instance, a Cleric in Eberron who worships The Mockery can take the War domain, but doesn't get Exotic Weapon Proficiency in the kama, which is The Mockery's favored weapon; the War domain can only supply Martial Weapon Proficiency, if needed. And of course it's the only weapon that can be used with the Weapon of the Deity spell.

Kumo
2010-01-23, 05:53 PM
These numbers don't exist. If anyone tells you they do, they're a heretic, and must be burned at the stake post haste.

technically zero is neither odd nor even

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-23, 06:18 PM
Hmmm. Well, I guess this just goes to strengthen the guideline, "Any round the Wizard casts a spell that is on the Cleric spell list, that Wizard is a chump for that round."

It depends heavily on the circumstances, but if you can avoid crossing spell lists then you are usually better off. The exceptions are must-haves or specific builds, like Shadowcraft Mages (who want Miracle on their spell list and will cast it as much as they can) or Celerity (which is also a Bard spell, but is good enough to warrant use) or Arcane Fusion/Spellsurge (which are Sor only, but worth learning through Recaster or Wyrm Wizard).

Bayar
2010-01-23, 06:57 PM
These numbers don't exist. If anyone tells you they do, they're a heretic, and must be burned at the stake post haste.

Heard about i ? Yes, it is a number.

In base C.

Forgot exactly how to calculate it, but IIRC it was 1 X i = i ; i X i = -1 ; -1 X i = -i ; -i X i = 1

Flickerdart
2010-01-23, 07:03 PM
Heard about i ? Yes, it is a number.

In base C.

Forgot exactly how to calculate it, but IIRC it was 1 X i = i ; i X i = -1 ; -1 X i = -i ; -i X i = 1
Imaginary numbers aren't real.

Bayar
2010-01-23, 07:04 PM
Imaginary numbers aren't real.

Arent they "C"ompound numbers ? (they are known as compound in my language at least)

Edit: they are Complex numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number

Edit 2: and indeed, imaginary...way to fail on my part.


technically zero is neither odd nor even

Zero is even.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-23, 09:15 PM
How is zero even?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-23, 09:18 PM
It's congruent to 0 (mod 2)?

Jack_Simth
2010-01-23, 09:19 PM
How is zero even?

In that if you divide it by 2, you do not have a remainder or decimal.

Draz74
2010-01-23, 10:22 PM
I participated in the on-topic discussion earlier in this thread, so I'm now justified in participating in the math derailing.

Zero is even.

Imaginary and complex numbers are great. They're incredibly useful in quantum mechanics and electrical engineering. There are equations with both real and imaginary components to them where the real part tells you what is going on in one part of an electric circuit, while the imaginary part tells you what is going on in another part of the same circuit. This makes the math of such circuits 1000% easier than it would otherwise be.

In my book, that makes imaginary numbers perfectly real. (Just not Real. A forum that knows the difference between evil and Evil and [Evil] should understand that.)

taltamir
2010-01-23, 11:31 PM
Imaginary and complex numbers are great. They're incredibly useful in quantum mechanics and electrical engineering. There are equations with both real and imaginary components to them where the real part tells you what is going on in one part of an electric circuit, while the imaginary part tells you what is going on in another part of the same circuit. This makes the math of such circuits 1000% easier than it would otherwise be.

I'd like to see some of that... I am very skeptical of imaginary math have real world use... I'd like to be proven wrong. (oh I am sure there are equations, I want to see ones that work)

As for 0... 0/2 = 0... no remainder, hence it is even.

olof
2010-01-26, 07:58 AM
Imaginary numbers have much real world use. Here comes an example from electrical engineering.

The relationship between current and the voltage for a capacitors in an electrical circuit can be described by a differential equation. Solving a large system of these equations can be very time consuming.

However if you are only interested in the behavior of the circuit after "the current has been on" for a long time, the circuits behavior can be calculated using the capacitors impedance which is equal to:

1/(jwC) where j is the imaginary unit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

Volkov
2010-01-26, 08:16 AM
These numbers don't exist. If anyone tells you they do, they're a heretic, and must be burned at the stake post haste.

Yes, in the name of the God Emperor of Mankind, you will be burned for math heresy.