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taltamir
2010-01-22, 09:05 PM
I hear about "trading" knowledge for knowledge devotion, what does that mean?
Also mentioned is doing something with cloistered cleric here, what is that?

Temotei
2010-01-22, 09:07 PM
I hear about "trading" knowledge for knowledge devotion, what does that mean?
Also mentioned is doing something with cloistered cleric here, what is that?

Knowledge Devotion is a feat in Complete Champion. It uses Knowledge skills, and the more you have, the better.

The cloistered cleric gets all Knowledge skills as class skills.

1. Knowledge skill ranks max
2. Knowledge Devotion
3. ??????
4. Profit.

JaronK
2010-01-22, 09:07 PM
The Cloistered Cleric is in Unearthed Arcana. It's a variant Cleric that loses heavy armor, BAB, and hitpoints but gets Knowledge Domain for free in addition to 6 skill points per level and a few extra spells on their list.

JaronK

Claudius Maximus
2010-01-22, 09:10 PM
You can trade a domain for a corresponding devotion feat.

Cloistered Clerics get the Knowledge domain for free.

Kantolin
2010-01-22, 09:11 PM
The trading aspect is that, according to the Complete Champion, you can trade out a domain for the appropriate domain feat.

Summarily, a cloistered cleric (Who gets the knowledge domain for free) can trade the knowledge domain out for the surprisingly potent knowledge devotion, which helps them a good deal if they're going combattive.

ex cathedra
2010-01-22, 09:13 PM
You can also trade the Inquisition domain for Knowledge Devotion, which is nice for Church Inquisitors. The rule for trading domains for domain feats is on page 53 of Complete Champion.

taltamir
2010-01-22, 09:25 PM
You can trade a domain for a corresponding devotion feat.

Cloistered Clerics get the Knowledge domain for free.

wait... right now I have a cloistered cleric who spent his level 1 feat on knowledge devotion. Are you saying I could trade away (aka, lose) the knowledge domain and get the knowledge devotion feat without actually spending a feat on it? but doesn't knowledge devotion require the knowledge domain as a prereq? and don't you need to actually have the various knowledge skills to maximize the benefit from knowledge devotion?

The Deej
2010-01-22, 09:37 PM
You don't need the domain to get the feat, your deity/paradigm simply has to have it on their list of domains. you don't even need to be a cleric.

For example, a cleric of pelor with the healing and sun domains could still take strength devotion and good devotion, and if he wishes could trade either his healing or sun domains for the corresponding domain feat (gaining an extra feat, but leaving him with only one domain).

The party fighter, who worships Heironeous also takes Law devotion and war devotion as two of his feats.

See how it works now?

Draz74
2010-01-22, 09:40 PM
You don't need the domain to get the feat, your deity/paradigm simply has to have it on their list of domains.

Eeesh, I didn't know that. So my Ehlonna worshipper can't take Knowledge Devotion? (He's certainly not going to switch deities.) Is this a rule, or just a guideline in CChamp?

Ryuuk
2010-01-22, 09:44 PM
There's something I don't get about this transaction:

Class Skills

The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

If you trade out the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, then you no longer have access to the domain, ergo, you don't have access to all the knowledge skills except for those granted by a regular credit. Therefore, you can't max out your ranks in the 6 knowledge skills you need to get the most out of Knowledge Devotion

JaronK
2010-01-22, 09:44 PM
The problem with this trade of course is that you then lose a bunch of knowledge skills as class skills. If you were going to get them some other way great, but if not you may have made a mistake.

JaronK

taltamir
2010-01-22, 09:54 PM
You don't need the domain to get the feat, your deity/paradigm simply has to have it on their list of domains. you don't even need to be a cleric.

For example, a cleric of pelor with the healing and sun domains could still take strength devotion and good devotion, and if he wishes could trade either his healing or sun domains for the corresponding domain feat (gaining an extra feat, but leaving him with only one domain).

The party fighter, who worships Heironeous also takes Law devotion and war devotion as two of his feats.

See how it works now?

ok, now I am getting it.
well... my godddess doesn't grant knowledge domain. i got it via cloistered.
but thanks for clarifying it for me.

The Deej
2010-01-22, 09:55 PM
Eeesh, I didn't know that. So my Ehlonna worshipper can't take Knowledge Devotion? (He's certainly not going to switch deities.) Is this a rule, or just a guideline in CChamp?

It's a rule in the beginning of the feat section in CC under domain feats. I'd post the relevant paragraphs if I were sure if it was legal to do so.

Temotei
2010-01-22, 09:57 PM
There's something I don't get about this transaction:

Class Skills

The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

If you trade out the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, then you no longer have access to the domain, ergo, you don't have access to all the knowledge skills except for those granted by a regular credit. Therefore, you can't max out your ranks in the 6 knowledge skills you need to get the most out of Knowledge Devotion

Which is why I had a different response. :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2010-01-22, 10:03 PM
If you trade out the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, then you no longer have access to the domain, ergo, you don't have access to all the knowledge skills except for those granted by a regular credit. Therefore, you can't max out your ranks in the 6 knowledge skills you need to get the most out of Knowledge Devotion

You still get Arcana, Religion, and Planes from the regular Cleric skills, plus one more of your choice from Knowledge Devotion itself. Nature or Dungeoneering would be good picks, or Local if you know your DM prefers humanoid enemies to monsters. Sure, you won't know everything about everything, but you will have skill points to spend on things other than making your Devotion feat more effective.

Temotei
2010-01-22, 10:06 PM
You still get Arcana, Religion, and Planes from the regular Cleric skills, plus one more of your choice from Knowledge Devotion itself. Nature or Dungeoneering would be good picks, or Local if you know your DM prefers humanoid enemies to monsters. Sure, you won't know everything about everything, but you will have skill points to spend on things other than making your Devotion feat more effective.

But you can't be a know-it-all that way.

It's a lot of fun to be a know-it-all.
"I knew this was going to happen because history said so."
"Why the...didn't you tell us then?!"
"Because you must learn, my sons."
"...:smallsigh:"

Ryuuk
2010-01-22, 10:10 PM
You still get Arcana, Religion, and Planes from the regular Cleric skills, plus one more of your choice from Knowledge Devotion itself. Nature or Dungeoneering would be good picks, or Local if you know your DM prefers humanoid enemies to monsters. Sure, you won't know everything about everything, but you will have skill points to spend on things other than making your Devotion feat more effective.

Ah, I probably should have looked at whatever Knowledge skills the regular cleric got. Religion, Arcana and Planes grant you most of the nasty fantasy enemies, so even without all the skills you still end up with nice coverage. The extra skill could do very well in Knowledge: Local too, since that covers all humanoids.

Gametime
2010-01-22, 10:20 PM
You still get Arcana, Religion, and Planes from the regular Cleric skills, plus one more of your choice from Knowledge Devotion itself. Nature or Dungeoneering would be good picks, or Local if you know your DM prefers humanoid enemies to monsters. Sure, you won't know everything about everything, but you will have skill points to spend on things other than making your Devotion feat more effective.

A truly pedantic DM would point out that the Cloistered Cleric's skills don't actually grant it any of those knowledges. It is a variant class, and thus RAW dictate that you can't use the normal Cleric class features where alternatives are noted. Thus, giving up the Knowledge Domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat would result in a CC with only one knowledge as a class skill - the one from Devotion.

...Of course, such a DM is being a giant tool, but I just thought I'd point that out.

tyckspoon
2010-01-22, 10:23 PM
A truly pedantic DM would point out that the Cloistered Cleric's skills don't actually grant it any of those knowledges. It is a variant class, and thus RAW dictate that you can't use the normal Cleric class features where alternatives are noted. Thus, giving up the Knowledge Domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat would result in a CC with only one knowledge as a class skill - the one from Devotion.

...Of course, such a DM is being a giant tool, but I just thought I'd point that out.

The pedantic player would point out, in turn, that the Skills section of the variants mentions only alterations from the base, and said alterations are only additions and not subtractions- if this was not so, his class skill list would consist only of Speak Language, Decipher Script, and Knowledge (all). Hence, when you remove the Knowledge domain, you refer back to the base cleric list for what his skills become. In order to remove those skills, the Cloistered Cleric variant would actually have to say something like "Remove Knowledge (Planes, Arcana, Religion, History) from the Cleric's skill list. Add Knowledge (All)."

taltamir
2010-01-22, 11:09 PM
Knowledge Devotion (my own summary of the feat):
Arcana: constructs, dragons, magical beasts
Dungeoneering: aberrations, oozes
Local: humanoids
Nature: animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin
Religion: gods and goddesses, undead
The planes: outsiders, elementals

Roll a knowledge check per relevant creature type; 1 check per combat per creature type; seperate checks for different types that share the same knowledge (ex: constructs and dragons are different checks). Get a bonus to all attacks and damage against said creature type for remainder of combat.

Bonus = Check Result:
+1 = 15 or below
+2 = 16–25
+3 = 26–30
+4 = 31–35
+5 = 36 or higher

Tyndmyr
2010-01-23, 12:58 AM
You don't need the domain to get the feat, your deity/paradigm simply has to have it on their list of domains. you don't even need to be a cleric.


Huh. So, could a domain wizard trade out his domain for the appropriate devotion feat?

Considering said wizard will, at a minimum, have a stupid int modifier and great Knowledge(Arcana), this seems interesting.

Also, useful for gishes.

tyckspoon
2010-01-23, 01:10 AM
Huh. So, could a domain wizard trade out his domain for the appropriate devotion feat?

Considering said wizard will, at a minimum, have a stupid int modifier and great Knowledge(Arcana), this seems interesting.

Also, useful for gishes.

If you're referring to the Unearthed Arcana variant, no. They don't actually get a clerical domain to trade out. It's just a variant specialization.

Teron
2010-01-23, 01:11 AM
Huh. So, could a domain wizard trade out his domain for the appropriate devotion feat?

Considering said wizard will, at a minimum, have a stupid int modifier and great Knowledge(Arcana), this seems interesting.

Also, useful for gishes.
Wizard domains use different mechanics, and explicitely aren't equivalent to cleric domains.


Some of the arcane domains described below have the same name as a divine domain. Regardless of any apparent similarity, these domains have no connection to one another.

2xMachina
2010-01-23, 02:28 AM
Dip Inquisitor. Trade Inquisition for Knowledge Devotion. Laugh as you have both the Knowledge Domain and Knowledge Devotion.