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Vinsurgent
2010-01-23, 12:32 AM
I'll be DMing my first campaign with a group of first-time players soon, and I'd like to use the party from my last campaign as NPC antagonists for this one. I'd either have some sort of corrupted/alternate universe/evil doppelganger version of my old party fight them, or maybe have the two parties competing for the same goal/item to add conflict.

Most encounters would still use the standard MM format, but I was thinking the antagonist party could act as a series of bosses (in the video game sense), in the place of a solo monster, and then maybe have the two parties fight eachother in a final battle.


However, I'm not sure how best to do any of this, so my main questions are as follows:

1. Does anyone have any tips, tricks, or guidelines for using PCs as NPCs?
2. Can I apply the same XP budget of a monster encounter to determine the level of an enemy (N)PC or party?
3. Any general tips for a first time DM?
4. Any cool campaign ideas that you've been wanting to see/try out?

**EDIT: See my posts below for further info

Swordgleam
2010-01-23, 12:47 AM
In regards to 2, the 4e DMG has specific guidelines for building NPCs. So that should answer that.

I think there's a few first-time-DM-tips threads floating around. My big advice is this: as long as everyone's having fun, don't worry about it. ("It" being if you're getting the rules exactly right, have exactly the right xp in encounters, giving out the right loot, having the right balance of story/fights, etc.)

The NewbieDM blog (http://newbiedm.com/) also has a lot of good tips for new DMs, especially for 4e.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-01-23, 01:19 AM
In 4e, PC and NPC rules are segregated to a much higher degree than in 3.5. For example, in 4e, a PC has some pretty incredible nova power, especially at higher levels, with all those dailies. Of course, PCs in actual games have to fight multiple battles per day, and so generally don't start throwing around web/stinking cloud combos or whatnot. A 4e monster, on the other hand, is assumed not to do so, and therefore is built differently. NPCs can use multiple action points per encounter. NPCs are expected to use all of their encounters, every fight. I've never fought a PC-NPC in 4e, but the system is really not built for it.

Choco
2010-01-23, 01:59 AM
What they said.

However, if you really want to do it, you should have them fight right after the PC's had an extended rest, so both parties have full encounter/daily powers and healing surges etc. Then it becomes something similar to a PvP arena match. That being said, you had better be prepared for the PC's to have double the magic items and money they are supposed to have should they win since they will loot their opponents after all. Also since this is probably the perfect example of an evenly matched fight, be prepared for them to lose if they make stupid mistakes or simply roll bad, or for some of them to die even if they end up winning.

But if you are prepared for all that it seems like a good and fun idea. It all depends on how militant your players are about the rules, but since you have opted to do 4e over 3.5 I am guessing it isn't as important for your group, so have at it!

Guy
2010-01-23, 02:36 AM
Do not, do not, do not, ever, under any circumstances, create enemies using PC creation rules.

DabblerWizard
2010-01-23, 07:12 AM
As far as I can tell, 4e NPCs are supposed to have fewer powers than PCs, for one thing. They make up for this point by having inflated HP and decent defenses.

If you made a NPC/PC hybrid, with high HP, defenses, and powers, you'd have an encounter that would likely end in a TPK for players.

Allan Surgite
2010-01-23, 08:41 AM
I'd recommend taking "broad strokes" regarding the PCs-turned-bosses.

Don't bother recreating them exactly with the NPC rules, just make sure you've got everything right generally (e.g. don't turn the party Barbarian into a genius Wizard).

Duos Greanleef
2010-01-23, 09:39 AM
I'd recommend taking "broad strokes" regarding the PCs-turned-bosses.

Don't bother recreating them exactly with the NPC rules, just make sure you've got everything right generally (e.g. don't turn the party Barbarian into a genius Wizard).

This is my thought exactly.
That being said, having a rival party is a wonderful thing, and it's really as much about the story as it is the number-crunching anyways (if not more) so broad strokes are a good thing.
The way I'd personally go about it though is to build each (N)PC as a standard monster three levels above the party. That makes them a tough encounter (assuming that you have the same number of party members before and after).

See DMG 186 and DMG2131 for building your (N)PCs.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-23, 10:15 AM
Do not, do not, do not, ever, under any circumstances, create enemies using PC creation rules.

Any rule can be broken, but some, like this one, should not be broken until you are extremely comfortable/experienced as a DM.

I'd suggest using regular NPCs for a while...then busting out the ones that reference the characters. References to past events are always cooler when it's been long enough that nobody gets it right away.

Artanis
2010-01-23, 11:09 AM
Do not, do not, do not, ever, under any circumstances, create enemies using PC creation rules.


Any rule can be broken, but some, like this one, should not be broken until you are extremely comfortable/experienced as a DM.

These. A thousand times these. The NPC creation rules are there for a damned good reason, so if you're going to make NPCs, use those rules.

Asbestos
2010-01-23, 01:18 PM
I certainly hope you didn't plan on giving them the equipment of the old party.

Vinsurgent
2010-01-23, 02:28 PM
Ok, so it sounds like the consensus is that I shouldn't use PCs as enemies.

After reading the NPC section of the DMG, I think I'll just make regular NPCs (solo when appropriate) mimicking the old party. That seems like the best bet.

As for looting, I was planning on having some excuse to disallow it, tied to the reason for the enemy party being evil in the first place. For example, if they're from an alternate reality, the magic holding them in the PC's world severs, and they disappear. Or maybe their weapons and armor were summoned and disappear when they fall, or they're just all too damaged to use/sell.

Shardan
2010-01-23, 02:41 PM
Using the previous PC types as new NPC's is okay. Some players might be annoyed at it though. just remember to rebuild the PC's using the NPC rules.
Build NPC's and just fluff them as the PC's you are wanting to spotlight

definately beware of throwing PC items... maybe some form of recall spell so when they get dropped they teleport back to their 'employer' to get raised/cloned/animated