paladin leadership by nonpaladins?

[Forbiddenwar]

I was reading another thread and something hit me. Soon, who believed the best way to protect a gate was with paladin's honor, entrusted the leadership of the sapphire guard and the protection of the gate to Shojo's father, a nonpaladin, who handed it to Shojo, another nonpaladin. Does this strike anyone as odd behavior? Would the gate have remained in one piece and Xykon be dead(er?), if Shojo was a paladin?

[Shale]

It's entirely possible. As far as Gate defense goes, the Order's presence at Azure City did nothing more than delay Xykon for a bit before he entered the throne room. Without Shojo working around the oath, the Order wouldn't have been there, but Miko wouldn't have turned on the Sapphire Guard, thus allowing Soon to finish what he started.

The thing is, that doesn't guarantee that a human would have ever entered that throne room, and without a corporeal person to destroy the phylactery, the whole ghost-paladin assault is for nothing. Another goblin cleric puts on the Crimson Mantle, Xykon regenerates, and Azure City falls regardless. The real question there is whether the additional troops gained by not replacing Shojo with a new ruler under suspicious circumstances are enough to turn the tide, especially if it means losing strong PCs in the bargain.

And whether or not that specific circumstance would have played out well for Azure City, I think you have a point. That answering to a non-paladin could fracture the Guard is something Soon should have considered (maybe he did and decided to go through with it anyway; we don't know).

[Narazil]

The thing is, that doesn't guarantee that a human would have ever entered that throne room, and without a corporeal person to destroy the phylactery, the whole ghost-paladin assault is for nothing. Another goblin cleric puts on the Crimson Mantle, Xykon regenerates, and Azure City falls regardless. The real question there is whether the additional troops gained by not replacing Shojo with a new ruler under suspicious circumstances are enough to turn the tide, especially if it means losing strong PCs in the bargain.

Soon was able to strike Xykon and cause physical damage. Why wouldn't he be able to destroy the phylactery?

[Nimrod's Son]

Soon was able to strike Xykon and cause physical damage. Why wouldn't he be able to destroy the phylactery?
"I may not be able to smash it myself due to my insubstantial nature - but I can instruct the first human to enter the room about the particulars". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)

Note that he doesn't say he CAN'T smash it himself, just that he MAY not be able to. Having never tried it before, I guess he doesn't know.

[Narazil]

"I may not be able to smash it myself due to my insubstantial nature - but I can instruct the first human to enter the room about the particulars". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)

Note that he doesn't say he CAN'T smash it himself, just that he MAY not be able to. Having never tried it before, I guess he doesn't know.
Ah. Missed that.
From that quote, it's pretty obvious he can't, heh. I'm not much of a grammar cop, but "I may be not be able to, but" doesn't mean he might not be able to, but that he can't.

I think his point is, however, that he has 1d10 days to act.

[Ozymandias9]

Because of his "insubstantial nature." He's incorporeal, so there are severe limits on what he can physically do-- his attacks are actually probably positive energy rather than physical.

In fairness, the rules on incorporeal creatures have always been a bit cobbled together to make a distinction between incorporeal and ethereal creatures.

[Azukar]

To rope this wandering topic back toward the original question, it's almost to the level of Chaos theory. Paladin!Shojo would've done so many things differently over his lengthy reign that you can't even close to predict how events would turn out.

[TriForce]

also, how come we are sure shojo's father was no paladin? as far as ive read it, only shojo himself wasnt

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Does this strike anyone as odd behavior?
Not especially. Two reasons:
Shojo’s position was purely administrative. Many organizations devoted to a certain type of person will have more open requirements in administration. He’s kinda like a female troop leader in a Boy Scout troop.
Shojo inherited the position from his father, not Soon. Who knows what Shojo’s father’s attitude was?

[Barlen]

The thing is, that doesn't guarantee that a human would have ever entered that throne room, and without a corporeal person to destroy the phylactery, the whole ghost-paladin assault is for nothing. Another goblin cleric puts on the Crimson Mantle, Xykon regenerates, and Azure City falls regardless. The real question there is whether the additional troops gained by not replacing Shojo with a new ruler under suspicious circumstances are enough to turn the tide, especially if it means losing strong PCs in the bargain.

O-chul was already in the room and alive, but paralyzed. Soon could have guarded him till the paralysis wore off (if it didn't when Soon killed Xykon). For that matter if Miko had talked to Soon before destroying the gate it would have ended right there.

However, who exactly founded Azure city? Was it there (and had its own line of rulers) before Soon founded the Sapphire guard? If so what happened would have been that after sealing the gate Soon founds the Sapphire guard and they swear allegiance to the EXISTING king/ruler of the city and his heirs.

Edit: Just checked the Crayons of time (comics 275/276). Soon was a paladin native to Azure city, so the city does pre-date him. Soon transfers the leadership of the sapphire guard to the existing legitimate ruler (who is probably LG at the time, but not necessarily a paladin). Given that the gate is in the middle of an existing city, submitting to the legitimate existing authority is very much in keeping with the behavior of a paladin.

[Hurkyl]

O-chul was already in the room and alive, but paralyzed. Soon could have guarded him till the paralysis wore off (if it didn't when Soon killed Xykon).
It doesn't wear off.

[werik]

I'd like to echo some of the things others have said. It would be logical for the Sapphire Guard to ally with the local leader. Furthermore, if the tower was built around the gem on the leader's throne, it would be advantageous for Soon to have his paladins have an unquestionable motive for constantly surrounding it. I do understand the OP's point: for one who believed in the honor of a paladin, why risk protecting the gem with a non-paladin? Other than the answers stated, it would be worth pointing out that Soon had no other friends or allies at this point. A sustained defense force after his death would need to be supplied by somebody, so why not the Azurites?

Furthermore, to address some of the groundless speculation done by Shale, Shojo actually had a better chance of stopping Xykon than a Paladin leader. Unless a Paladin leader changed the law and decided to abandon Soon's Oath, they wouldn't be looking out for Xykon or any other gate. Xykon and Redcloak still would have blindsided the city, and this time without the Order of the Stick. The Order actually came the closest to stopping it. Had Roy only phrased his question correctly they could have raised the alarm long before that, delaying their battle with the Linear Guild, and allowing the city to create more defensive preparations. But again, that's all speculation, too.

[derfenrirwolv]

Its actually very common. Most paladins don't run the country in which they reside. Since they are both lawful and good, they are bound to obey whichever ruler is in place. Someone REALLY has to go over to the darkside before a paladin can justify overthrowing them.

[factotum]

If Shojo had been a paladin? He'd have been dead 40 years earlier. Look at what happened once Hinjo assumed the throne--there were at least three assassination attempts we know about within the first couple of days! Paladins are not ideally suited to guarding against that sort of thing, because it requires knowledge of subterfuge, which is alien to the Paladin mindset.

In fact, it's entirely possible the situation would be worse; imagine what would happen if Kubota were in charge of the city during the crisis, for instance. He'd have quite happily let Xykon into the throne room and perform any rituals he wanted so long as he agreed to not attack the city!