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Myou
2010-01-23, 12:40 PM
I just noticed that the same with this spell is 'Fortitude negates (object); see text'. Looking at the spell more closely, it seems to me that living creatures have no defence at all against it - the save is only for objects and there's no attack roll - so what is meant to stop the spell instantly defeating any living creature?

Grumman
2010-01-23, 12:45 PM
I just noticed that the same with this spell is 'Fortitude negates (object); see text'. Looking at the spell more closely, it seems to me that living creatures have no defence at all against it - the save is only for objects and there's no attack roll - so what is meant to stop the spell instantly defeating any living creature?
Incorrect. "Fortitude negates (object)" simply distinguishes it from "Fortitude negates", which cannot affect objects at all. Both objects and creatures can make the Fort save.

taltamir
2010-01-23, 12:45 PM
you are a level 15+ wizard, you win DND...

Myou
2010-01-23, 12:48 PM
Incorrect. "Fortitude negates (object)" simply distinguishes it from "Fortitude negates", which cannot affect objects at all. Both objects and creatures can make the Fort save.

This I did not know. ^^;

I thought that Fortitude negates (object), meant only objects got the save. Is there somewhere in the PHB that can confirm that for my group?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-23, 12:50 PM
Stone to Flesh, maybe? If game balance isn't enough?

kamikasei
2010-01-23, 12:51 PM
This I did not know. ^^;

I thought that Fortitude negates (object), meant only objects got the save. Is there somewhere in the PHB that can confirm that for my group?

It's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow).


The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-23, 12:52 PM
I just noticed that the same with this spell is 'Fortitude negates (object); see text'. Looking at the spell more closely, it seems to me that living creatures have no defence at all against it - the save is only for objects and there's no attack roll - so what is meant to stop the spell instantly defeating any living creature?
Basic human decency?

taltamir
2010-01-23, 12:52 PM
there is also spell resistance: yes (object)
so you need to bypass a fort check and a spell resistance check...

of course, casting PaO on an enemy and in combat is a horrible sub par use of this spell...

Polymorph any object yourself and your familiar into spellhoarding greatwyrm gold dragons if wizard, or just greatwyrm gold dragon if sorcerer. Cast it twice in a row. First time it has a 12 hour duration, second time it has a permanent duration since you are the same creature type. (check the PaO duration chart)

Great wyrms give you level 19 casting that stacks with class levels... you just jumped from being a level 15 wizard/sorc to a level 34 wizard/sorc... and can assume any humanoid or animal form (while maintaining all your powers) at will, so you even look the same... Oh an PaO actually gives you a greatwyrms racial bonuses... so replace your own racial bonuses with
STR +33
DEX +0
CON +21
INT +20
WIS +21
CHA +20

enjoy winning DnD.

if epic magic is allowed, use your epic spellcasting to create a super creature (using genesis) and true mind switch with it. so that a disjunction does not revert you.

Myou
2010-01-23, 12:55 PM
It's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow).

Ah, I always read that as meaning only the object gets to save, but while it doesn't actually say creatures still get a save, it does imply that they do.

I hate WotC's complete ineptitude, these things need to be clearly spelt out, not just implied. :smallannoyed:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-23, 12:56 PM
That relies on a dubious and slightly counterintuitive interpretation of "original state". I find the more straightforward brokenness (Shivering Touch, DMM Persist, Celerity + Daze Immunity, Incantatrix, Pun-Pun) more tasteful.


I hate WotC's complete ineptitude, these things need to be clearly spelt out, not just implied. :smallannoyed:

There are three spells in the SRD labeled "fortitude negates (object)" One of them is Weapon of Energy, which is unambiguous. One of them is Stone to Flesh, which is elaborated upon in the text. The last is PaO, which has an obvious interpretation if you want a non-broken game.

Myou
2010-01-23, 12:58 PM
you are a level 15+ wizard, you win DND...

Hardly, if you're a 15th level wizard then there's a 20th level wizard out to kill you, otherwise there's no plot. :smalltongue:


Basic human decency?

Since when were powergamers human? :smallwink:

I tend to powergame at times too so I can't talk.

taltamir
2010-01-23, 12:59 PM
That relies on a dubious and slightly counterintuitive interpretation of "original state". I find the more straightforward brokenness (Shivering Touch, DMM Persist, Celerity + Daze Immunity, Incantatrix, Pun-Pun) more tasteful.

even if you do not take that interpretation.... assuming dragons are reptiles and humanoids are all mammels, the transformation lasts 12 hours. thats enough time for you to rest and regain spells per day as a level 34 wizard/sorc instead of level 15 and still have enough time to begin ascension

The thing about this "win button" is:
1. any wizard gets it at level 15, and any sorcerer at level 16... no optimization is needed. your species is irrelevant, your feats are irrelevant...
2. It is all core


Hardly, if you're a 15th level wizard then there's a 20th level wizard out to kill you, otherwise there's no plot. :smalltongue:

no, ascended wizards are all hiding in their own demiplane, immortal and untouchable by even the gods themselves as long as they don't leave (they can make a simulcrum of themselves and send it wherever they need).

Grumman
2010-01-23, 01:03 PM
Polymorph any object yourself and your familiar into spellhoarding greatwyrm gold dragons if wizard, or just greatwyrm gold dragon if sorcerer. Cast it twice in a row. First time it has a 12 hour duration, second time it has a permanent duration since you are the same creature type. (check the PaO duration chart)
I would not permit this kind of trick in my games, but even if I did, you're still doing it wrong:


Great wyrms give you level 19 casting that stacks with class levels... you just jumped from being a level 15 wizard/sorc to a level 34 wizard/sorc... and can assume any humanoid or animal form (while maintaining all your powers) at will, so you even look the same...
enjoy winning DnD.
PaO is based of Polymorph, which does not grant any Supernatural or Spell-like Abilities.

Even if it did, a Great Wyrm has significantly more than 15 HD, meaning you cannot PaO into a Great Wyrm in the first place.

Edit:

There are three spells in the SRD labeled "fortitude negates (object)" One of them is Weapon of Energy, which is unambiguous. One of them is Stone to Flesh, which is elaborated upon in the text. The last is PaO, which has an obvious interpretation if you want a non-broken game.
You also have Disintegrate, which is "Fortitude partial (object)".