PDA

View Full Version : The Binder: Good idea?



onthetown
2010-01-23, 12:49 PM
I've got a level 9 Wizard/Ranger Gestalt that might be multiclassing soon. I'm under the impression that something tragic is going to happen to her loved one, and she's going to want to do everything she can for revenge. Instead of sticking with the Wizard/Ranger bit (she's an Abjurer), I figured I'd look for something a little darker that will suit her character after she gets out of that event. I looked in my Tome of Magic and found the Binder. I'm wondering if it's good, not just for flavour, but for being productive.

The points I've thought of, and I'm not sure whether it'll be worth it or not in the end:


She's only casting 5th level spells at the moment, so becoming a Binder will sacrifice anything higher.
BAB is going to be a significant drop from what she's getting as a Ranger.
The vestiges are fun to read about, but it looks like they're more for flavour than for the power. I'm not sure if she'll end up getting insanely powerful, or if she's just better of with Wizard/Ranger.


Alternatively, is Shadow Magic something to look in to? If not, what are some good, magic-flavoured classes or prestige classes that will give her the sort of ultimate revenge power she's looking for? I'm aiming for the typical "hero loses loved one and dips into dark stuff to get revenge".

Edit: We tend to get into some pretty powerful, difficult encounters, so something with equal fluff and crunch merits would be nice.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-23, 12:51 PM
Power wise, you'd best stick with Wizard/Ranger.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-23, 01:00 PM
Power-Wise, get into initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. You should have all prerequisites by now.

There are some good Binder classes, but unless there's a specific thing you want to dip for (Hellfire Warlock build for Naberious, for an example), most of the fun stuff (like Manticore fun) requires a heavy investment in Binder.

If Swift hunter is allowed, I'd go with Scout for the next three levels on the Ranger side

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-23, 01:02 PM
unless there's a specific thing you want to dip for

Like Anima Mage metamagic reduction?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-23, 01:04 PM
Like Anima Mage metamagic reduction?

That too :P

But Iot7V is still way more powerful.

Magnor Criol
2010-01-23, 01:22 PM
Binder is generally considered to be a pretty decently powered class, though much depends on what vestiges you bind. I personally love them for their flavor - they just have an amazing feel to them that is so much fun. I haven't gotten to actually play one in-game though, so I don't know their actual performance from personal experience.

Speaking purely from a fluff perspective, I think it sounds like an excellent idea; Binder has that great "dark forbidden secrets" feel to it and it seems like someone looking for revenge would be drawn to its taboo feel.

Plus, if she ever starts on the classic redemption arc and tries to get back out of the dark mires of revenge, there's plenty of good-flavored vestiges to use.

Ryuuk
2010-01-23, 01:29 PM
Wizard//Ranger/Binder/Anima Mage might be good.

Technically Anima Mage is a dual progression class, but they way I've always seen gestalt, getting the same class feature on both sides at once doesn't stack (so the +1 to wizard casting from Wizard and +1 form Anima Mage would not give you +2 at that level, just the single +1). You would still only be progressing two 'classes' so a DM might allow it (At least I would, more than allowing someone to go Anima Mage//Ranger since this would Progress Binding, Arcane Casting and cover what weaknesses those classes get with Ranger).

Assuming its a green light, Anima Mage would give you that Dark Side bit you wanted, since now you don't just make pacts with the vestiges, you go back on what you promise them, you use these beings as nothing more than the means to an end. Anima Mage would let you use your bound vestiges to boost your casting, getting some bonus spells and some metamagic reducers.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-23, 01:36 PM
Alternatively, a lot of DMs will allow dual-progression classes if you qualify for it entirely on one side.

onthetown
2010-01-23, 03:25 PM
These are all great ideas, thanks guys :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, I don't have any of the feats for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and getting the 3 of them will take until level 18.


Plus, if she ever starts on the classic redemption arc and tries to get back out of the dark mires of revenge, there's plenty of good-flavored vestiges to use.

This really sparked an idea in my mind. The character I'm talking about happens to worship Eilistraee; are there any Lolth-y classes around? I don't have much material on the Underdark or the drow, just the basic stuff we're using.

Optimystik
2010-01-23, 05:23 PM
This really sparked an idea in my mind. The character I'm talking about happens to worship Eilistraee; are there any Lolth-y classes around? I don't have much material on the Underdark or the drow, just the basic stuff we're using.

Yathrinshee, PGtF. It's a dual arcane/divine PrC for Drow.

It's generally regarded as being hilariously bad, however.

onthetown
2010-01-23, 05:55 PM
I think I'll go with Binder/Anima Mage. If anybody else has ideas for what sort of fallen hero classes or prestige classes exist and would work well (with hopefully most of the emphasis on magic), I'm still open. We're a long way away from the next level.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-23, 06:05 PM
I think I'll go with Binder/Anima Mage. If anybody else has ideas for what sort of fallen hero classes or prestige classes exist and would work well (with hopefully most of the emphasis on magic), I'm still open. We're a long way away from the next level.

You would only need 1 level in binder and the feat Improved Binding (or something), which allows you to bind vestiges as if you were 2 levels higher, allowing you to get a 2nd level vestige at first level. By retraining one of your feats (using the retraining system from PHBII) after to take one level in binder, you could go into Amina Mage next level.

Thus:
10th Binder/Wizard
11th-20 Anima Mage/Ranger

This way, you don't lose any caster levels and only 1 point of BAB.

Alternatively, you could take the Escalation Mage prestige class from Faiths of Eberron. The basic idea is you mkae caster level checks to get free metamagic (ie, like incantatrix but sane). If you fail the check, the spell still works, but you take HP damage and occasionally some other side effects. The flavor is that you're a disciple of the Shadow (CE god of magic) and you're bargaining for the power.

onthetown
2010-01-23, 06:13 PM
10th Binder/Wizard
11th-20 Anima Mage/Ranger


I'm confused at that... maybe just the way it's shown... but I'm already a level 9 Wizard/Ranger. Wouldn't it be 9th Wizard/Ranger, 1st Binder, 10th Anima Mage?

Bibliomancer
2010-01-23, 06:28 PM
I'm confused at that... maybe just the way it's shown... but I'm already a level 9 Wizard/Ranger. Wouldn't it be 9th Wizard/Ranger, 1st Binder, 10th Anima Mage?

Sorry. Levels 1-9 you're ranger/wizard.

Level 10, take binder/wizard

Levels 11-20, take anima mage/ranger

net result: wizard casting as a level 20 wizard, +all anima mage special abilities, +soul binding as a 13th level binder (the feat gives you +2 for binding purposes, not power of abilities), +all ranger abilities short of 20th level. End result: wizard 10/ranger 19/binder 1/anima mage 10 (gestalt).

Note: I might be wrong about the feat (ie it might require a minimum binder level, but I don't think that it does).

onthetown
2010-01-23, 06:33 PM
Not sure if my DM would allow... gestalting within gestalt? Multiclassing within multiclass? I don't really understand how that works.

Anima Mage just requires being able to bind a level 2 vestige, so the feat would work.

I could always just take the feat, take Binder for 1 level, then Anima Mage for the rest. I wouldn't lose any spell levels, just one spell per day loss at the end. I really don't think my DM would let me multiclass with another gestalt.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-23, 06:36 PM
Not sure if my DM would allow... gestalting within gestalt? Multiclassing within multiclass? I don't really understand how that works.

Anima Mage just requires being able to bind a level 2 vestige, so the feat would work.

I could always just take the feat, take Binder for 1 level, then Anima Mage for the rest. I wouldn't lose any spell levels, just one spell per day loss at the end. I really don't think my DM would let me multiclass with another gestalt.

I thought that the way gestalt worked was that each level you picked two classes and combined them, thus allowing you to multiclass to 2 different things. Thus, at any given level you're only taking 2 classes so you're just muticlassing within gestalt. Note that the end result is effectively 40 levels of benefits (but not BAB, skills, or saves) at level 20, the same as if you took wizard/ranger to level 20.

Even if he didn't let you multiclass to another gestalt (which he should, if I understand the rules correctly, but in a world of gestalts there are no single classes), then Anima mage would still be quite powerful, but not as good as wizard/ranger. The extra metamagic abilities and vestiges don't offset the lost caster level, BAB, and saves. You'd probably be best off staying as a wizard/ranger.

onthetown
2010-01-23, 06:42 PM
Even less powerful, I would still be safe with access to my spells.

I hope you're right, and that does sound right to me. If he can find it and approves it, Binder/Wizard and Anima Mage/Ranger sounds like it'll be exactly what I'm looking for.

Rasman
2010-01-23, 06:42 PM
That too :P

But Iot7V is still way more powerful.

/agree Iot7V is as sick as it gets, in my book, although you might not be able to get into it until 7th or 8th level, depends on your current feats

onthetown
2010-01-23, 06:46 PM
/agree Iot7V is as sick as it gets, in my book, although you might not be able to get into it until 7th or 8th level, depends on your current feats

If I tried to work for it now, it'd be 18th level before I got all of the prereq feats for it. :smalleek:

Bibliomancer
2010-01-23, 06:47 PM
Even less powerful, I would still be safe with access to my spells.

I hope you're right, and that does sound right to me, but I don't think he's really got much experience with gestalts (nor do I; this is my only and first one). If so, Binder/Wizard and Anima Mage/Ranger sounds like it'll be exactly what I'm looking for.

Does your DM allow feat retraining?


/agree Iot7V is as sick as it gets, in my book, although you might not be able to get into it until 7th or 8th level, depends on your current feats

The minimum level to get into Iot7V is 9, since one of the requirement is 12 skill ranks in knowledge (arcana). Its an interesting class, but the requirements are somewhat onerous, the flavor doesn't fit here, and if you're going for raw power incantatrix wins every time (although is often banned).

onthetown
2010-01-23, 07:22 PM
Does your DM allow feat retraining?


I have no clue. I hadn't even heard of it until you mentioned it. You might just be a lifesaver.

Flickerdart
2010-01-23, 07:31 PM
The rules are in PHBII, I believe.

onthetown
2010-01-23, 07:37 PM
I don't have PHBII, and I can't find anything on Google about how to retrain...

But even if I don't retrain to get Improved Binding, all I have to do is take 2 levels of Binder instead of 1. In the end, because Anima Mage gives me my spell progression, that effectively makes me an 18th level Wizard who can still cast 9th level spells, just less per day than a 20th level Wizard.

Even if my DM doesn't allow the gestalting multiclass stuff that we're having a hard time wrapping our heads around, I just have to give up progression as a Ranger. I still have 9th level spells and a horde of vestiges at my whim, not to mention passable combat skills.

Methinks I'll be fine with this arrangement.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-24, 06:40 PM
Feat retraining in the PHBII works as follows:

At any level, in the normal order of leveling up (as detailed towards the end of chapter three in the PHB), you may replace any feat that you have with any other feat that you qualify for and could have qualified for at that level. Thus, you can replace Toughness (gained at level one) with Weapon Focus, but not Improved Critical because that has a minimum BAB requirement.

The feat I mentioned (I'm assuming you have ToM?) has only 4 ranks of Intimidate as a prerequisite, so you can put 4 skill points from binder into Intimidate, then retrain any other feat (except a wizard bonus feat) to that feat.

This will allow you to qualify for anima mage next level, assuming your alignment is non-good.