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View Full Version : [3.5] The Polymorph Subschool



Myou
2010-01-23, 07:56 PM
After earlier talk of Polymorph and Object I took a closer look at the spell, and concluded I didn't like the way it functioned, but in trying to rewrite it I ran into a problem - either you keep all your class levels and gain the abilities of an equal-CR monster, or you become an equal CR monster completely, losing all previous abilities, which is pretty lame and probably never worth using - you're already a wizard, what equal CR enemy would you even want to be?

I can't seem to find a middle ground here - either you're getting something for nothing, or the spell isn't worth casting, and really all the Polymorph spells are like that.

I would just ban the whle lot of them, but wizards turning people into frogs and turning pumpkins into carriages is pretty iconic magic, so what am I to do? Does anyone have any suggestions or fixes that are relatively simple and that keep the turn-anything-into-anything effect without being broken?

Mastikator
2010-01-23, 08:00 PM
If I remember correctly you get to keep your mental stats but your physical ones are adjusted for the new race's racial physical adjustments. So if you turn yourself into an orc, which is LA +0, you keep everything, gain darkvision and +4 strength.
If you turn yourself into a dwarf, you keep everything, gain +2 consitution and darkvision, (and some other useless stuff).

So if you start out as a human, you get a bunch of skills and a feat for free, then you turn yourself into a dwarf, getting the dwarf bonuses, and the human bonuses.
For free.
Seems pretty gimped to me.

Myou
2010-01-23, 08:02 PM
If I remember correctly you get to keep your mental stats but your physical ones are adjusted for the new race's racial physical adjustments. So if you turn yourself into an orc, which is LA +0, you keep everything, gain darkvision and +4 strength.
If you turn yourself into a dwarf, you keep everything, gain +2 consitution and darkvision, (and some other useless stuff).

So if you start out as a human, you get a bunch of skills and a feat for free, then you turn yourself into a dwarf, getting the dwarf bonuses, and the human bonuses.
For free.
Seems pretty gimped to me.


What spell are you talking about? PaO lets you become anything. That's the issue. You can turn into creatures with extra standard actions or innate spellcastig, and you do get their mental stats.

Mastikator
2010-01-23, 08:05 PM
Edit- ops misunderstanding.

My opinion is to say "neversomething more powerful than you already are" and "you don't get to keep spellcasting abilities", also "permanent is dispellable". I don't think that's necessarily underpowered or useless.

Myou
2010-01-23, 08:13 PM
Edit- ops misunderstanding.

My opinion is to say "neversomething more powerful than you already are" and "you don't get to keep spellcasting abilities", also "permanent is dispellable". I don't think that's necessarily underpowered or useless.

Ahhh, gotcha.

Well, thing is that if you don't get to keep casting then doesn't prevent them using a plethora of other broken monster abilities with their class levels, and if you don't keep class levels then you might as well retire the old character and play a monster. And the ability to dispel PaO was what I wanted to change to begin with. xD

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-23, 08:15 PM
I would just ban the whle lot of them, but wizards turning people into frogs and turning pumpkins into carriages is pretty iconic magic, so what am I to do?
Don't allow long-term (hour/level) polymorphing into higher-CR creatures nor more-valuable objects?


Does anyone have any suggestions or fixes that are relatively simple and that keep the turn-anything-into-anything effect without being broken?
Being able to turn anything into anything is a broken ability. Game balance requires restrictions on what a character can do. The only way to make that not broken is to make every character that versatile.

Mastikator
2010-01-23, 08:15 PM
Wait huh? You want the wizard to have the ability to turn himself into a super-hyper-giga dragon and stay that way forever and ever?

Myou
2010-01-23, 08:19 PM
Don't allow long-term (hour/level) polymorphing into higher-CR creatures nor more-valuable objects?


Being able to turn anything into anything is a broken ability. Game balance requires restrictions on what a character can do. The only way to make that not broken is to make every character that versatile.

Not anything, but anything reasonable. Bu the problem is that besides seperately approving every form I can't see a way to filter out the broken stuff.


Wait huh? You want the wizard to have the ability to turn himself into a super-hyper-giga dragon and stay that way forever and ever?

No, that would be beyond his hit dice. :smalltongue:

Flickerdart
2010-01-23, 08:23 PM
Another problem with the spells is that they change your creature type, meaning that tricks that could never otherwise work become possible, such as the Awaken loop.

Myou
2010-01-23, 08:32 PM
Another problem with the spells is that they change your creature type, meaning that tricks that could never otherwise work become possible, such as the Awaken loop.

Awaken loop? Somehow getting near-infinite mental stats with Awaken Animal?

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-23, 08:39 PM
the problem is that besides seperately approving every form I can't see a way to filter out the broken stuff.
So, just go ahead and assess things on a case-by-case basis, then? Then the wizard doesn't know for certain ahead of time exactly which transformations he can do, but he has a rough idea based on his understanding of which sorts of transformations are "harder". That doesn't strike me as implausible. It actually strikes me as more plausible than the wizard automagically knowing without trying exactly which transformations he can pull off.


Another problem with the spells is that they change your creature type, meaning that tricks that could never otherwise work become possible, such as the Awaken loop.
So change them not to change your creature type. Problem solved!

The Giant came up with a polymorph & co. overhaul, by the way. (Part 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html), Part 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/PbpHATjPkec7E82kEmo.html).) Probably worth looking at.

Flickerdart
2010-01-23, 08:56 PM
Awaken loop? Somehow getting near-infinite mental stats with Awaken Animal?
Arbitrarily large numbers of CHA and HD. INT won't go above 18 without Intensifying or Maximized Empowering the spell.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-23, 10:18 PM
Arbitrarily large numbers of CHA and HD. INT won't go above 18 without Intensifying or Maximized Empowering the spell.

How is the "bonuses from the same source" clause bypassed?

Flickerdart
2010-01-23, 11:31 PM
How is the "bonuses from the same source" clause bypassed?
Because the bonuses aren't. It says "gets", not "gains a bonus of". Additionally, n HD means that you can increase ability scores by n/4 total.