WBL Idea: Dragons

[Sinfire Titan]

And then there will be repercussions for the ones who do, including the PCs who did so. If the PCs are breaking your game, then either adjust to their level or bring them to your own. Besides, who says everyone will do it? The DM. The other adventurers in the world are all under the DM's control unless specified by the DM. Hell, they don't even need to obey any of the rules until the PCs come into a combat scenario with them.
You don't make any sense at all.

If you can turn a big pile of gold into a +2 sword (which you clearly CAN, given the fact that wealth by level exists), the obvious question is why isn't everyone doing it? If they are, that means your world doesn't have any gilded thrones or castles. If they aren't, then your world doesn't make any sense whatsoever because anyone whose life depends on having a +2 sword is going to be turning all the gold they can into +2 swords.


Ok, let's say that everyone is doing just that. I'd like to point out that there's an Elemental Plane with infinite amounts of gold veins just waiting to be tapped.

So why doesn't everyone go there and drill the plane for everything it's worth? Common economics. All of a sudden, gold becomes worthless and you need an entirely new system to track wealth. +2 Longswords are priced in live Dragons, not gold. Why? Because dragons are worth something thanks to their innate magical abilities. If it has a burrow speed, or can breath acid, it's worth considerably more than any other dragon because it can mine the gold faster.

But now gold is worthless, so there's no point in mining it.


Let's make this a reality. How the hell would you run a game where Dragons are the only form of currency accepted?

[Temotei]

Let's make this a reality. How the hell would you run a game where Dragons are the only form of currency accepted?

There would have to be more low-level dragon monsters like pseudodragons and wyrmling versions of dragons.

Homebrew dragons away!

[Darius Rae]

Ill trade you two half dragons for a full dragon...

[Temotei]

Ill trade you two half dragons for a full dragon...

No way man! My dragon is a CR 26 ancient gold dragon! You'll need to make a better offer. How about six half-dragons?

[Zaydos]

This is an awesome idea.

So the real question is what CR dragon is worth the same as a +2 sword? Perhaps +2 CR results in a doubling of price (except CR 1 is worth 2 CR 1/2 and CR 2 is worth 2 CR 1).

[Ozymandias9]

Let's make this a reality. How the hell would you run a game where Dragons are the only form of currency accepted?

On the quote that formed the initial premise: the issue spawns from the fact that you are trying to approach the problem using modern economic constructs, which are designed with a couple of specific truths in mind:
1) Limited Land (& natural resources)
2) Sufficient market size to overcome relevant market barriers through investment

The second one's the kicker. For most Tippy-esque ideas to function, you need an economy large and liquid enough to absorb a fairly large amount of goods. That simply doesn't function with medieval-esque population levels.

Now, how you can justify medieval-esque population levels in the presence of clerics and adepts is another matter. But if you do have them, you're far better taking your lead from mercantilism than Keynesianism or Monetarism.

[Sinfire Titan]

On the quote that formed the initial premise: the issue spawns from the fact that you are trying to approach the problem using modern economic constructs, which are designed with a couple of specific truths in mind:
1) Limited Land (& natural resources)
2) Sufficient market size to overcome relevant market barriers through investment

The second one's the kicker. For most Tippy-esque ideas to function, you need an economy large and liquid enough to absorb a fairly large amount of goods. That simply doesn't function with medieval-esque population levels.

Now, how you can justify medieval-esque population levels in the presence of clerics and adepts is another matter. But if you do have them, you're far better taking your lead from mercantilism than Keynesianism or Monetarism.

As useful as this is, you're better off telling it to him than to me. I posted this not to resolve the issue, but because I want to do this (dragons as cash) for a campaign.


Because, seriously, what can't a dragon do?


If you'd like, I can link you to the thread that spawned this.

[jiriku]

Well, it's reasonable. After all, in many societies, a man's worth is measured in the number of horses, cattle, sheep, or goats that he owns. Why not dragons?

First of all, pseudodragons are going to be your copper piece. Even petty nobles will have large chicken coops full of them, and teams of commoners paid to groom them, flatter them, and feed them treats daily so they don't become disgruntled and try to escape.

Yeomen might be paid in hours of dragon-labor. For example, work for a month in the lord's fields, and he'll send a young adult red dragon down to your farmstead for a day to do the heavy-lifting for a barn-raising, roast and smoke some hogs that you want to set aside for the winter, and dig an irrigation ditch for you.

If everyone of means owns a dragon of large size or larger, riding dragons will become a status symbol, like luxury cars. Of course, a draconic mount requires a lot more upkeep than a Mercedes, so there's going to be a lot more business in raising herd animals to feed the dragons, and feed crops to support the herd animals.

For that matter, can't bronze dragons subsist off morning dew? They'd probably be a very large unit of wealth, since there's no massive food cost involved in supporting them.

[tyckspoon]

For that matter, can't bronze dragons subsist off morning dew? They'd probably be a very large unit of wealth, since there's no massive food cost involved in supporting them.

All dragons can subsist on pretty much anything. Dietary preferences are just that- matters of what the particular dragon *likes* to consume. May or may not matter depending on how big you let your dragons get and what measures you can apply to control them.

[rainbowjo]

Anyone read A Song of Ice and Fire?


Remember what happened when Daenerys used one of her Dragon as currency?

Yeah, thats how it would work.

[mostlyharmful]

This isn't actually unworkable. In a world of magic then 'mana' or whatever that makes it run or run faster/better/stronger will have value.

A live dragon's a little hard to swallow as a unit of currency but a chunk of dragon if it is mystically charged isn't. Say you can replace gp or xp costs in casting or crafting with dragon blood, teeth, bones, scales, whatever.... a standin for diamond dust and gold that has set biological limits and the more rarified stuff is kept rare by means of being defended by big honking dragons.

Plus you get an easy way for Great Wyrms to have accumulated huge hoards (just selling shed scales), and they even get those hoards now (since gold is rare again because it's only use is being pretty)

[Jothki]

Won't the dragons just cut out the middleman and sleep on a smaller pile of shed scales?

[Fizban]

I'd say first you're gonna want to bust out your splatbooks. MM... II? has Felldrakes, which are actually just small, flightless, low HD dragons. While Pseudodragons are smaller, they're also poisonous and can fly, so the Felldrakes are more likely to be the lowest form of currency. Then you've got your Dragonnels and Drakkensteeds, or "dragon horses", which are also fairly low HD and would go in the middle. Pseudodragons and Wyrmling sized dragons (I'd advise getting rid of actual True Dragon age categories, or you'll have some pissed off big guys later on, just use them for different sizes) would be more expensive since they have more nifty powers.

This setting would not be friendly to actual DRAGON dragons, so no dragons sleeping on hordes. That's just gonna get ugly. Much better if you drop all their int scores to 2 so they can be livestock instead of slaves, and then it's just a fantastical world with dragons everywhere.

[Darrin]

My head is currently full of mucus, but here's an idea:

Dragons have high-level spellcasting ability. Dragons can be taken as familiars by high-level spellcasters (Dragon Familiar feat). Now add the Token Familiar feat (Dragon Magazine #???). Voila, dragon token that fits in your pocket.

Another idea: epic spell polymorphs all dragons in the world into gold coins or some other portable trade item. There's a finite number, and the nations of the world quickly scramble to nab them all up and put them in their kingdom treasury, because they're now effectively nukes/ICBMs... cast dispel magic (along with a geas or some other compulsion thingy) and blam, you got an instant flying mobile weapons platform that can take out armies.

Finding or stealing even one dragon token can turn the tide of a battle, put a nation on the map, etc. Giving a token as a wedding dowry or to settle kingdom-level or continent-level disputes becomes a common part of international diplomacy. A nation's military and economic might is directly proportional to how many dragon tokens they have in their treasury.

Casting an area-effect dispel magic inside of the aforementioned treasury becomes an extremely, extremely bad idea.

Lots of campaign ideas spring out of that. Young wormling accidentally gets loose, PCs hired to track it down. Local two-bit noble hears about an unclaimed dragon token inside a dungeon, hires the PCs to go grab it for him. PCs are escorting a princess and her dowry for an arranged marriage, tokens get lost/stolen/replaced with fakes, international war threatening to erupt. Someone hears a rumor about a nest of dragons over in that continent that's just off the edge of the map that are immune to polymorph. A group of gold dragons disguised as humans hires the PCs to raid the kingdom treasury and "free" their oppressed brethren.

[bosssmiley]

Let's make this a reality. How the hell would you run a game where Dragons are the only form of currency accepted?

The Tome Series wish economy already explores the implications of the "your worthless yellow metal is no good here" idea.

Although, if you read Pratchett's "Making Money" the idea of a dragon-backed fiat currency ("The Full Faith and Credit of Ragadorax the Puissant", or whatever) has potential.

Dave 'Sham' Bowman goes in completely the opposite direction (http://shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2010/01/gold-lifeblood-of-underworld.html) and suggests that, due to alchemical reasons, gold really is a source of personal power in and of itself. Having a bigger hoard gives you more mojo.

[Thrawn183]

I was also going with the dragon parts assumption. Different parts of a dragon have differing amounts of magical power. Scales are like copper pieces all the way up to the heart which would be more like a platinum piece (though the conversion ratios might be off a bit)

And then you can go to a paper currency, where you essentially have bank notes. A currency where there are X number of dragon hearts in a vault somewhere to sustain the value of the currency. Like a gold backed currency, just dragon backed instead.

[Starshade]

would not other things too be of great value in such an economy? Enslaved Rakshasa's trained to dance in circuses, slave beholders trained as miners, Pit fiends and Solars trained as butlers? :smallbiggrin:

[Lapak]

On reading the thread title, what popped into my head was something entirely different: a world in which dragons have hoarded ALL the liquid wealth. Gold, gems, silver, the lot. The rest of the world functions on a barter system using non-dragon-attractive goods like iron, wool and grain.

When the PCs want to gain actual treasure, they must go fight a dragon to get it. No one bothers to track XP at all; finding and fighting a level-appropriate dragon is how heroes are made, and a (successful) fight against one advances you one level and gives you a WBL-equivalent in treasure all in one haul. The campaign between dragons can be whatever, but locating and defeating them is what advances the party in power.

[ShippoWildheart]

Does this mean forcing dragons to mate with others (or at least being a very active dragon breeder) count as the equivalent of "pumping money" into the economy?

Wizard A: I'd like to buy that Belt of Magnificence +10 and 1 of each Tome of +5 whatever, and 1 of each Manual of +5 whatever for 5 Wyrmling Prismatic dragons please

Wizard Shopkeeper: I'm sorry good sir, but something has been pumping fresh Wrymling Prismatic dragons into the economic system. Your Wyrmlings are no good here. We'd require 10 Adult Prismatic dragons now in order to match the gross inflation

Wizard A: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Gamerlord]

There would be a metric ton of breeding. People would constantly trade dragons and they would be a sign of social status.

[Tiki Snakes]

You know, at first I rolled my eyes at all this, but by the end of the thread I have been won around.

This really does seem like a fun and possibly workable (if deliberately confusing) system for a campaing. If it goes ahead, journals plz.

[Artanis]

Does this remind anybody else of Diablo II back in the pre-expansion days when it used SoJs and PSkulls as currency?

[ShippoWildheart]

Does this remind anybody else of Diablo II back in the pre-expansion days when it used SoJs and PSkulls as currency?

I'd say moreso. At least you needed to farm that stuff, and can take a while no matter how strong you are or how much Magic Find you have. The most cheesy Wizards though can essentially make more dragons by sending them to a Genesis plane. He/she can make a sandwich and thanks to the time-sped plane there can easily be Great Wyrms available for use in trading by the time he/she is done eating.

[tyckspoon]

I'd say moreso. At least you needed to farm that stuff, and can take a while no matter how strong you are or how much Magic Find you have. The most cheesy Wizards though can essentially make more dragons by sending them to a Genesis plane. He/she can make a sandwich and thanks to the time-sped plane there can easily be Great Wyrms available for use in trading by the time he/she is done eating.

Not all that different, I think; Stones of Jordan became a currency because of item-duping. You found one and then made a thousand of it.

[ShippoWildheart]

Not all that different, I think; Stones of Jordan became a currency because of item-duping. You found one and then made a thousand of it.

Duping though is the equivalent of downright munckin-ism; it's the equivalent of the Wizard not following the rules. A Wizard doing what they're doing isn't breaking the rules; merely taking full advantage of what they are capable of. Not to mention getting caught duping will get you banned (rocks fall, the Wizard dies). The Wizard can't get "banned" for abusing spells; merely frowned down upon by his peers for discovering a loophole first.

[Flickerdart]

On reading the thread title, what popped into my head was something entirely different: a world in which dragons have hoarded ALL the liquid wealth. Gold, gems, silver, the lot. The rest of the world functions on a barter system using non-dragon-attractive goods like iron, wool and grain.

When the PCs want to gain actual treasure, they must go fight a dragon to get it. No one bothers to track XP at all; finding and fighting a level-appropriate dragon is how heroes are made, and a (successful) fight against one advances you one level and gives you a WBL-equivalent in treasure all in one haul. The campaign between dragons can be whatever, but locating and defeating them is what advances the party in power.
I like this. Sir, you gain a +1 Internet.

[nekomata2]

I think AD&D gave you like 500 GPs per HD of the dragon if you managed to capture one alive, but IIRC, non-lethal damage was much harder. So just assign a value per HD of the Dragon.

[mostlyharmful]

Won't the dragons just cut out the middleman and sleep on a smaller pile of shed scales?

But no shinies...:smallfrown:

[Zaq]

The only concern I have is the fact that as things stand now, dragons don't really want to be used as currency, and they generally have the oomph to make sure that most people can't just lead them to market on a rope and offer them to some shady neogi in exchange for new toys.

However, if we remove the ability of dragons to fight back, we remove what made them valuable at the start of this thought experiment: their power.

We either have to make the dragons not smart (as someone said, giving them 2 INT would make them basically livestock) or make them genuinely want to be used as money.

My suggestion for the latter option? Pokéballs. They already automatically turn intelligent, powerful, and ruthless creatures into your very bestest friends who are willing to fight to the death for your amusement, so I don't see why they wouldn't work just as well on dragons.

[thegurullamen]

We either have to make the dragons not smart (as someone said, giving them 2 INT would make them basically livestock) or make them genuinely want to be used as money.

My suggestion for the latter option?

Xorvintaal or whatever that massive chess game is called.

Having a continent's worth of dragons ingratiating themselves to the lower species as a means to every end ala currency is a great way to accomplish some of the more Machiavellian goals of the game without breaking any rules. As long as the dragons involved stick to the more benign or antipathetic/downright odd goals (like, say, relocating the humans they "own" to a better locale within a 24 hour window or nudging a group of farmers towards developing major advances in agricultural science through soil and produce manipulation), they can continue the charade for centuries and actually warp the races' cultures around their presence. (Then comes conquering, but only much, much later when benevolence gets boring.)

Unnecessary Xanatosing and Chessmastering. Is there anything they can't improve?

[Sinfire Titan]

My suggestion for the latter option? Pokéballs. They already automatically turn intelligent, powerful, and ruthless creatures into your very bestest friends who are willing to fight to the death for your amusement, so I don't see why they wouldn't work just as well on dragons.

I was thinking something similar myself. Then I found something while looking through the SRD:


The Orbs of Dragonkind
Each of these fabled orbs contains the essence and personality of an ancient dragon of a different variety (one for each of the major ten different chromatic and metallic dragons). The bearer of an Orb can dominate dragons of its particular variety within 500 feet (as dominate monster), the dragon being forced to make a DC 25 Will save to resist. (Spell resistance is not useful against this effect.) Each Orb of Dragonkind bestows upon the wielder the AC and saving throw bonuses of the dragon within. These values replace whatever values the character would otherwise have, whether they are better or worse. These values cannot be modified by any means short of ridding the character of the Orb. A character possessing an Orb of Dragonkind is immune to the breath weapon—but only the breath weapon—of the dragon variety keyed to the Orb. Finally, a character possessing an Orb can herself use the breath weapon of the dragon in the Orb three times per day.

All Orbs of Dragonkind can be used to communicate verbally and visually with the possessors of the other Orbs. The owner of an Orb knows whether there are dragons within 10 miles at all times. For dragons of the Orb’s particular variety, the range is 100 miles. If within 1 mile of a dragon of the Orb’s variety, the wielder can determine the exact location and age of the creature. The bearer of one of these Orbs earns the enmity forever of all dragonkind for profiting by the enslavement of one of their kin, even if she later loses the item.

Each Orb also has an individual power that can be invoked once per round at 10th caster level.

Black Dragon Orb: Fly (Will DC 17 negates).
Blue Dragon Orb: Haste (Fortitude DC 17 negates).
Brass Dragon Orb: Teleport (Will DC 19 negates).
Bronze Dragon Orb: Scrying (Will DC 18 negates).
Copper Dragon Orb: Suggestion (Will DC 17 negates).
Gold Dragon Orb: The owner of the gold Orb can call upon any power possessed by one of the other Orbs—including the dominate and breath weapon abilities but not AC, save bonuses, or breath weapon immunity—but can only use each individual power once per day. She can use dominate on any other possessor of an Orb within 1 mile (Will DC 23 negates).
Green Dragon Orb: Spectral hand.
Red Dragon Orb: Wall of fire.
Silver Dragon Orb: Cure critical wounds (Will DC 18 half).
White Dragon Orb: Protection from energy (cold) (Fortitude DC 17 negates).

Why compromise the Dragon's Int score when you can simply dominate them? You just need a good Debuffer build for the larger ones, along with plenty of Dispel Magic. 1/round Auto-Dominate is fairly decent.