Ok, I feel guilty about this...

[Ashiel]

OK. I needed to get this off my chest. I've created a character in a friend of mine's game. This character is a binder / conjurer / tainted sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm#taintedSorcerer), and I've pretty much finished the character for the game. However, upon reviewing the character (I've never played one of these before, or had someone ask to play one in my games), I can't help but notice they're insanely powerful.

They acquire a taint score. Literally every spell I cast will come with a save vs 1 point of taint. My character uses her taint score to determine her bonus spells (10 + taint score), and her save DCs are 10 + taint score + spell level. Now, she takes a wisdom penalty equal to 1/2 her taint score.

Point is, I've already determined by level 10 I could easily have a taint score of 40 with some room to spare before bottoming out in wisdom. I'm going to have an effective intelligence of 50 (for bonus spells) and a save DC of 50 + spell level, by 10th level.

On top of this, I can take con damage when casting / preparing spells with metamagic feats to ignore the level increase (I still have to be capable of casting the level of spell it would have required though). My character heals 1 point of ability damage each round to all ability scores.

I'm going to intentionally try not to break this since I've already got the character written up and ok'd into the game, but I ask you...is there hope, or am I going to gamer hell? :smalleek:

[Eldariel]

Just rewrite it; Taint-based casting will break the game. 'cause you might just end up accumulating Taint accidentally. And it's easy to reach taint in mid-200s while alive, with sufficient stats. It also makes you act insane, sorta. So...just rewrite at least the tainted casting-part.

Maybe give an effective +1 bonus to your casting stat for every 10 Taint you have or whatever, but as written, Tainted casting is completely busted. Also, you should rewrite the "Blood Casting" 'cause being able to cast spells with ANY material components with just a bit of damage is broken, especially since the damage doesn't scale beyond 750gp-costs and becomes completely trivial midway through.


Tainted Anything tends to be horribly broken as written and not intended for PC-use to boot (since Taint tends to **** PCs up), so act accordingly.

[PhoenixRivers]

Agreed. Your character isn't the most broken example of taintcasting (You'd also need Subverted Psion for that), but it's sufficiently bad that it will destroy a campaign.

Think very carefully before introducing this into your friend's game.

[magic9mushroom]

OK. I needed to get this off my chest. I've created a character in a friend of mine's game. This character is a binder / conjurer / tainted sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm#taintedSorcerer), and I've pretty much finished the character for the game. However, upon reviewing the character (I've never played one of these before, or had someone ask to play one in my games), I can't help but notice they're insanely powerful.

They acquire a taint score. Literally every spell I cast will come with a save vs 1 point of taint. My character uses her taint score to determine her bonus spells (10 + taint score), and her save DCs are 10 + taint score + spell level. Now, she takes a wisdom penalty equal to 1/2 her taint score.

Point is, I've already determined by level 10 I could easily have a taint score of 40 with some room to spare before bottoming out in wisdom. I'm going to have an effective intelligence of 50 (for bonus spells) and a save DC of 50 + spell level, by 10th level.

On top of this, I can take con damage when casting / preparing spells with metamagic feats to ignore the level increase (I still have to be capable of casting the level of spell it would have required though). My character heals 1 point of ability damage each round to all ability scores.

I'm going to intentionally try not to break this since I've already got the character written up and ok'd into the game, but I ask you...is there hope, or am I going to gamer hell? :smalleek:

Oh, it gets better. The class was rewritten in Heroes of Horror as the Tainted Scholar. Taint under the HoH mechanics doesn't give a penalty to stats, and has a maximum of 3.5 times the stat in question (Con for corruption (physical taint) and Wis for depravity (mental taint)). They did partially fix the saves, as they're 10 + half Corruption + spell level (although your Corruption will be higher, cancelling most of the decrease), but the bonus spells got even worse, as they're off Depravity + 10, allowing you to get an effective Int of 120 (!). In addition to this, the Tainted Scholar actually gets other class features (bardic knowledge equivalent checks, that add your ENTIRE DEPRAVITY SCORE on a "forbidden" subject, free Contact Other Plane at later levels, and a sort-of-free Limited Wish 1/day, as well as a few "secrets", one of which (Clarity of True Madness) allows you to add your (probably over 100) Depravity score to a Will save or Wis-based check 1/day, and a similar one (Wholesome Corruption) for Corruption to a Fort save or Concentration check 1/day).

Yeah. This class makes Incantatrix look weak.

[term1nally s1ck]

Tainted scholar is quite simply one of the most broken PrCs in the game, and there's little you can do to avoid that.

Beholder Mage, and Ilithid Savant are the other two, and they're followed by the Unholy Trinity (Dweomerkeeper, Planar Shepherd, Incantrix), who while broken, require effort to make them broken, whereas the worst 3 don't really need any effort at all.

EDIT: Just saw Tainted Sorc. That's not as bad.

[magic9mushroom]

Tainted scholar is quite simply one of the most broken PrCs in the game, and there's little you can do to avoid that.

Beholder Mage, and Ilithid Savant are the other two, and they're followed by the Unholy Trinity (Dweomerkeeper, Planar Shepherd, Incantrix), who while broken, require effort to make them broken, whereas the worst 3 don't really need any effort at all.

EDIT: Just saw Tainted Sorc. That's not as bad.

Simple advice for DMs wanting to utterly slaughter a party:

Beholder with Beholder Mage 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Tainted Scholar 1.

CR 24, true, but insanely powerful for that. In one round, it can cast one Sor/Wiz spell of each level as a free action (with unbeatable saves), cast one Cleric spell of any level as a standard action (with, again, unbeatable saves), and one quickened Cleric spell of any level as a swift action - and it's still got a move action.

It can repeat this for over a dozen rounds before it runs out of spells.

[Darrin]

I'm going to intentionally try not to break this since I've already got the character written up and ok'd into the game, but I ask you...is there hope, or am I going to gamer hell? :smalleek:

I'd take the DM aside and pitch it to him this way: "Let me know if you're interested in this... I'd like to try something different with this character. Somewhere after level 10ish, she's going to go all Dark Phoenix on the PCs and implode in an evilgasm of self-destructive mushroom clouds. I'd like to start her out working as a plant/ringer/double agent for the BBEG, betrays the PCs, then maybe has a last-second change of heart and sacrifices herself to save the party. Could you help me pull this off?"

Most DMs will jump at the chance to have one of the PCs secretly working for the BBEG, so long as you make it clear that the character is terminal and the game-breaking stuff at least has the pretense of serving his plot. But you need a fairly experienced DM, and some good players who like a more dramatic game and are adult enough to avoid the usual inter-party grudgefests that devolve into a bloodbath.

On the other hand, if your character is still standing after that bloodbath, you win D&D!

[term1nally s1ck]

And the Ilithid would probably already have stolen most of those abilities from other characters anyway. IMO it's Ilithid Savant, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar, in order of brokenness. Because the Ilithid can do ANYTHING HE WANTS.

[Fizban]

I'd go with an Anima Mage instead. Let's you keep the binder, can be plenty depraved if you want, and while powerful it's not quite OMGZORZ broken.

[magic9mushroom]

And the Ilithid would probably already have stolen most of those abilities from other characters anyway. IMO it's Ilithid Savant, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar, in order of brokenness. Because the Ilithid can do ANYTHING HE WANTS.

The Illithid Savant can't actually steal the Beholder Mage's awesomeness because he's not a Beholder and therefore doesn't have eyestalks.

Also, the wording of stealing spellcasting is rather vague. According to the most literal interpretation he can only cast 1 spell of each level.

[PhoenixRivers]

Simple advice for DMs wanting to utterly slaughter a party:

Beholder with Beholder Mage 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Tainted Scholar 1.

CR 24, true, but insanely powerful for that. In one round, it can cast one Sor/Wiz spell of each level as a free action (with unbeatable saves), cast one Cleric spell of any level as a standard action (with, again, unbeatable saves), and one quickened Cleric spell of any level as a swift action - and it's still got a move action.

It can repeat this for over a dozen rounds before it runs out of spells.

You need Ur Priest 2 to qualify for MT.

[Omegonthesane]

You need Ur Priest 2 to qualify for MT.
Also, IIRC the tainted save bonus won't apply to your Ur-Priest spells.

Of course, if the taint rules weren't borked, I'd want to play a tainted sorcerer for the fluff if nothing else.

[magic9mushroom]

You need Ur Priest 2 to qualify for MT.

Not with cheese. Versatile Spellcaster + Alternative Source Spell would seem to work.


Also, IIRC the tainted save bonus won't apply to your Ur-Priest spells.

Of course, if the taint rules weren't borked, I'd want to play a tainted sorcerer for the fluff if nothing else.

Yes it will. Tainted Spellcasting applies to all your spells by RAW. Making it a really easy way out of MAD, I might add.

[term1nally s1ck]

The Illithid Savant can't actually steal the Beholder Mage's awesomeness because he's not a Beholder and therefore doesn't have eyestalks.

Also, the wording of stealing spellcasting is rather vague. According to the most literal interpretation he can only cast 1 spell of each level.

Yeah, but he already has a monstrous number of swift actions, can teleport as a swift action at will, and make a full attack each time he does...plus all the craziness available in any non-casting class ever. Combined.

[magic9mushroom]

Yeah, but he already has a monstrous number of swift actions, can teleport as a swift action at will, and make a full attack each time he does...plus all the craziness available in any non-casting class ever. Combined.

Please explain, I'm not familiar with the tricks.

[term1nally s1ck]

I can't recall exactly which classes have those abilities, but I have an old build lying around which is based of a class feature that grants a full attack whenever you use a spell/SLA with the [teleport] descriptor to teleport next to an opponent, and then a way to teleport as a swift, move, and standard action (and I found a couple of 1/round free action teleports, but couldn't fit them in.)

The swift actions are based on the Ruby Knight Vindicator. 7th level ability, sacrifice a turn undead attempt to gain a swift action. Nightsticks/stack turn/rebuke undead give you a ridiculous number of swift actions, and all you need to do from there is find a use for swift actions.

[magic9mushroom]

I can't recall exactly which classes have those abilities, but I have an old build lying around which is based of a class feature that grants a full attack whenever you use a spell/SLA with the [teleport] descriptor to teleport next to an opponent, and then a way to teleport as a swift, move, and standard action (and I found a couple of 1/round free action teleports, but couldn't fit them in.)

The swift actions are based on the Ruby Knight Vindicator. 7th level ability, sacrifice a turn undead attempt to gain a swift action. Nightsticks/stack turn/rebuke undead give you a ridiculous number of swift actions, and all you need to do from there is find a use for swift actions.

I see...

Let's just say both are completely hax and leave it there, shall we?

Tainted Scholar would still come out as the most broken that a PC could actually take, though.

[term1nally s1ck]

There are a lot of ways to become a Beholder.....:smallbiggrin:

Tainted scholar is most definitely the most broken you can be by accident, I'll give you that, anything worse needs you to be trying to break D&D. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Ur-Priest 2 also means you can DMM all crap if didn't bother figuring out any other means of persisting stuff. Beholder Mage 1/Tainted Scholar 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 seems nice.

[magic9mushroom]

Ur-Priest 2 also means you can DMM all crap if didn't bother figuring out any other means of persisting stuff. Beholder Mage 1/Tainted Scholar 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 seems nice.

The last level of Mystic Theurge isn't all that useful, I'll note.

@term1nally s1ck: How, besides Polymorph Any Object which is questionable due to Permanent rather than Instantaneous duration?

[term1nally s1ck]

PAO is good enough, tbh, especially since you can PAO yourself into a Beholder while already a Beholder, and they stack, giving near-immunity to dispels. Just make sure you grab immunity to disjunction and antimagic field (there's a weapon/armor enchantment that grants immunity to a specific spell. Or a ring of counterspells)

[magic9mushroom]

PAO is good enough, tbh, especially since you can PAO yourself into a Beholder while already a Beholder, and they stack, giving near-immunity to dispels. Just make sure you grab immunity to disjunction and antimagic field (there's a weapon/armor enchantment that grants immunity to a specific spell. Or a ring of counterspells)

I'm not entirely sure PAO counts for "Race:" entries in PrCs though. You could see it as a [human/elf/gnome/whatever] shapeshifted into a beholder, not a real beholder.

Also, ring of counterspells won't stop an AMF. And two PAOs won't help much against a Targeted Dispel.

[Eldariel]

Hm, Factotum 8/Beholder Mage 1/Tainted Scholar 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 could be fun. Or, if someone claims that doesn't work, Factotum 8/Tainted Scholar 1/Ur-Priest 2/Beholder Mage 1/Mystic Theurge 8. A dozen standard actions on top of all the other fun stuff.

[magic9mushroom]

Hm, Factotum 8/Beholder Mage 1/Tainted Scholar 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 could be fun. Or, if someone claims that doesn't work, Factotum 8/Tainted Scholar 1/Ur-Priest 2/Beholder Mage 1/Mystic Theurge 8. A dozen standard actions on top of all the other fun stuff.

How are you qualifying for Beholder Mage?

[Eldariel]

How are you qualifying for Beholder Mage?

The Method; PAO (the crux is that it changes your type so it should work just fine).

[Ryuuk]

I'd go with an Anima Mage instead. Let's you keep the binder, can be plenty depraved if you want, and while powerful it's not quite OMGZORZ broken.

Agreed, you'll go from insane DCs, endless spells and completely free metamagic to an extra spell or two and an occasional reduction to metamagic. Go with this for everyone's sake.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you switch to HoH's tainted scholar, it's not quite as broken. You'll still get nightmarish save DC's, but they'll only be about half as crazy as what you'd get as a tainted sorcerer. Realize also, that playing a tainted X makes you extraordinarily vulnerable to attacks targeting your wisdom. At effective wis 0 your character becomes catatonic. One unexpected encounter with a couple of allips and you're toast. Nevermind what you're dooing to your will save modifier.

[magic9mushroom]

The Method; PAO (the crux is that it changes your type so it should work just fine).

Barring the fact that it's shenanananananananigans, how are you getting PAO at level 8?


If you switch to HoH's tainted scholar, it's not quite as broken. You'll still get nightmarish save DC's, but they'll only be about half as crazy as what you'd get as a tainted sorcerer. Realize also, that playing a tainted X makes you extraordinarily vulnerable to attacks targeting your wisdom. At effective wis 0 your character becomes catatonic. One unexpected encounter with a couple of allips and you're toast. Nevermind what you're dooing to your will save modifier.

Tainted Scholar is far MORE broken because your taint maximums are far higher and don't penalise your abilities. See my first post in this thread.

Edit: Oh, and you also get other class features besides tainted spellcasting.

[Eldariel]

Barring the fact that it's shenanananananananigans, how are you getting PAO at level 8?

You has UMD and Scroll of PAO is v. cheap.

[magic9mushroom]

You has UMD and Scroll of PAO is v. cheap.

I sees. Why wait for level 8 then? Or is it not THAT cheap?

Also, I just found out that Tainted Scholar is accessible at level 4 via Primary Contact. Yuck.

[Eldariel]

I sees. Why wait for level 8 then? Or is it not THAT cheap?

'cause Factotum 8 for infinite Standard Actions.

[magic9mushroom]

'cause Factotum 8 for infinite Standard Actions.

I don't think I have whatever book Factotum is in.

[Eldariel]

I don't think I have whatever book Factotum is in.

Dungeonscape.

[term1nally s1ck]

Dear god...I think that's the best nova-ing class I've seen, with the possible exception of the Windicator....And tainted scholar means that if you have enough taint, you don't even burn all your spells to do it. (Just most of them)

[PhoenixRivers]

Dear god...I think that's the best nova-ing class I've seen, with the possible exception of the Windicator....And tainted scholar means that if you have enough taint, you don't even burn all your spells to do it. (Just most of them)

If you actually go cerebremancer with Subverted Psion, you can be totally safe from taint negatives too.

[Draz74]

Dear god...I think that's the best nova-ing class I've seen, with the possible exception of the Windicator

The Factotum? Or the whole package, Beholder Mage included?

Because Factotum really isn't much of a nova-ing class, unless you Gestalt it and/or allow (and abuse) the Font of Inspiration feat.

[Sinfire Titan]

Dear god...I think that's the best nova-ing class I've seen, with the possible exception of the Windicator....And tainted scholar means that if you have enough taint, you don't even burn all your spells to do it. (Just most of them)

Chuck isn't a nova anymore. CC got errata'ed. He's still a Death Engine, but no longer holds the damage record.

[faceroll]

And the Ilithid would probably already have stolen most of those abilities from other characters anyway. IMO it's Ilithid Savant, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar, in order of brokenness. Because the Ilithid can do ANYTHING HE WANTS.

The Illithid Savant is too dependent on DM whimsy. If you're in an undead only campaign, you've got some psionics, a mess of ECL, and a bunch of essentially NPC levels. Sure, if the DM let's you gate in Phanes and then has the Phanes let you eat their brains, then theoretically, the Savant is going to get ridiculous. In actual play, though, you're going to have a rough time of it, since you're not only going to be in a high level game, but you're going to have stunted abilities until you get the chance to eat a wizard's brain. Good luck capturing a high level wizard.

Tainted casting just breaks itself, within its own rule set. It's ridiculous.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm not entirely sure PAO counts for "Race:" entries in PrCs though. You could see it as a [human/elf/gnome/whatever] shapeshifted into a beholder, not a real beholder.

Also, ring of counterspells won't stop an AMF. And two PAOs won't help much against a Targeted Dispel.

More importantly, it doesn't grant you the eyestalks, which are required to be sacrificed to gain levels in beholder mage.

Plus, yknow, even if it did work, losing all your power to a single dispel kinda sucks.

[Lord of Syntax]

More importantly, it doesn't grant you the eyestalks, which are required to be sacrificed to gain levels in beholder mage.

Plus, yknow, even if it did work, losing all your power to a single dispel kinda sucks.

And, that is why you need to get ML 5 to take Metamorphic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) twice, which gives you eye rays and the anti-magic eye.

[faceroll]

Or take supernatural ability from savage species a couple times.