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Sintanan
2010-01-24, 08:14 AM
This is an interesting concept I came up with while talking to some friends, and the wording leaves it iffy, so I wanted the Playground's opinion on whether this should work... Besides, with the new DM being a lawyer-in-training and all, I gotta make sure my quoted information would actually have a leg to stand on... or get really good at BSing.

Now, flavor-wise, spellhoarding is a dragon psychosis found in the article Dragon Pychoses - Draconian Delusions and Dementia in Dragon #313. And while the psychoses are intended for only true dragons, I was wondering if a dragonwought kobold with the Dragon Wings feat and who has completed the draconic rite of passage would qualify:

"Spellhoarding" is a template that can be added to any true dragon with an Intelligence score at least 3 points higher than the average for its kind and age category, a caster level of 1st or higher, and the maximum ranks possible in Knowledge (arcana).


Benefit: You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits.
You should decide whether your character has undergone the draconic Rite of Passage (see page 43), a cultural ritual practiced since the days when the first dragons gave it to kobolds. Moreover, 1st-level kobolds can choose the Dragonwrought feat (see page 100), becoming a dragonwrought kobold and enjoying the benefits of being a Small dragon.


True dragons are winged, reptilelike creatures of ancient lineage.
They are known and feared for their size, physical prowess, and magical abilities. The oldest dragons are among the most powerful creatures in the world.


By RAW the kobold in question is reptilelike, has wings, from an ancient lineage as old as the dragons themselves, and is actually a dragon.
From an optimizer's standpoint, this could be iffy as the Spellhoarding "psychosis" is a CR +0, LA +0 template that grants an enhanced improved counterspelling and many other benefits focused on your 'spell hoard' created through counterspelling (instead of bouncing off, you absorb the spell and it becomes a rune on your body).

But, I mean, it's a crazy spellhoarding kobold covered in runes, in tune with his dragon heritage than most, and obsessed with ancient tomes and powerful magic. That's gotta be worth some Internets, right?


Comparing Kobolds
Both the spellhoarder and a normal kobold wizard would be 3rd level. Where the spellhoarder would have to take Dragonwrought and Dragon Wings as his two feats for 1st and 3rd levels, the kobold wizard's choices are open.
The spellhoarder gains the benefits/drawbacks of the spellhoarding template. (Attribute changes, Eschew Materials, spell-hoarding abilities
Both kobolds have completed the draconic Rite of Passage, and have a 1st-level spell-like ability.
The spellhoarder uses his Intelligence for his Rite of Passage spell-like's DC and whatnot instead of Charisma, like the kobold wizard does.

So, the spellhoarder comes out slightly ahead, with less MAD, +2 Int, counterspelling, and Eschew Materials at a cost of non-spellcasting feats for 1st and 3rd, -4 Wis, and the fact he is loopy for new spells. So, not overly overpowered.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-24, 08:28 AM
According to some Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons because of some passages in the Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon. According to common sense they're not.

Eloel
2010-01-24, 08:56 AM
Wait, there are Kobolds that do not take the Dragonwrought feat?

magic9mushroom
2010-01-24, 09:26 AM
Wait, there are Kobolds that do not take the Dragonwrought feat?

If you wanted White Dragonspawn without a self-contradictory backstory, yes. :smalltongue:

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-24, 10:01 AM
{Scrubbed}

Bayar
2010-01-24, 10:10 AM
So many Dragonwrought Kobolds threads and arguments about them being true dragons lately...

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/350px-Lolcrontrollkobolds.jpg


{Scrubbed}

They are considered Dragons. They have age categories. Please tell us why are we "RAW retarded" if we use the rules that were given to us ? And how do YOU know if it was intended or not ? Is there an eratta ? An Ask the Sage that says they should not be considered true dragons ? What backs up your claims ? You seen our evidence as to why they should be. Now show us why they should not.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-24, 10:22 AM
So many Dragonwrought Kobolds threads and arguments about them being true dragons lately...

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/350px-Lolcrontrollkobolds.jpg



They are considered Dragons. They have age categories. Please tell us why are we "RAW retarded" if we use the rules that were given to us ? And how do YOU know if it was intended or not ? Is there an eratta ? An Ask the Sage that says they should not be considered true dragons ? What backs up your claims ? You seen our evidence as to why they should be. Now show us why they should not.

I don't want a repeat of the last thread, so I'll say:

a) True Dragon is generally stated outright, so common sense
b) Kobolds don't advance in Hit Dice by their 12 age categories
c) They're based off a particular True Dragon kind (with the scale colour and all), and it would seem sorta odd to have a lesser version of a True Dragon still be a True Dragon
d) By the only reading of the Draconomicon definition of "lesser dragon" that doesn't make all non-immortal dragons (including the ones that are specifically stated to be lesser dragons) NOT lesser dragons, Dragonwrought Kobolds fit the definition of a lesser dragon.

Bayar
2010-01-24, 10:39 AM
I don't want a repeat of the last thread, so I'll say:

a) True Dragon is generally stated outright, so common sense
b) Kobolds don't advance in Hit Dice by their 12 age categories
c) They're based off a particular True Dragon kind (with the scale colour and all), and it would seem sorta odd to have a lesser version of a True Dragon still be a True Dragon
d) By the only reading of the Draconomicon definition of "lesser dragon" that doesn't make all non-immortal dragons (including the ones that are specifically stated to be lesser dragons) NOT lesser dragons, Dragonwrought Kobolds fit the definition of a lesser dragon.

a) Common sense is not a rule in D&D. In D&D you can get healed by drowning. That is not common sense but still is RAW.

b) True dragons need to advance in age categories. It is not defined as "Advancing in HD" anywhere.

c) Again, bringing common sense in a RAW discussion is not really effective. Kobolds were born from the blood of the primordial dragons. Dragonwrought kobolds are those special guys that are in link with their dragon side.

d) A dragon does not have to be immortal to be a true dragon. All dragons die of old age eventually (or become dracoliches). Plus, it is not stated what the creatures are that have the dragon type but are not lesser dragons. Half dragon kobolds qualify somewhere in a grey area between true dragons and lesser dragons.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-24, 10:50 AM
{Scrubbed}

b) True dragons need to advance in age categories. It is not defined as "Advancing in HD" anywhere.

If you define it the other logical way, then you get a problem.


c) Again, bringing common sense in a RAW discussion is not really effective. Kobolds were born from the blood of the primordial dragons. Dragonwrought kobolds are those special guys that are in link with their dragon side.

I said from the beginning of this thread that I was arguing from common sense. I merely also said that it's questionable by RAW. Don't try to shift the goalposts.


d) A dragon does not have to be immortal to be a true dragon. All dragons die of old age eventually (or become dracoliches). Plus, it is not stated what the creatures are that have the dragon type but are not lesser dragons. Half dragon kobolds qualify somewhere in a grey area between true dragons and lesser dragons.

Exactly. If you say that the "do not advance through age categories" clause in Draconomicon means the simple act of aging (which I presume you are) then no dragon is a lesser dragon unless it doesn't age, because they do have age categories. Even the ones that are specifically identified as lesser dragons. Reductio ad absurdum.

Hence, the term "advancing" in that clause must refer to another kind of advancing, and the obvious one is advancing in Hit Dice by age category like True Dragons do (which would make complete sense, since this gives the results we know to be correct ie that all the True Dragons advance in Hit Dice by age category whereas all the Lesser Dragons do not). Which defines Kobolds as Lesser Dragons.

Sintanan
2010-01-24, 06:05 PM
So, a winged dragonwrought kobold sits in a gray area. Simple enough.

But, the question remains: Would you allow a winged dragonwrought kobold to take the spellhoarding template?

JaronK
2010-01-24, 06:16 PM
Draconomicon has the definition of True Dragon in a sidebar, near the beginning of the book. So does Dragons of Kyrnn in the feats section. Read those definitions, then look at the age catagories that Kobolds have.

Your answer is right there, in black and white.

Note that the MM definition is descriptive, not an actual definition... it does not apply to the majority of dragons (there are Lung dragons without wings, most dragons are neither Chromatic nor Metallic, White Dragons are not big enough, etc).

And most Lung Dragons do not explicitly say they're true dragons, btw.

JaronK

Dyllan
2010-01-24, 06:32 PM
So, a winged dragonwrought kobold sits in a gray area. Simple enough.

But, the question remains: Would you allow a winged dragonwrought kobold to take the spellhoarding template?

Not in my campaign. The reason this argument is still going on is that the rules as written do not speak directly and unambiguously to the subject. But in my game, a Kobold, Dragonwrought or not, is not a "True Dragon."

Sintanan
2010-01-24, 06:45 PM
Sadly, I'm away from my Draconomicon at the moment, so I'll have to look up that sidebar later. Thanks for all the input on the subject.

deuxhero
2010-01-24, 06:46 PM
Isn't spell hoarding something like "Cast as a wizard, lose cleric spells, 20% chance of adding a spell used on you to spell book"?

Yes... if you take sorcerer/rainbow servant to get cleric and sorc casting to trade. Same with the other archetypes.

JaronK
2010-01-24, 06:56 PM
Sadly, I'm away from my Draconomicon at the moment, so I'll have to look up that sidebar later. Thanks for all the input on the subject.

The Draconomicon says quite clearly that True Dragons are Dragons that get more powerful with age, and Lesser Dragons are dragons that don't "advance through age catagories" (and makes it clear that only those two types exist... a Dragon cannot be neither one, nor both). Krynn says that True Dragons are any dragon with a age catagories, which fits with the Draconomoicon entry.

Dragonwrought Kobolds get more powerful with age (eventually gaining +3 to all mental stats, and getting the ability to take Epic feats when they reach "old") and obviously have age catagories (which they advance through... note the difference between "Advance through age catagories" and "Advancement: By Age"... one means you go forward through age catagories as you get older, while the other means your method of improvement is aging).

Like I said, it's pretty black and white.

As far as what I'd allow in games, that simply depends on the power level I'd like to run. In WLD, we have Dragonwrought Kobolds with Loredrake and Wyrm of War, because it's a really hard campaign and we're intentionally playing stupid. In other games, we play at a much lower power level where DKs are not permissible due to being unbalanced for the campaign.

JaronK

Sintanan
2010-01-24, 07:17 PM
Isn't spell hoarding something like "Cast as a wizard, lose cleric spells, 20% chance of adding a spell used on you to spell book"?

Yes... if you take sorcerer/rainbow servant to get cleric and sorc casting to trade. Same with the other archetypes.

Spellhoarding is swap sorcerer for wizard, spells are runes on the dragon's body, has imp counterspell, and a counterspelled spell is added to the dragon's body. Then they can burn their spellhoard to pay for costly materials and xp costs.

dougch
2010-01-25, 03:10 AM
yeah spell hoarding kobold is just cool. ide go with it.

if your dm is cool with it. then run with it.

this is a silly argument guys. just stop it.

if it is cool go for it. if your dm questions it then do somethign else.