[3.5] What I'm doing with my group

[Shadowbane]

So I'm playing DnD very regularly now with two-three players. One of the players, the one who is sporadic at best knows DnD just as well as I do. This is to say most of the splatbooks and all of the SRD are memorized.

The other two players...not so much. They're total newbies, and I'm still teaching one to roleplay. Because of the sheer difficulty when they start playing magic-users (they can spend hours writing their spell list for the day...at 2nd level!) I decided to play an all-melee game and am using a DMPC to show them how to play.

Now, so far, I'm quite proud of my DMPC. I don't have any particular campaigns, rather, a world in which I toss a couple adventure hooks out in game and let them decide which to follow. He RPs well, but is a bit of a questing knight. He never orders the PCs around, rather, he follows them because he is rather infatuated with the rogue and terrified of the fighter/arcane archer (I removed the arcane spell requirement and changed imbue arrow to instead allow him to imbue it with an energy type for damage) and what he might do. So as long as they're on a quest, he's happy. Plus, he works as a bounty hunter, so I can use him to drop plot hooks and use him as Mr. Exposition for when they come up against something they don't understand. My players actually quite love him. (His name is simply The Captain.)

Right now, they're at 10th level. The following house rules are in play:

-All melee classes do, in addition to weapon damage, +(1/2 HD damage).
-Slightly higher WBL. I'm not throwing the table out the window, but I don't really keep track too tightly either. I do know they're above the expected WBL.
-Open Lock/Disable Device are the same skill.
-The above arcane archer change.
-Detect alignment spells don't work. At all.
-They level up when I say they level up. In other words, when it is plot convenient. They love fighting so much this doesn't really make a difference.

I also set up tables for critical hits. After confirming the critical, the players roll a percentage die. The range tells me what it does to their enemy.

Their favorite seems to be "Scarlet Soup."

Am I doing things right for my newbie players? I'm used to playing with people that know the rules as well as I do, but with these, they seem to want to play DnD like they are action heroes, and this gives it to them. Is my DMPC awful?

[Temotei]

I read DMPC and I stopped and started scanning the rest of the post. It took me about five seconds to read the rest.

If it works for your players, though, do it. That's a good policy, right? :smallamused:

[Shadowbane]

I feel sort of dirty using a DMPC. If I don't though, their death rate is stunningly high. Before I used him, I came to every session with at least six premade characters each. They are that bad at this. With the DMPC, at least, the arcane archer lets him melee and the rogue finally understand how to actually use sneak attack.

[Temotei]

I feel sort of dirty using a DMPC. If I don't though, their death rate is stunningly high. Before I used him, I came to every session with at least six premade characters each. They are that bad at this. With the DMPC, at least, the arcane archer lets him melee and the rogue finally understand how to actually use sneak attack.

I'd say lower the difficulty then. Kill the DMPC somehow. Get the villain to do it. Casually. Assuming there is a villain.

Then lower the EL a bunch, test it, then adjust as you see fit. Don't make PC's die because of three billion mooks.

[arguskos]

And, again, the bias against DMPCs comes out in full force. In the very first response, even. You know, this is a really good example of when the DM can and should run a PC of his own, and to great effect: it's helping everyone have more fun.

Course, some people would say that you're doing it badwrong for having fun. Me, I say continue on the course. It's working thus far, they're learning, and everyone is having fun? No reason to remove the DMPC nor feel shame for using one. It's working, and that's what matters: the fun.

[Shadowbane]

I'd say lower the difficulty then. Kill the DMPC somehow. Get the villain to do it. Casually. Assuming there is a villain.

Then lower the EL a bunch, test it, then adjust as you see fit. Don't make PC's die because of three billion mooks.

It was an ettin, they were level 10, and there was no DM pc. They died.

It was a chimera, they were level 10, and there was no DMPC. They died.

It was three chokers, they were level 6, and there was no DMPC. They died.

The dice don't even hate them that much. They just have no idea what they're doing. Why would a character with an archer build try to melee? Why would the rogue try to go toe-to-toe with a Chuul at level ten?

My players are my friends, but they're totally inexperienced and have no idea what they're doing. If they play a melee fighter, they forget to use power attack and their damage isn't good enough. If they play a rogue, they get tangled up in melee.

At least with the DMPC they're learning.

@arguskos: Thank you. I hope to phase out the Captain eventually, but right now I can't get them on anything resembling an exciting adventure without him to toss himself heedlessly into melee.

Actually, he's my second DMPC. The first one died against a five-headed pyrohydra. So no bias. I roll in the middle of the table with him and everything, and if anything, he gets hurt the most.

[Glimbur]

Another option would be recruiting another player to play meatshield so the rogue and archer can do their stuff. This is nontrivial, since you'll have to look at not just party balance but IRL dynamics to avoid ruining what is working for you.

[Temotei]

It was an ettin, they were level 10, and there was no DM pc. They died.

It was a chimera, they were level 10, and there was no DMPC. They died.

It was three chokers, they were level 6, and there was no DMPC. They died.

The dice don't even hate them that much. They just have no idea what they're doing. Why would a character with an archer build try to melee? Why would the rogue try to go toe-to-toe with a Chuul at level ten?

My players are my friends, but they're totally inexperienced and have no idea what they're doing. If they play a melee fighter, they forget to use power attack and their damage isn't good enough. If they play a rogue, they get tangled up in melee.

Huh. That sucks.


Thank you. I hope to phase out the Captain eventually, but right now I can't get them on anything resembling an exciting adventure without him to toss himself heedlessly into melee.

Actually, he's my second DMPC. The first one died against a five-headed pyrohydra. So no bias. I roll in the middle of the table with him and everything, and if anything, he gets hurt the most.

It looks like you were just looking for our approval, rather than asking for our honest opinions. Notice I also pointed out that if it works for your group, do it...:smallconfused:

But...no skin off my bones.

[Shadowbane]

Huh. That sucks.



It looks like you were just looking for our approval, rather than asking for our honest opinions. Notice I also pointed out that if it works for your group, do it...:smallconfused:

But...no skin off my bones.

It's more like...do you guys think I'm doing the DMPC wrong? I'm a little worried that my players are just so relieved about the not-dying they're adoring him because he keeps them alive.

[Temotei]

It's more like...do you guys think I'm doing the DMPC wrong? I'm a little worried that my players are just so relieved about the not-dying they're adoring him because he keeps them alive.

It depends. Perhaps you should watch each player's style. If the melee fighter wants to do ranged, increase his/her ability to do that. Rogue wants melee? Give him/her a few extra hit points and some opportunities to gain some items raising attack. Things like that.

If the DMPC is the only thing keeping your players alive, that's probably not good, but...again, if it works...

I'd say try giving your players some extra capabilities, nudge them towards good tactics (via The Commander?), etc.

[Kylarra]

It's more like...do you guys think I'm doing the DMPC wrong?The real question is "are your players having fun?"

If yes, then the opinions of random internet people shouldn't matter. :smalltongue: Now admittedly, I also belong to that category and thus you should take the rest of this post with a grain of salt.

A few ideas for increased survivability:

-Maximize HP/level instead of rolling.
-Increase HD by one size (or give improved toughness to the barbarian... well unless you think it'd be funny to have them have D20 hp like the lightning warrior).
-Free improved toughness feat for everyone

Now more HP won't necessarily help the strategical issues, but it'll at least buffer mistakes.

-Take a session or two on basic tactics and explaining how to play, rather than a trial by fire. You don't need to grill them into perfection, but just an "I noticed that the mortality rate is rather high so..."

-Remember that CR is intended for a group of 4, a group of 2 has half the number of actions as a group of 4, and half the versatility.

-Consider playing 4e,

I realize that with the amount of investment you have in 3.X, this might not be a good suggestion or even a plausible one, but 4e tends to have more slugfest type battles, so a tactical mistake is generally recoverable. Although 4e stuff is balanced for a party of 5, so you'll have to also keep that in mind as well. Also 4e stuff, if you point them towards less situational feats, and with a small investment gets you the character builder which allows you to both build the sheets quickly, but more importantly, print power cards with pre-mathed numbers so you just roll D20 and add the listed modifier for ease of play.

[arguskos]

It's more like...do you guys think I'm doing the DMPC wrong? I'm a little worried that my players are just so relieved about the not-dying they're adoring him because he keeps them alive.
Yes and no. No, you're not doing him wrong because he's making the game better. Yes, because he's REQUIRED since your players are apparently unable to use basic logic when reading blocks of text. Solution: improve your player's abilities to use logic when making characters. Offer them free rebuilds as long as it takes for them to figure it out. Encourage their mental growth as players. It'll work... eventually. Then, the Commander can be cycled out.

[Shadowbane]

Thanks for the advice. I'll take next session for tactics, and use the HP suggestions.

And suddenly, the D20 HP does seem funny. But we won't do that. The other player who knows what he's doing is sporadically playing a barbarian. I don't dare make him too powerful.

Thanks again!

[Kylarra]

For instant results, you may want to give them Epic Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness) as a free feat. That'll keep them from being squishy. :smallwink:

[Shadowbane]

I might actually do that with the rogue, we'll see. She keeps walking into the most dangerous situations.

...That was actually a plot hook. "You climbed the wrong wall."

[Calimehter]

Like many before me, I am going to preface my reply with "If your group is having fun, you're not really doing any wrong". :)

That said, needing the "training wheels" all the way up to 10th level (and not for the first time, from what you described) would be a bit of a cause for concern.

There might be something to be said for increasing the quantity of lower-EL encounters thrown at them. Many groups would find this sort of thing boring, but having some encounters with more 'leeway' might help them learn to solve problems on their own. From the sound of things, they might still have enough of a challenge against underpowered opponents to still be having a pretty decent time, and they would be doing so "on their own" and hopefully improving (as players) faster than they otherwise would.

The slower advancement (fewer XP per encounter on average) could also work in their favor, giving them a chance to get a better feel for the rules at each level before they get new feats and abilities. I've been in campaigns with inexperienced players, and even intelligent folks can get lost in the D&D rules, terminology, and number crunching. This is *especially* true for those with little RPG experience beforehand.

[Shadowbane]

I'm writing this all down. :smalltongue: Thanks!

[Temotei]

I'm writing this all down. :smalltongue: Thanks!

If you give everyone Improved Toughness, give them Toughness as well.

So the new results are: +4/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1...etc.

When I saw Toughness combined with Improved Toughness once, I was hooked on using that. :smallcool:

[JeminiZero]

I am suddenly reminded of the various hand holding, 4th wall breaking, tutorials that computer games have at their start.



The dice don't even hate them that much. They just have no idea what they're doing. Why would a character with an archer build try to melee? Why would the rogue try to go toe-to-toe with a Chuul at level ten?

My players are my friends, but they're totally inexperienced and have no idea what they're doing. If they play a melee fighter, they forget to use power attack and their damage isn't good enough. If they play a rogue, they get tangled up in melee.


Consider giving them ToB. Simplifies their choices to picking which maneuver to execute each round. Retrain the Fighter to a Warblade/Crusader, and the Rogue to a Swordsage with Disable Device.

[Saintjebus]

I have to chime with everyone who's saying that the fun is what matters. The issue that most people have with DMPCs is that when they are put into play, they are fun only for the DM. That's not good because it decreases the fun of the players. What you have is a DMPC that increases the fun of the players. That's good. Anything that increases the fun of the group is right. That is all.

[faceroll]

It sounds like the players are really unfamiliar with how D&D works, and just need time to get accustomed to it. I say use as many redshirts as it takes until they get better at it.

DMPCs also are nice because they can fill a class role rather than have you tailor the adventure to be especially for them. You get to use a greater variety of monsters. :smallbiggrin:


It's more like...do you guys think I'm doing the DMPC wrong? I'm a little worried that my players are just so relieved about the not-dying they're adoring him because he keeps them alive.

If your players are having fun, then you're doing it right. No reason to seek validation on the internet.

[DabblerWizard]

Generally I dislike DMPCs because they can become an in-game extension of a DM's will that overshadows the PCs.

On the other hand, ShadowBane, using a DMPC as a learning tool is a good idea. I approve. :smallsmile:

On the other hand, the fact that they're level 10, and still struggling, leads me to think that they're heavily depending on your DMPC to save the day. They don't seem to be learning good combat tactics. Maybe you should talk them through a combat scenario, giving them advice as you go.

It's also possible that you leveled them up too quickly and they feel overwhelmed, and or, you're throwing monsters at them that are either too strong, or require more finesse than just hack and slash, which may be beyond your players, currently.

[Ra-Thoth]

If there's an archer and a rogue - and I am assuming quite standard builds here - the rogue has noone to flank with as the archer wants to stay out of the fight.

You can't hold it against the rogue to be in melee, nor can you hold it against the archer if he wades into melee, because maybe he did it to flank with the rogue?

2 characters do funny things to the Challenge Rating. Max HP can help there. If there are only 2 players present, I fear there has to be a DMPC. One advice though: Let the DMPC have a lot of flaws. Not "feat allowing" flaws. Just some characteristics that make him, at least in roleplay, inferiour to the PCs.

For example, let him stutter. Or forget things. Or dumb. Or cowardly. By giving him those flaws, you dont run the risk of the others feeling inferior to the DMPC.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd say lower the difficulty then. Kill the DMPC somehow. Get the villain to do it. Casually. Assuming there is a villain.

Then lower the EL a bunch, test it, then adjust as you see fit. Don't make PC's die because of three billion mooks.

This. Incidentally, this is great way to introduce the villian as the "really badass villian". It's easy for them to kind of blend together normally, so the occasional surprise move is great for building tension and/or panic.

Difficulty in 3.5 is incredibly player dependant. Ditto for pathfinder. I have one game in which a crab nearly wiped the 9 person party. In my other group, our last battle plan was "Eh, tyndmyr can sink the fleet. The rest of us will do this...". What classes you have, and how well the players know them and work together makes an ungodly difference. Tweak until deaths are rare.

For two players, max hp is a good boost, as is allowing them to pick up hirelings. Hirelings are awesome, and frequently hilarious.

Your house rules are not at all extreme...many of those, like WBL are only guidelines anyhow. Detect alignment fails in some settings, too. Eberron, for example. I wouldn't worry overmuch about the xp unless someone wants to try magic item crafting.

[Dust]

Once they get the hang of things, I also recommend 'The Captain' get killed by the villain just prior the the final few confrontations. Not because I dislike DMPCs, but because it's wonderful to see non-jaded, non-experienced players react with actual shock when npcs die, and would help make the villain fight extra memorable for their first game.

[Dingle]

The existence of your DMPC seems crucial to allowing the other players to play the roles that they want to play. I don't Think you should get rid of him unless you replace him.
classes that might work:
Melee: Fighter/Barb/Pal/Ranger/monk/cleric/druid
Summoner: wiz/sorc/druid
EDIT: Illusionist would work too.
actually, anything except bard, rogue, ranged

If you have a problem with your DMPC, you could give them a golem or zombie to play with. Mindless creatures would act exactly the same if played from either side of the scren and are not hard to play.

[Temotei]

The existence of your DMPC seems crucial to allowing the other players to play the roles that they want to play. I don't Think you should get rid of him unless you replace him.
classes that might work:
Melee: Fighter/Barb/Pal/Ranger/monk/cleric/druid
Summoner: wiz/sorc/druid

actually, anything except bard, rogue, ranged

If you have a problem with your DMPC, you could give them a golem or zombie to play with. Mindless creatures would act exactly the same if played from either side of the scren and are not hard to play.

Why wouldn't a bard work for a DMPC? Support for the players while not doing much else is a good thing, probably.

[Dingle]

bard, rogue, archer. Who is going to be able to take the hits in melee? The DMPC is there to allow the players to play the roles that they want to play, which is important to the fun. In this case, the DMPC is better than a healbot cleric because tanking can not be done by items and is more important. The problem in the game is that everyone wants to play suport charachters, leaving noone to suport.

If I wanted to play a rogue, and my friend wanted to play an archer, my options would be: get another player, get a hireling, use Factotum (to remove my dependance on flanking), ask the other player to be very stealth focused and try to use hit and run tactics.

EDIT: Temotei, by not reading the post thoroughly, you may not have noticed that the party is a rogue and an archer, which is what makes the DMPC nescessary.

EDIT2 I don't think it is a difficulty problem, it is a combat roles problem.

[pasko77]

So I'm playing DnD very regularly now with two-three players. One of the players, the one who is sporadic at best knows DnD just as well as I do. This is to say most of the splatbooks and all of the SRD are memorized.

The other two players...not so much. They're total newbies, and I'm still teaching one to roleplay. Because of the sheer difficulty when they start playing magic-users (they can spend hours writing their spell list for the day...at 2nd level!) I decided to play an all-melee game and am using a DMPC to show them how to play.

Now, so far, I'm quite proud of my DMPC. I don't have any particular campaigns, rather, a world in which I toss a couple adventure hooks out in game and let them decide which to follow. He RPs well, but is a bit of a questing knight. He never orders the PCs around, rather, he follows them because he is rather infatuated with the rogue and terrified of the fighter/arcane archer (I removed the arcane spell requirement and changed imbue arrow to instead allow him to imbue it with an energy type for damage) and what he might do. So as long as they're on a quest, he's happy. Plus, he works as a bounty hunter, so I can use him to drop plot hooks and use him as Mr. Exposition for when they come up against something they don't understand. My players actually quite love him. (His name is simply The Captain.)

Right now, they're at 10th level. The following house rules are in play:

-All melee classes do, in addition to weapon damage, +(1/2 HD damage).
-Slightly higher WBL. I'm not throwing the table out the window, but I don't really keep track too tightly either. I do know they're above the expected WBL.
-Open Lock/Disable Device are the same skill.
-The above arcane archer change.
-Detect alignment spells don't work. At all.
-They level up when I say they level up. In other words, when it is plot convenient. They love fighting so much this doesn't really make a difference.

I also set up tables for critical hits. After confirming the critical, the players roll a percentage die. The range tells me what it does to their enemy.

Their favorite seems to be "Scarlet Soup."

Am I doing things right for my newbie players? I'm used to playing with people that know the rules as well as I do, but with these, they seem to want to play DnD like they are action heroes, and this gives it to them. Is my DMPC awful?

I think you're doing a great job.
If you want a piece of advice, when you feel like ending the campaign, let the BBEG kill your DMPC. It will give more motivation to your players.

edit: i see that Dust already said that...