PDA

View Full Version : ToB v. Cleric



Exarch
2010-01-25, 12:58 AM
Hey guys. I got into an argument with a guy at my shop about whether a wizard or cleric is better at level 7+. I personally like wizards more, as they can control better but he was saying clerics can buff themselves and with the Initiate of Mystra feat, clerics win hands down. Meh, whatever. He doesn't realize Orb spells don't care about AMF or summoned creatures just plowing through him.

Anyway, we got onto ToB and he got onto how much he hated it. Got me to thinking, could a ToB character defeat a busted cleric who uses DMM and IoM feat in conjunction with Night Sticks (he doesn't realize they're a 3.0 item apparently) in an arena setting? I know of the Bloodstorm Blade busting, as well as the Jade Pheonix wizard but I'm not sure how they're actually built and if they stand a good chance. Additionally, isn't there an Arcane Swordsage or some such thing? How would he fair against a cleric who has a personalized AMF? And how does that effect his buffs?

Nate the Snake
2010-01-25, 01:34 AM
Hey guys. I got into an argument with a guy at my shop about whether a wizard or cleric is better at level 7+. I personally like wizards more, as they can control better but he was saying clerics can buff themselves and with the Initiate of Mystra feat, clerics win hands down.

The wizard is generally considered better due to having a superior spell list.


Meh, whatever. He doesn't realize Orb spells don't care about AMF or summoned creatures just plowing through him.

Antimagic Field stops summoned creatures. They disappear if they enter one and reappear when the field moves/ends.


Anyway, we got onto ToB and he got onto how much he hated it.

Why does he hate ToB? Melee can have nice things too. :smallfrown:


Got me to thinking, could a ToB character defeat a busted cleric who uses DMM and IoM feat in conjunction with Night Sticks (he doesn't realize they're a 3.0 item apparently) in an arena setting?

The ToB character loses because the cleric is a full caster.

Also, Nightsticks are 3.5 items. They're in Libris Mortis.


Additionally, isn't there an Arcane Swordsage or some such thing?

No. Arcane Swordsage does not exist. :smallyuk:


How would he fair against a cleric who has a personalized AMF?

Again, the cleric wins because he's a full caster.


And how does that effect his buffs?

If he casts the buff first, it goes away when the AMF goes up. If he casts AMF first and succeeds on the caster level check for IoM, the buff functions normally.

JaronK
2010-01-25, 01:53 AM
While I think the Wizard is generally a touch stronger than the Cleric, it's close enough to be quite arguable. Clerics have some distinct advantages... easier access to metamagic reducers with some incredible persistable spells (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Lesser Mass Vigor, and Divine Power come to mind). They can start raising armies of the dead two levels earlier, when such armies are insanely powerful. Rebuke Undead (for evil Clerics) is not to be underestimated when combined with Turn Resistance reducers. And eventually, they can cast Miracle and similar spells. Plus, they can pick domains to give them whatever seems fun (Shapechange, for example).

As far as ToB vs Clerics, a Cleric that's trying hard will easily overwhelm anything a ToB character can bring to the table. After all, they can actually just cast "I win" in the form of Miracle, summon angles or devils, control armies of the dead, master any skill when needed, and so on. ToB classes just hit stuff and maybe teleport. Really, it's not the same level of play at all. If the Cleric focuses soley on close combat it's a closer deal of course, but that's just because the Cleric is ignoring a heck of a lot of his abilities. In the arena situation, the Cleric should be able to have said army of the dead standing by to provide cover while he rains down death. I'd prefer ultra long range archery for such things... your minions get in the way, while you fire from a kilometer or so up, using persistant Guided Shot (thanks PrC Ranger!) and Chain of Eyes to spot.

And the Arcane Swordsage is a special adaptation suggestion that's not even complete (IIRC it doesn't mention the casting stat, for example). From what's implied, it would be quite powerful, but without full information it's impossible to say.

JaronK

Exarch
2010-01-25, 02:05 AM
Ah, I feared the ToB would get squashed. I was curious if there was something I didn't know about.

RE: Summoned Creatures. If they get Spell Resistance, they're entitled to it when they step into the Anti-Magic Field. Additionally, you can also summon creatures with ranged attacks.

The Initiate of Mystra feat really does seem to make it more difficult, as they get a silly AMF that they can cast in.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-25, 02:18 AM
Keep in mind that Initiate of Mystra-level optimization is crazy-broken. At that point, the Unholy Trinity is probably in-play as well, meaning combat just got stupid. The Cleric is immortal at that point, through a good combination of DMM-Persist buffs as Su abilities that function in an AMF(and cannot be dispelled). The only things that can kill one built for that is extra-hot fire effects(Searing Spell and Hellfire being the most common). Now, an Incantrix built for blasting is nearly immortal, definitely goes first, and may well have Searing Spell. If she does, she wins, simply by winning initiative, hitting him with a Quickened Twinned Orb of Flaming Frosting KILL, then switching to searing when the first one fails. If she doesn't have Searing, however, instead any action taken by the Cleric that might affect her causes her to port to her personal demiplane as a free action, where she spends several days scrying him before returning 6 seconds after leaving with a precise spell loadout designed to kill him.

In other words, Wizard wins, but that's like saying a Lion kills better than a bear. It may be true, but either one can kill you no problem.

Milskidasith
2010-01-25, 02:33 AM
Keep in mind that Initiate of Mystra-level optimization is crazy-broken. At that point, the Unholy Trinity is probably in-play as well, meaning combat just got stupid. The Cleric is immortal at that point, through a good combination of DMM-Persist buffs as Su abilities that function in an AMF(and cannot be dispelled). The only things that can kill one built for that is extra-hot fire effects(Searing Spell and Hellfire being the most common). Now, an Incantrix built for blasting is nearly immortal, definitely goes first, and may well have Searing Spell. If she does, she wins, simply by winning initiative, hitting him with a Quickened Twinned Orb of Flaming Frosting KILL, then switching to searing when the first one fails. If she doesn't have Searing, however, instead any action taken by the Cleric that might affect her causes her to port to her personal demiplane as a free action, where she spends several days scrying him before returning 6 seconds after leaving with a precise spell loadout designed to kill him.

In other words, Wizard wins, but that's like saying a Lion kills better than a bear. It may be true, but either one can kill you no problem.

Lions and bears, while powerful, will have significant disadvantages over a human in combat. Namely, humans have weapons, and if that fails, humans can also run at sprinting speeds for far longer. Then there are just the incidents where humans kill animals with their bare hands, like the man who ripped out a leopard's tongue while it was trying to maul him.

Tavar
2010-01-25, 02:36 AM
Perhaps we should note that in this case, all other contestants are Lame, blind, sheep.

Temotei
2010-01-25, 02:37 AM
Lions and bears, while powerful, will have significant disadvantages over a human in combat. Namely, humans have weapons, and if that fails, humans can also run at sprinting speeds for far longer. Then there are just the incidents where humans kill animals with their bare hands, like the man who ripped out a leopard's tongue while it was trying to maul him.

This.

Guns. Bows. Weapons win.

Plus, when humans go killing/hunting, they go in groups, usually.

Milskidasith
2010-01-25, 02:38 AM
Perhaps we should note that in this case, all other contestants are Lame, blind, sheep.

That significantly increases the odds of a lion or bear winning, yes.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-25, 02:40 AM
Lions and bears, while powerful, will have significant disadvantages over a human in combat. Namely, humans have weapons, and if that fails, humans can also run at sprinting speeds for far longer. Then there are just the incidents where humans kill animals with their bare hands, like the man who ripped out a leopard's tongue while it was trying to maul him.Humans with weapons are the Artificer's in the equation, they can win via infrastructure and having a huge variety of attack options that the Lion's and Bears can't match up to, but they're useless without manufacturing. Someone killing a lion or bear unarmed(look up the story behind the K. A. Bar knife sometime) is rare enough to be a triple 20 or similar variant.

As for running away, well, a Monk can do that. :smalltongue:

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-25, 02:45 AM
At standard optimization levels, I generally consider the order of power for direct PvP competition to be:

Wizard
Psion
Cleric/Druid
Sorceror

Getting into setting specific cheese? Well, there's a way to handle anything. Sometimes, it's just a higher level of cheese.

Milskidasith
2010-01-25, 02:48 AM
At standard optimization levels, I generally consider the order of power for direct PvP competition to be:

Wizard
Psion
Cleric/Druid
Sorceror

Getting into setting specific cheese? Well, there's a way to handle anything. Sometimes, it's just a higher level of cheese.

Sorcerers can do anything Psions can do and have more variety in feats, PrCs, and spells. Psions should be about even with them, if not lower, though the versatility of augmentation helps a bit. Psions definitely don't beat Clerics or Druids.

In other news: I still think it's awesome Daniel M'Mburugu ripped the tongue out of a leopard with his bare hands. That's pretty insane.

Temotei
2010-01-25, 02:49 AM
Sorcerers can do anything Psions can do and have more variety in feats, PrCs, and spells. Psions should be about even with them, if not lower, though the versatility of augmentation helps a bit. Psions definitely don't beat Clerics or Druids.

In other news: I still think it's awesome Daniel M'Mburugu ripped the tongue out of a leopard with his bare hands. That's pretty insane.

I'll have to do that in a game. Just randomly explore the woods, make a druid mad, hope he shifts into a leopard, and tear out his/her tongue. :smallamused:

Exarch
2010-01-25, 03:06 AM
I love how these conversations go. I really do.

Other than Orbs and Prismatic Walls, what else can be done to deal with the AMF? Also, if I'm not mistaken...that means the cleric has 0 access to magic items, right?

Tavar
2010-01-25, 03:08 AM
Walls of Force. Disjunction.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-25, 03:10 AM
I love how these conversations go. I really do.

Other than Orbs and Prismatic Walls, what else can be done to deal with the AMF? Also, if I'm not mistaken...that means the cleric has 0 access to magic items, right?Vow of Poverty. And for killing him, I recommend Transmute Rock to Lava cast on the roof. Won't kill him, but he'll notice. Or simply Incantrix and a Searing Orb that deals 400+ damage out of a 4th level spell slot. I find that to be a fairly reliable method of killing things.

Killer Angel
2010-01-25, 03:19 AM
Lions and bears, while powerful, will have significant disadvantages over a human in combat. Namely, humans have weapons, and if that fails, humans can also run at sprinting speeds for far longer.

Usually, Lions and Bears don't cast spells.
ToB classe are good and strong, but a cleric has more powerful options. If he loses (which is a possibility), probably is because he has done something wrong.

(side note: wiz. Vs cleric... they're both tier 1, so it's moot. given different circumstances, the winner may be one or the other)

Ernir
2010-01-25, 06:58 AM
Vow of Poverty.

I'm AFB, but I think VoP is either mostly or entirely (Su). =/

olentu
2010-01-25, 07:07 AM
I'm AFB, but I think VoP is either mostly or entirely (Su). =/

I recall something that said that unlike normal feats that are extraordinary all exalted feats are supernatural.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-25, 07:17 AM
Sorcerers can do anything Psions can do and have more variety in feats, PrCs, and spells. Psions should be about even with them, if not lower, though the versatility of augmentation helps a bit. Psions definitely don't beat Clerics or Druids.

In other news: I still think it's awesome Daniel M'Mburugu ripped the tongue out of a leopard with his bare hands. That's pretty insane.

In PvP? You're wrong.

Psions have nova power which gives them an edge over cleric/druid, and even sorceror, as well as more favorably scaling powers.

I will agree that Clerics and Druids are more versatile and powerful in standard D&D settings. But Psions are nova kings. Sorceror is close, but I give a slight edge to psion.

Optimystik
2010-01-25, 07:21 AM
Antimagic Field stops summoned creatures. They disappear if they enter one and reappear when the field moves/ends.


Other than Orbs and Prismatic Walls, what else can be done to deal with the AMF? Also, if I'm not mistaken...that means the cleric has 0 access to magic items, right?

@ both of you: Called creatures (not summons) are completely unaffected by an AMF, except that they themselves cannot use magic. So the cleric can call something with a martial bent to do his fighting for him, using a spell like Planar Ally or Gate, before activating an AMF.

Also, note that an AMF shuts down any supernatural Maneuvers/Stances from ToB (but not the extraordinary ones.) An AMF would likely hamper the cleric more than the ToB user though, so he should think long and hard before using it.


I'm AFB, but I think VoP is either mostly or entirely (Su). =/

Many of the benefits (particularly the combat-relevant ones) are, but some are not. For instance, the ability to go without food and drink is (Ex), but the AC bonus is (Su).

Edit:


Psions have nova power which gives them an edge over cleric/druid, and even sorceror, as well as more favorably scaling powers.

For a straight psion vs. straight sorcerer, I agree with you. However, I daresay a sorcerer's ability to stack metamagic (coupled with the right PrC) would allow them to break even with a Psion. Though a psion abusing PP-recovery techniques, or one with access to Hyperconscious, might have the edge.

How would Cindy (was it your build?) or the Mailman stack up against a psion, damagewise?

Bayar
2010-01-25, 07:25 AM
Yeah, but who would cripple his/her character with VoP in the first place ?

lord_khaine
2010-01-25, 07:27 AM
Also, note that an AMF shuts down any supernatural Maneuvers/Stances from ToB (but not the extraordinary ones.) An AMF would likely hamper the cleric more than the ToB user though, so he should think long and hard before using it.



The main problem though is when he uses the cheater of mystra feat to continue casting inside the field.

Optimystik
2010-01-25, 07:28 AM
Yeah, but who would cripple his/her character with VoP in the first place ?

A druid can benefit from it quite easily and well, as generally their Divine Focus is something that doesn't break the vow (like a pool of water, berries etc.)

Manifesters do very well with it also - Psion, Ardent, Wilder, and Erudite. Not to mention a Psywar with the Mindblade ACF, or a Monk/Psywar with Tashalatora.


The main problem though is when he uses the cheater of mystra feat to continue casting inside the field.

This is true, but you have to worship Mystra to get it, and not all campaigns take place in FR. Whereas ToB can be used anywhere.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-25, 07:32 AM
A druid can benefit from it quite easily and well, as generally their Divine Focus is something that doesn't break the vow (like a pool of water, berries etc.)

Manifesters do very well with it also - Psion, Ardent, Wilder, and Erudite. Not to mention a Psywar with the Mindblade ACF, or a Monk/Psywar with Tashalatora.

Manifesters don't do so well with it at higher optimization levels, though I suppose a Druid/Ardent Theurge would fare nicely. Shame on missing out on wildshape, but it's not as if druid needs it.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-25, 07:33 AM
@ both of you: Called creatures (not summons) are completely unaffected by an AMF, except that they themselves cannot use magic. So the cleric can call something with a martial bent to do his fighting for him, using a spell like Planar Ally or Gate, before activating an AMF.

Also, note that an AMF shuts down any supernatural Maneuvers/Stances from ToB (but not the extraordinary ones.) An AMF would likely hamper the cleric more than the ToB user though, so he should think long and hard before using it.



Many of the benefits (particularly the combat-relevant ones) are, but some are not. For instance, the ability to go without food and drink is (Ex), but the AC bonus is (Su).

Edit:



For a straight psion vs. straight sorcerer, I agree with you. However, I daresay a sorcerer's ability to stack metamagic (coupled with the right PrC) would allow them to break even with a Psion. Though a psion abusing PP-recovery techniques, or one with access to Hyperconscious, might have the edge.

How would Cindy (was it your build?) or the Mailman stack up against a psion, damagewise?

Psion has an edge, due to the fact that they can get 4 readied actions and an extra turn whenever they want it, at a moment's notice.

It's not just nova. It's precision actions, whenever you need them.

Optimystik
2010-01-25, 07:35 AM
Psion has an edge, due to the fact that they can get 4 readied actions and an extra turn whenever they want it, at a moment's notice.

It's not just nova. It's precision actions, whenever you need them.

That makes sense; I'll admit Schismchronicity cheese hadn't factored into my
(hasty) calculations.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-25, 07:38 AM
That makes sense; I'll admit Schismchronicity cheese hadn't factored into my
(hasty) calculations.

mmhmm. Opponent casts? Use a synch to energy stun them. two saves and a concentration, or you lose the power.

They don't lose it? Use another.

olentu
2010-01-25, 03:43 PM
Many of the benefits (particularly the combat-relevant ones) are, but some are not. For instance, the ability to go without food and drink is (Ex), but the AC bonus is (Su).

As a note while some of the benefits of the benefit of the feat are supernatural there is also the question as to if exalted feats are supernatural in and of themselves as should they be then it would not really matter since one would loose the ability that grants the benefits of voluntary poverty.

Brendan
2010-01-25, 06:14 PM
going by the lion/bear analogy, the wizard is an f-16, the cleric is a AT-ST, the TOB classes are the lion/bears, and the other classes are small woodland mammals.

The Deej
2010-01-25, 06:47 PM
going by the lion/bear analogy, the wizard is an f-16, the cleric is a AT-ST, the TOB classes are the lion/bears, and the other classes are small woodland mammals.

I would call that a bit of an exaggeration. I've seen ToB do stuff on par with moderately optimized fullcasters. Swordsage rocks, Crusaders won't die, and don't forget Iron Heart Surge.

I would adjust your metaphor thusly:

F-16: wizard
AT-ST: Cleric
Elemental (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Elemental_%28Battle_Armor%29): ToB class
Lion/Bear: other PC class
woodland critter: NPC class

Tavar
2010-01-25, 06:49 PM
Right, be we aren't talking about moderately optimized fullcasters. We're talking about pulled-out-all-the-stops optimized fullcasters. In that case, non-fullcasters get left in the dust.

Mongoose87
2010-01-25, 06:53 PM
I would call that a bit of an exaggeration. I've seen ToB do stuff on par with moderately optimized fullcasters. Swordsage rocks, Crusaders won't die, and don't forget Iron Heart Surge.

I would adjust your metaphor thusly:

F-16: wizard
AT-ST: Cleric
Elemental (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Elemental_%28Battle_Armor%29): ToB class
Lion/Bear: other PC class
woodland critter: NPC class

What's the Truenamer?

The Glyphstone
2010-01-25, 06:57 PM
An aphid being milked by an at colony the Cleric stepped on.

Ranos
2010-01-25, 07:03 PM
How do you get an antimagic field at level 7 anyway ?

The Deej
2010-01-25, 07:35 PM
What's the Truenamer?

A field cricket. It mostly just makes annoying noises.


Right, be we aren't talking about moderately optimized fullcasters. We're talking about pulled-out-all-the-stops optimized fullcasters. In that case, non-fullcasters get left in the dust.

ToB can also be made ridiculously broken as well. I stand by my metaphor. If you'll note, the metaphor was Wizard, Cleric, ToB, not Wizard/PrC build that is banned by sane DM's vs. ToB. That's more like Nuclear stealth submarine armed with nukes.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 07:42 PM
How do you get an antimagic field at level 7 anyway ?

There are these fun items called scrolls...

Tavar
2010-01-25, 07:49 PM
ToB can also be made ridiculously broken as well. I stand by my metaphor. If you'll note, the metaphor was Wizard, Cleric, ToB, not Wizard/PrC build that is banned by sane DM's vs. ToB. That's more like Nuclear stealth submarine armed with nukes.
Actually, this is the original Analogy;


Keep in mind that Initiate of Mystra-level optimization is crazy-broken. At that point, the Unholy Trinity is probably in-play as well, meaning combat just got stupid. The Cleric is immortal at that point, through a good combination of DMM-Persist buffs as Su abilities that function in an AMF(and cannot be dispelled). The only things that can kill one built for that is extra-hot fire effects(Searing Spell and Hellfire being the most common). Now, an Incantrix built for blasting is nearly immortal, definitely goes first, and may well have Searing Spell. If she does, she wins, simply by winning initiative, hitting him with a Quickened Twinned Orb of Flaming Frosting KILL, then switching to searing when the first one fails. If she doesn't have Searing, however, instead any action taken by the Cleric that might affect her causes her to port to her personal demiplane as a free action, where she spends several days scrying him before returning 6 seconds after leaving with a precise spell loadout designed to kill him.

In other words, Wizard wins, but that's like saying a Lion kills better than a bear. It may be true, but either one can kill you no problem.

Also, ToB can't really be made much more ridiculous than standard Optimized Melee builds. High level Casters can pretty much ignore those builds, though, so I still don't see your point.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 08:03 PM
Actually, this is the original Analogy;



Also, ToB can't really be made much more ridiculous than standard Optimized Melee builds. High level Casters can pretty much ignore those builds, though, so I still don't see your point.

ToB pulls the advantage in terms of numbers of attacks, but that's about it, offensively. Defensively, they have a definite edge.

Tavar
2010-01-25, 08:04 PM
ToB pulls the advantage in terms of numbers of attacks, but that's about it, offensively. Defensively, they have a definite edge.

Compared to standard melee, yes. Compared to Optimized Casters? Hell No.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 08:05 PM
Compared to standard melee, yes. Compared to Optimized Casters? Hell No.

Yes, that was what I meant. Casters win in both arenas, to be honest (although ToB might still win in number of attacks. Go Go Tiger Claw School!)

Flickerdart
2010-01-25, 08:11 PM
Yes, that was what I meant. Casters win in both arenas, to be honest (although ToB might still win in number of attacks. Go Go Tiger Claw School!)
Incarnum wins for number of attacks. Psionics VS ToB VS Incarnum would be much more entertaining.

The Deej
2010-01-25, 08:18 PM
*Peruses ToB to support his argument*


Searing Charge
4th level Desert Wind strike

You gain the ability to fly at your base land speed with perfect maneuverability while charging, and deal an extra 5d6 fire damage.


I've never seen any normal melee class do anything like this as part of their class abilities. Reading through ToB gives me the impression that it's everything normal melee fighters are PLUS a whole friggin bag of tricks akin to sub-optimized casting on top of that.

Is ToB weaker than fullcaster? I'll give you that much.

Is it as blow-off as normal melee? Heck no.

Edit:

Actually, this is the original Analogy;


I wasn't refering to that analogy. I was defending the one that I just borrowed and modified. The one that I posted is the opinion I was defending.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 08:21 PM
Incarnum wins for number of attacks. Psionics VS ToB VS Incarnum would be much more entertaining.

I dunno. Bolt-spamming is damn powerful. Aptitude IS in ToB after all.

JaronK
2010-01-25, 08:31 PM
Indeed, if we played strict RAW ToB wins for number of attacks, as Aptitude crossbows and 1d2 Crusaders both lead to infinite attacks.

JaronK

Tavar
2010-01-25, 08:41 PM
I wasn't refering to that analogy. I was defending the one that I just borrowed and modified. The one that I posted is the opinion I was defending.

Then perhaps you should specify that. I was assuming that you're modified one was using the same principles of judging as the original.

Flickerdart
2010-01-25, 08:43 PM
Indeed, if we played strict RAW ToB wins for number of attacks, as Aptitude crossbows and 1d2 Crusaders both lead to infinite attacks.

JaronK
Infinite loops don't count as an attack routine, which is what I meant. I'm sure that Incarnum could be used for some crazy game-breaking cheese like that too, though.

The Deej
2010-01-25, 08:59 PM
Then perhaps you should specify that. I was assuming that you're modified one was using the same principles of judging as the original.

I was under the impression that the one between mine and the original lion/bear analogy (the F-16/AT-ST/Lion/Bear/animal one) had adjusted the scale already. I used that second analogy's scale to create my third one. I had hoped that the fact that I quoted the second one made it clear that I was using that new scale of comparison. I'll admit that it's possible that I overlooked the fact that PrC's for wizards and clerics might have been factored into that (second) analogy, but not into mine.

Information was obviously lost in the whole process, and these sorts of miscommunications are exactly why I dislike text-only communication.

Tavar
2010-01-25, 08:59 PM
True. Makes things much harder to judge.

Pyro_Azer
2010-01-25, 11:02 PM
Lions and bears, while powerful, will have significant disadvantages over a human in combat. Namely, humans have weapons, and if that fails, humans can also run at sprinting speeds for far longer. Then there are just the incidents where humans kill animals with their bare hands, like the man who ripped out a leopard's tongue while it was trying to maul him.

Minor nitpick: Humans may be able to run longer but lions and bears can run far faster. The average black bear can sprint at 45 mph over short distances. More than enough to catch a human.

Anyway, I am curious as to why you are trying to defeat a cleric build with tob as the guy already hates tob. Wouldn't this just cause him to hate tob and think it is even more broken?

Tavar
2010-01-25, 11:12 PM
Anyway, I am curious as to why you are trying to defeat a cleric build with tob as the guy already hates tob. Wouldn't this just cause him to hate tob and think it is even more broken?

I think the other guy insinuated that the ToB classes would be victorious in this setting, and the OP is asking if he's right.

Glimbur
2010-01-25, 11:28 PM
Infinite loops don't count as an attack routine, which is what I meant. I'm sure that Incarnum could be used for some crazy game-breaking cheese like that too, though.

You can do silly things with Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion. That's infinite power points, a trickle when you're otherwise out, or a moderate amount of extra, depending on your reading.

There's Midnight Augmentation, which is nice because you can bend the "no augmenting over ML" rule. There's Stongheart Vest + Hellfire Warlock/Body Fuel/Anything else that is balanced by causing ability damage. Manticore Belt can get a lot of ranged attacks, a Totemist could probably swing 8-10 melee attacks a round, and Incarnate can help you get bigger numbers on disarming or tripping or whatever via a number of soulmelds.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-26, 12:33 AM
*Peruses ToB to support his argument*



I've never seen any normal melee class do anything like this as part of their class abilities. Reading through ToB gives me the impression that it's everything normal melee fighters are PLUS a whole friggin bag of tricks akin to sub-optimized casting on top of that.

Is ToB weaker than fullcaster? I'll give you that much.

Is it as blow-off as normal melee? Heck no.ToB can do most of the standard melee tricks pretty well. A Barb can outdamage it, by a considerable margin, but ToB has more options. The best way I saw it explained was:
Fighters and Barbs go from 1-8. Casters go from 3-11. ToB goes from 5-7. It's less powerful at the high end, but really hard to make suck, and far more balanced than things like the big 5(6).