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Rasman
2010-01-25, 01:20 AM
I've been reading though some Monk guides and one in particular brought up the fact that if you got your hands on an Amulet of Mighty Fists that you could have it enchanted with weapon enchants like Flaming or Shocking, but I don't really understand how that would be rationalized considering it's a neck piece and not an actual weapon. Anyone mind explaining the reasoning/logic behind this?

Signmaker
2010-01-25, 01:23 AM
I've been reading though some Monk guides and one in particular brought up the fact that if you got your hands on an Amulet of Mighty Fists that you could have it enchanted with weapon enchants like Flaming or Shocking, but I don't really understand how that would be rationalized considering it's a neck piece and not an actual weapon. Anyone mind explaining the reasoning/logic behind this?

You're probably going to want Necklace of Natural Attacks instead, as it's a lot cheaper. And the idea is that you'd swap +1s for special abilities.

Rasman
2010-01-25, 01:30 AM
You're probably going to want Necklace of Natural Attacks instead, as it's a lot cheaper. And the idea is that you'd swap +1s for special abilities.

I actually already have Amulet of Mighty Fists +5. Good thing dead Frost Giant Kings don't need their loot anymore.

not that that's the point of the post...

Signmaker
2010-01-25, 01:31 AM
I actually already have Amulet of Mighty Fists +5. Good thing dead Frost Giant Kings don't need their loot anymore.

Wow.

And yeah, further enchanting on that is likely to be a pain due to the exorbitant cost. Good luck with that.

raitalin
2010-01-25, 02:00 AM
I've never understood why the Amulet is so freaking expensive, what's the reasoning behind it not being enchantable just like, and with the same prices as, other weapons?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-25, 02:04 AM
I've never understood why the Amulet is so freaking expensive, what's the reasoning behind it not being enchantable just like, and with the same prices as, other weapons?It's priced as an improperly-slotted item that boosts several attacks, IIRC. I'm pretty sure the developers even admitted in an article that they made it far too expensive. Just use the Necklace from Savage Species, that thing's actually balanced.

Barbarian MD
2010-01-25, 02:43 PM
A number of DMs will let you enchant a set of "handwraps" that take up your gauntlet slot. Just ask--most are usually amenable. Just pay the masterwork cost and then enhance appropriately.

deuxhero
2010-01-25, 03:01 PM
The Natural attacks amulets is also free in one of the D&D fight club articles on wizards site, not sure what one.

Rasman
2010-01-26, 02:23 AM
A number of DMs will let you enchant a set of "handwraps" that take up your gauntlet slot. Just ask--most are usually amenable. Just pay the masterwork cost and then enhance appropriately.

my DM offered something like that, offered me Ki Straps that were enhanced, but what he wanted me to get is just too expensive atm considering their base cost is 5000g and until we get to a major city to sell loot, that's about all I have.

none of this actually answers my question though, because I don't really care about Amulet of Natural attacks atm...

Eloel
2010-01-26, 03:28 AM
none of this actually answers my question though, because I don't really care about Amulet of Natural attacks atm...

Why not? It's the same thing with a different name and a balanced price.

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-26, 03:45 AM
I've been reading though some Monk guides and one in particular brought up the fact that if you got your hands on an Amulet of Mighty Fists that you could have it enchanted with weapon enchants like Flaming or Shocking, but I don't really understand how that would be rationalized considering it's a neck piece and not an actual weapon. Anyone mind explaining the reasoning/logic behind this?

There are not, to my knowledge, actual rules on this. Most DM's (that I know of) simply allow their monk players to trade bonuses for weapon properties, because it's providing the same type of bonus already. It's a fair trade, assuming the normal weapon and armor properties are balanced.

There is a precedent for this in the 3.0 Arms and Equipment guide. Bracers of Armor have a section detailing how they can have armor properties added, and how this can lead to Bracers of Armor with a total bonus of +13, though you cannot exceed +8 armor in actual bonuses. If you apply this to a wondrous magic item that give a weapon enhancement bonus instead of an AC armor bonus, it makes sense.

Rasman
2010-01-26, 04:35 AM
Why not? It's the same thing with a different name and a balanced price.

because nothing anyone said was pertinent to my actual question, except for indirectly mhvaughan's statement, it was just a discussion about the balance between two different items…that and the fact that I ALREADY have the Amulet of Mighty Fists and can’t just look at my DM and say, “Can’t this be an Amulet of Natural Attacks instead?”


There are not, to my knowledge, actual rules on this. Most DM's (that I know of) simply allow their monk players to trade bonuses for weapon properties, because it's providing the same type of bonus already. It's a fair trade, assuming the normal weapon and armor properties are balanced.

There is a precedent for this in the 3.0 Arms and Equipment guide. Bracers of Armor have a section detailing how they can have armor properties added, and how this can lead to Bracers of Armor with a total bonus of +13, though you cannot exceed +8 armor in actual bonuses. If you apply this to a wondrous magic item that give a weapon enhancement bonus instead of an AC armor bonus, it makes sense.

now that actually makes sense and is helpful, but just to clarify, because I'm dumb when it comes to this, it basically says that I'd be taking the Amulet and adding another +1 equivalent enchantment to it, just like I would to do a +5 Gauntlet and say, add Shocking or Flaming to it, thus the Amulet gives my unarmed strikes the +5 and the Shocking qualities?

Eloel
2010-01-26, 04:53 AM
because nothing anyone said was pertinent to my actual question, except for indirectly mhvaughan's statement, it was just a discussion about the balance between two different items…that and the fact that I ALREADY have the Amulet of Mighty Fists and can’t just look at my DM and say, “Can’t this be an Amulet of Natural Attacks instead?”

Just sell it and buy the other one - you won't lose 'any' money, due to the pricings. (Heck, you gain 75k from selling your amulet for half price, the necklace costs 50600 for +5. You even save some cash!)


now that actually makes sense and is helpful, but just to clarify, because I'm dumb when it comes to this, it basically says that I'd be taking the Amulet and adding another +1 equivalent enchantment to it, just like I would to do a +5 Gauntlet and say, add Shocking or Flaming to it, thus the Amulet gives my unarmed strikes the +5 and the Shocking qualities?
Amulet of Mighty Fists is bonus^2 * 6,000.

So, upgrading a Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 to Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 + Shocking would cost you;

( ( 6 ^ 2 ) * 6,000 ) - ( ( 5 ^ 2 ) * 6,000 ) = 66,000 gold


Adding Flaming to the +6 one would cost;
( ( 7 ^ 2 ) * 6,000 ) - ( ( 6 ^ 2 ) * 6,000 ) = 78,000 gold

It just gets more and more expensive from there...

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-26, 04:54 AM
now that actually makes sense and is helpful, but just to clarify, because I'm dumb when it comes to this, it basically says that I'd be taking the Amulet and adding another +1 equivalent enchantment to it, just like I would to do a +5 Gauntlet and say, add Shocking or Flaming to it, thus the Amulet gives my unarmed strikes the +5 and the Shocking qualities?

No, it's a trade. If you have a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists, you go and have it re-enchanted as a +4 Shocking Amulet of Might Fists. It has an effective bonus of +5 still, and retails for the same amount as a +5 Amulet, but it only gives you a +4 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, and +1d6 electrical damage from Shocking. It's just like how the weapon properties rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) work. :smallsmile:

If you want to be tricky/cheesy like me (sometimes) I try and stack two different items like this. Like using a Heavy Fortification Bracer of Armor +8 with a +5 thistledown Ghostward armor of (+4 of different cool armor properties) for my pixie warlock, so I can get a full +8 armor bonus, a +5 enhancement bonus, +5 enhancement bonus on Touch AC, and my full DEX bonus to AC. But that's almost certain to make a DM's head explode. :smalltongue:

Rasman
2010-01-26, 05:38 AM
Just sell it and buy the other one - you won't lose 'any' money, due to the pricings. (Heck, you gain 75k from selling your amulet for half price, the necklace costs 50600 for +5. You even save some cash!)

Amulet of Mighty Fists is bonus^2 * 6,000.

So, upgrading a Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 to Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 + Shocking would cost you;

( ( 6 ^ 2 ) * 6,000 ) - ( ( 5 ^ 2 ) * 6,000 ) = 66,000 gold


Adding Flaming to the +6 one would cost;
( ( 7 ^ 2 ) * 6,000 ) - ( ( 6 ^ 2 ) * 6,000 ) = 78,000 gold

It just gets more and more expensive from there...

I...see...hmm...point duely noted...probably not a bad idea, now I just have to find a way to sneak this past my DM without pissing him off, because he pretty much handed it to me on a silver platter, sounds feasable though.


No, it's a trade. If you have a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists, you go and have it re-enchanted as a +4 Shocking Amulet of Might Fists. It has an effective bonus of +5 still, and retails for the same amount as a +5 Amulet, but it only gives you a +4 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, and +1d6 electrical damage from Shocking. It's just like how the weapon properties rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) work. :smallsmile:

If you want to be tricky/cheesy like me (sometimes) I try and stack two different items like this. Like using a Heavy Fortification Bracer of Armor +8 with a +5 thistledown Ghostward armor of (+4 of different cool armor properties) for my pixie warlock, so I can get a full +8 armor bonus, a +5 enhancement bonus, +5 enhancement bonus on Touch AC, and my full DEX bonus to AC. But that's almost certain to make a DM's head explode. :smalltongue:

my head is spinning already...any thoughts on how to cheese this so I can technically keep the +5 to attack, but get some nice bonuses to my unarmed strikes?

Eldariel
2010-01-26, 07:42 AM
my head is spinning already...any thoughts on how to cheese this so I can technically keep the +5 to attack, but get some nice bonuses to my unarmed strikes?

Have a Druid cast Greater Magic Fang on you while under Beads of Karma & Orange Prism Ioun Stone with core CL 15? That'll get you +5 hands for the day. Technically, it could even be Permanencied if you don't have a Druid in the party (poor, poor you).

Other than that, it's either the Necklace of Natural Weapons, or some "homebrew" improvement on the Amulet; standard Amulet doesn't go over +5 nor keep weapon special abilities.

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-26, 04:24 PM
my head is spinning already...any thoughts on how to cheese this so I can technically keep the +5 to attack, but get some nice bonuses to my unarmed strikes?

Your DM sounds nice, so I wouldn't pull this on him, but technically the rules for combining magic items in the MIC allow you to apply the magic properties of another item to an item you already are wearing. You could add the properties of +1 Flaming, Shocking, Corrosive, Morphing Necklace of Natural Attacks to your Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 for 150% the cost of a +5 Necklace of Natural Attacks. The +1 enhancement bonus on the Necklace and the +5 enhancement bonus on the Amulet won't stack, so you only get a +5 to attack/damage, but you do also get the flaming, shocking, corrosive, and morphing properties to all your natural or unarmed attacks.

But all of this is based on the DM allowing you to use weapon properties on a wondrous item with an attack enhancement bonus, of course.

Eloel
2010-01-26, 04:28 PM
Your DM sounds nice, so I wouldn't pull this on him, but technically the rules for combining magic items in the MIC allow you to apply the magic properties of another item to an item you already are wearing. You could add the properties of +1 Flaming, Shocking, Corrosive, Morphing Necklace of Natural Attacks to your Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 for 150% the cost of a +5 Necklace of Natural Attacks. The +1 enhancement bonus on the Necklace and the +5 enhancement bonus on the Amulet won't stack, so you only get a +5 to attack/damage, but you do also get the flaming, shocking, corrosive, and morphing properties to all your natural or unarmed attacks.

But all of this is based on the DM allowing you to use weapon properties on a wondrous item with an attack enhancement bonus, of course.

Necklace of Natural Attacks explicitly allows weapon properties. DM could rule against it, but it would be a house rule, not RAW.

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-26, 04:35 PM
Awesome! Then it works without a problem. Just buy the necklace with the properties you want at 150% the price and add it to your amulet. :smallcool:

Don't forget to buy weapon augment crystals for your body, and see if you can add the Sizing property. :smalltongue:

flabort
2010-01-26, 05:19 PM
Use the Briliant Energy enchantment on either amulet, and you'll
A) never need a torch again (why are your hands glowing?)
B) bypass armors and shields (you cannot strike me unarmed through my--OWEE!! OW, OW, AURG!)
C) not deal damage to constructs and undead.

Now, because constructs and undead are immune to your punching now, which is a small set back, you can remove your amulet temporarilly to fight them, and don't need to worry about anything else that undead and constructs are immune to.

This is a +4 bonus, so you've got a +1 left, which you can spend on Shock (electrical damage), Keen (extra critical range), or Ki focus (monks only).

Or, as an alternate path, You can use Speed (+3), and Wounding (+2). the net result is you making an extra attack each full attack you make, and dealing 1 Con damage to anything with a Con score each attack.

Rasman
2010-01-26, 05:48 PM
Your DM sounds nice, so I wouldn't pull this on him, but technically the rules for combining magic items in the MIC allow you to apply the magic properties of another item to an item you already are wearing. You could add the properties of +1 Flaming, Shocking, Corrosive, Morphing Necklace of Natural Attacks to your Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 for 150% the cost of a +5 Necklace of Natural Attacks. The +1 enhancement bonus on the Necklace and the +5 enhancement bonus on the Amulet won't stack, so you only get a +5 to attack/damage, but you do also get the flaming, shocking, corrosive, and morphing properties to all your natural or unarmed attacks.

But all of this is based on the DM allowing you to use weapon properties on a wondrous item with an attack enhancement bonus, of course.

lol...call me Sparky I guess, looks like I have something to save up for then, because, that would kick ass on so many levels


Necklace of Natural Attacks explicitly allows weapon properties. DM could rule against it, but it would be a house rule, not RAW.

gooood...gooooood...


Awesome! Then it works without a problem. Just buy the necklace with the properties you want at 150% the price and add it to your amulet. :smallcool:

Don't forget to buy weapon augment crystals for your body, and see if you can add the Sizing property. :smalltongue:

Now am I paying 150% the price when I first get the Amulet, or 150% the price when they're merged or both?


Use the Briliant Energy enchantment on either amulet, and you'll
A) never need a torch again (why are your hands glowing?)
B) bypass armors and shields (you cannot strike me unarmed through my--OWEE!! OW, OW, AURG!)
C) not deal damage to constructs and undead.

Now, because constructs and undead are immune to your punching now, which is a small set back, you can remove your amulet temporarilly to fight them, and don't need to worry about anything else that undead and constructs are immune to.

This is a +4 bonus, so you've got a +1 left, which you can spend on Shock (electrical damage), Keen (extra critical range), or Ki focus (monks only).

Or, as an alternate path, You can use Speed (+3), and Wounding (+2). the net result is you making an extra attack each full attack you make, and dealing 1 Con damage to anything with a Con score each attack.

it's terribly ironic that you mention Brilliant Energy, we just left a tower of wizards that could make us weapons with that property, but I missed the session where we found the stuff that let us get it, so DM wouldn't let me have it without paying out the ass.

lol...Dancing Necklace of Natural attacks would be amusing to RP, "My fists, they just won't stop punching him in the face...I can't help it..."

EDIT: Also, just to clarify, does it have to be an item that fits a similar slot, or could I outright take properties from a weapon and do this?

Eldariel
2010-01-26, 06:01 PM
Use the Briliant Energy enchantment on either amulet, and you'll
A) never need a torch again (why are your hands glowing?)
B) bypass armors and shields (you cannot strike me unarmed through my--OWEE!! OW, OW, AURG!)
C) not deal damage to constructs and undead.

Now, because constructs and undead are immune to your punching now, which is a small set back, you can remove your amulet temporarilly to fight them, and don't need to worry about anything else that undead and constructs are immune to.

This is a +4 bonus, so you've got a +1 left, which you can spend on Shock (electrical damage), Keen (extra critical range), or Ki focus (monks only).

Or, as an alternate path, You can use Speed (+3), and Wounding (+2). the net result is you making an extra attack each full attack you make, and dealing 1 Con damage to anything with a Con score each attack.

Brilliant Energy is what we, in the business, refer to as "a trap". There are some very specific scenarios where it's great, but those are far outweighed by the scenarios where it does nothing. And it's a +4 ability with negative consequences.

As such, it's best acquired through spell "Brilliant Blade" (Wiz/Clr 7) or as an ability on ammunition (such as arrows). Taking a permanent enhancement out of it, unless you fight solely humanoid opponents, is going to bite you in the rear. Real hard. And no, losing the attack abilities against common, hard-to-kill opponents (particularly Undead) is not an especially awesome idea.


Speed suffers a similar fate, though that's because Boots of Speed are so much more useful and cheaper, and that's when the spell itself isn't available. Overall, it gives you a bonus way too rarely to be worthwhile.

Keen, likewise, isn't very impressive on base 20/x2 weapons; the more "critical points" (that is, either increased threat range or multiplier; mathematically they're identical average-damage wise) the weapon has, the better Keen gets and fists have 0 of those. Ki Focus is kinda...worthless since you can already do all the stuff it allows you to with Unarmed Strikes.


Now, Wounding is a good idea. A fine idea, indeed; it's only +2 (Brilliant Energy is +4), awesome against everything you want Brilliant Energy for and doesn't actively harm you vs. crit-immunes. Holy is, likewise, a nice idea as is Metalline [MiC] as it's pretty much the only means you'll be overcoming a number of damage reductions (which really bite Monk in the crotch).

Valorous [UE] is a great option for starting battles of with a bang; doubles your damage on a charge. Only +1 too. Collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision) is always fine, though I reckon Monk rather picks up means to bypass Damage Reductions first as that's (one of) their Achilles's Heels.

Holy + Metalline would allow you to overcome vast majority of the DRs while also giving a nice damage bonus, leaving you only with problems with overcoming /Chaotic DR and /Slashing and /Piercing, but those are far more rare (and can only be overcome with Versatile Unarmed Strike-feat anyways).


So I'd sell your +5 Amulet and commission a +1 Holy Metalline Necklace for now, adding Collision, Valorous and maybe e.g. Ghost Touch or Wounding in the future.

Eldariel
2010-01-26, 06:06 PM
EDIT: Also, just to clarify, does it have to be an item that fits a similar slot, or could I outright take properties from a weapon and do this?

Necklace of Natural Weapons takes throat slot, but you can enhance it as you could any standard weapon. So all standard weapon abilities are available, maximum pure enhancement is +5 and maximum worth of abilities you can have is +10.

The cost is 600+Enhancement Cost (by standard weapon guidelines) multiplied by the amount of natural weapons it enhances. Since you only enhance one (Unarmed Strike), it pretty much costs the same as a weapon would. So +1 Shocking Necklace of Natural Weapons would cost 600+8000 [+2 Enhancement] = 8600gp, and would make your fists +1 Shocking.

Irreverent Fool
2010-01-26, 06:21 PM
It's priced as an improperly-slotted item that boosts several attacks, IIRC. I'm pretty sure the developers even admitted in an article that they made it far too expensive. Just use the Necklace from Savage Species, that thing's actually balanced.

One of the few things from Savage Species that is. >.>

obnoxious
sig

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-26, 06:54 PM
Now am I paying 150% the price when I first get the Amulet, or 150% the price when they're merged or both?

When you combine two magic items in the same slot, the rule is that you add +50% of the cost of the cheaper item. Since Amulet of Mighty Fists is almost always going to be more expensive, that's why you're buying a Necklace of Natural Attacks at 150% of it's normal cost.

The rules are on pg. 233 of the Magic Item Compendium under "Improving Magic Items," if you're interested.


EDIT: Also, just to clarify, does it have to be an item that fits a similar slot, or could I outright take properties from a weapon and do this?

Generally, you can only combine two magic items into the same slot if they originate in the same spot.. so no adding weapon properties to random slots, adding boot effects to shoulder slots, etc. The Necklace of Natural Attacks is only legal for this because it allows properties to be added, and because you don't care about the enhancement bonus not stacking. If it was a Mask of Natural Attacks it would be cheaper to do this (you wouldn't have to pay the extra 50%, and instead use a face slot) but it is what it is.

Cieyrin
2010-01-26, 07:58 PM
Brilliant Energy is what we, in the business, refer to as "a trap". There are some very specific scenarios where it's great, but those are far outweighed by the scenarios where it does nothing. And it's a +4 ability with negative consequences.

As such, it's best acquired through spell "Brilliant Blade" (Wiz/Clr 7) or as an ability on ammunition (such as arrows). Taking a permanent enhancement out of it, unless you fight solely humanoid opponents, is going to bite you in the rear. Real hard. And no, losing the attack abilities against common, hard-to-kill opponents (particularly Undead) is not an especially awesome idea.


Speed suffers a similar fate, though that's because Boots of Speed are so much more useful and cheaper, and that's when the spell itself isn't available. Overall, it gives you a bonus way too rarely to be worthwhile.

Keen, likewise, isn't very impressive on base 20/x2 weapons; the more "critical points" (that is, either increased threat range or multiplier; mathematically they're identical average-damage wise) the weapon has, the better Keen gets and fists have 0 of those. Ki Focus is kinda...worthless since you can already do all the stuff it allows you to with Unarmed Strikes.


Now, Wounding is a good idea. A fine idea, indeed; it's only +2 (Brilliant Energy is +4), awesome against everything you want Brilliant Energy for and doesn't actively harm you vs. crit-immunes. Holy is, likewise, a nice idea as is Metalline [MiC] as it's pretty much the only means you'll be overcoming a number of damage reductions (which really bite Monk in the crotch).

Valorous [UE] is a great option for starting battles of with a bang; doubles your damage on a charge. Only +1 too. Collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision) is always fine, though I reckon Monk rather picks up means to bypass Damage Reductions first as that's (one of) their Achilles's Heels.

Holy + Metalline would allow you to overcome vast majority of the DRs while also giving a nice damage bonus, leaving you only with problems with overcoming /Chaotic DR and /Slashing and /Piercing, but those are far more rare (and can only be overcome with Versatile Unarmed Strike-feat anyways).


So I'd sell your +5 Amulet and commission a +1 Holy Metalline Necklace for now, adding Collision, Valorous and maybe e.g. Ghost Touch or Wounding in the future.

I agree with most of this but instead of Holy, I'd put in Sure Striking (MoF, I believe), to cover alignment DR stuff for +1, which saves you some money if DRs what we're worrying about here.

EDIT: I double-checked and while Sure Striking is indeed in MoF, the actually useful and updated version that I was talking about is in PGtF.

Xenogears
2010-01-26, 07:58 PM
Take the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat. Now your unarmed strikes can be piercing or slashing as well as bludgeoning. Now apply Fleshgrinder (BoVD) to your necklace. Everytime you strike with your unarmed strike you can command your...self to "grind" into the enemy for 5 rounds dealing damage as though you had hit them. Not sure how it'd work but it sounds so funny.

El Dorado
2010-01-26, 07:59 PM
Technically, a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)

tyckspoon
2010-01-26, 08:02 PM
Technically, a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)

Two things: A Monk's unarmed strike specifically counts as a natural weapon for things that improve natural weapons, and

Remember, however, that magic weapon enhancements that work with natural weaponry, such as the magic fangspell, also work with unarmed attacks.

.. from the same article. Either way a Necklace of Natural Attacks works.

Cieyrin
2010-01-26, 08:03 PM
Technically, a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)

I'd like to refer you to the Monk's Unarmed Strike ability:


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

I think the Amulet thus applies.

EDIT: ninja'd