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Koury
2010-01-25, 01:46 AM
So, you can only cast one quickened spell per round.

Is this the case even if you want to use your standard action to cast the 2nd quickened spell?

That seems... silly.

Temotei
2010-01-25, 01:50 AM
So, you can only cast one quickened spell per round.

Is this the case even if you want to use your standard action to cast the 2nd quickened spell?

That seems... silly.

Why would you use a standard action to cast a quickened spell?

Signmaker
2010-01-25, 01:51 AM
So, you can only cast one quickened spell per round.

Is this the case even if you want to use your standard action to cast the 2nd quickened spell?

That seems... silly.

That's because quickened spells are swift-action spells.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 01:51 AM
Why would you use a standard action to cast a quickened spell?

Secondly, how? Quickens are a Swift action. You cannot make a swift as a standard.

Temotei
2010-01-25, 01:52 AM
That's because quickened spells are swift-action spells.

The limit still applies, even if you get another swift action.


Secondly, how? Quickens are a Swift action. You cannot make a swift as a standard.

I'm more confused as to why he would want to cast a spell that's 4 slots higher than it's supposed to be during a standard action like a normal spell.

Koury
2010-01-25, 01:53 AM
Why would you use a standard action to cast a quickened spell?

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

You cast a quickened spell, as normal. Then for your standard you want to cast [perfect spell] but only have a Quickened [perfect spell] memorized today and thus can't use it this round.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 01:53 AM
The limit still applies, even if you get another swift action.

That's actually debatable as to RAI. Not RAW, RAW is clear, but still.

EDIT: That is why you are a sorcerer with Rapid Metamagic, or Arcane Spellsurge, or any of those nice tools.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-25, 01:54 AM
The limit still applies, even if you get another swift action.Which is borderline impossible. There are a very few ways to do so,(RKV being the only one that comes to mind) that don't grant a whole extra turn(which would get around the limitation).

Eurus
2010-01-25, 01:55 AM
It is rather silly, but that's the RAW. Really though, I can't imagine any potential imbalances caused by just house ruling that a caster can cast a prepared quickened spell as a non-quickened spell instead, if they really need to.

Harperfan7
2010-01-25, 01:56 AM
You can cast two quickened spells a round, but one of them is effectively "un-quickened".

sofawall
2010-01-25, 01:57 AM
You can cast two quickened spells a round, but one of them is effectively "un-quickened".

Not by the rules, amusingly.

RS14
2010-01-25, 01:58 AM
That's actually debatable as to RAI. Not RAW, RAW is clear, but still.




Swift Action

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

A swift action is clearly intended to be shorter than a standard action. I think it's just an oversight (weren't swift/immediate actions bolted on after initial publication?) that you can't take a swift action as a standard action. RAI seems strongly in favor of permitting it.

Koury
2010-01-25, 01:59 AM
It is rather silly, but that's the RAW. Really though, I can't imagine any potential imbalances caused by just house ruling that a caster can cast a prepared quickened spell as a non-quickened spell instead, if they really need to.

Well thats what I would do. Its just silly, like I said, that I'd need to. I've never understood not being able to turn a swift action into a standard action, but you can do so with a move.


You can cast two quickened spells a round, but one of them is effectively "un-quickened".

Not RAW, I believe.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-25, 01:59 AM
A swift action is clearly intended to be shorter than a move action. I think it's just an oversight (weren't swift/immediate actions bolted on after initial publication?) that you can't take a swift action as a move action. RAI seems strongly in favor of permitting it.Actually, t doesn't, and balance is shot to hell if you do so. Swift<Standard is probably fair, however. Move actions are supposed to be useless, don't forget.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 02:03 AM
A swift action is clearly intended to be shorter than a standard action. I think it's just an oversight (weren't swift/immediate actions bolted on after initial publication?) that you can't take a swift action as a standard action. RAI seems strongly in favor of permitting it.

Balance laughs horribly at that.

Koury
2010-01-25, 02:08 AM
Oddly enough, while I would allow, personally, a swift action to substitute a standard, I'd not do the same for a move.

So:

Swift/Move/Standard = OK (obviously)
Swift/Move/Swift = OK
Swift/Swift/Swift = Not OK.

*shrug*

How is a swift action more powerful then a standard?

Signmaker
2010-01-25, 02:18 AM
How is a swift action more powerful then a standard?

Surprisingly, there is a much larger variety of stuff to do with swift actions as compared to standard.

Runestar
2010-01-25, 05:38 AM
Plus, some abilities, such as tome of battle seem to have been designed around the "no more than 1 swift action/round" assumption.

Seems to be for balance reasons, unlike 4e, where swift action abilities are balanced around the assumption you can trade in move/standard actions for them. In 3e, swift actions are clearly a very rare commodity.

So if a wizard is ever found in a situation where he has only 2 quickened spells prepared (and nothing else), he can't cast both in the same round.

Lysander
2010-01-25, 10:05 AM
Also quickened spells don't provoke AOO. Doing that twice in one round would be overpowered.

drengnikrafe
2010-01-25, 11:29 AM
Also quickened spells don't provoke AOO. Doing that twice in one round would be overpowered.

At the cost of 4 spell levels?

We're talking about the type of thing that is casting Ray of Frost instead of Fireball. Granted, the difference is a lot more between higher spell levels, but the point remains.
Also, casting on the defensive.

Keld Denar
2010-01-25, 11:44 AM
Also, casting on the defensive.

Also, 5' step in MOST situations.

Person_Man
2010-01-25, 12:53 PM
By RAW, you can't take more then one Swift or Immediate Action per turn. And again by RAW, you can't sacrafice a Move or Standard Action for a Swift Action. This is actually a big deal, not just for casters, but for Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Battle builds.

Eurus
2010-01-25, 01:35 PM
Surprisingly, there is a much larger variety of stuff to do with swift actions as compared to standard.

But it seems as though a lot of the things that can be done as swift actions sort of hinge on you then having a standard action to exploit them. There are a lot of swift action 1-round buffs and boosts, some debuffs, even some mobility powers, but I'm curious as to how trading a standard action (which can, if you're talking spellcasting, do literally almost anything) for a swift action would be unbalanced. I'm not necessarily denying that it is, I'm just asking for examples. Is two boosts in a round but no strike really a potential imbalance? Reassigning Essentia twice without attacking or using any SLAs?

sofawall
2010-01-25, 03:35 PM
Two swifts means two immediates.

Koury
2010-01-25, 03:42 PM
Why is that a problem? So you can jaunt twice, or whatever. My knowledge of what is possible with swift/immediate actions is lacking, it seems.

RS14
2010-01-25, 03:57 PM
Actually, t doesn't, and balance is shot to hell if you do so. Swift<Standard is probably fair, however. Move actions are supposed to be useless, don't forget.

Yep, I realized this immediately after posting, and edited it to standard.


Two swifts means two immediates.

No. "You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn." If you want to take a standard action to take an immediate action, sure, I'd allow it, but that's not unbalanced. The only difference that has been suggested here is that you permit as a standard action: "take a swift or immediate action."

I don't personally have ToB; I'd appreciate someone explaining precisely what sort of abuse it allows.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 04:00 PM
Yay! Now I can interrupt absolutely anything anyone does to me twice a round instead of once!

You know, saying "So what, I can Abrupt Jaunt twice a turn now" is like saying, if I gave someone an extra standard action "So what, I can cast twice a turn now, whoopy..."

Koury
2010-01-25, 04:04 PM
So you can burn through your limited jaunts even faster, cool. And have you never been attacked by more then two people in a round before?

Spells can already be doubled up in a round.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 04:10 PM
Three times, then.

Koury
2010-01-25, 04:14 PM
Three times what? You're also forgetting the fact that you would not only be burning through your jaunts rapidly but you are also giving up your standard action.

Lapak
2010-01-25, 04:21 PM
But it seems as though a lot of the things that can be done as swift actions sort of hinge on you then having a standard action to exploit them. There are a lot of swift action 1-round buffs and boosts, some debuffs, even some mobility powers, but I'm curious as to how trading a standard action (which can, if you're talking spellcasting, do literally almost anything) for a swift action would be unbalanced. I'm not necessarily denying that it is, I'm just asking for examples. Is two boosts in a round but no strike really a potential imbalance? Reassigning Essentia twice without attacking or using any SLAs?This is entirely true. Double-boosting with a standard action left to use a strike is so good that it's a capstone ability for swordsages, but I don't know how much utility trading a standard for a swift has. I think it's probably ok; if it was me DMing I'd allow it on a trial basis and work things out with the players if an obviously-broken situation arose.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 04:23 PM
Three times what? You're also forgetting the fact that you would not only be burning through your jaunts rapidly but you are also giving up your standard action.

You can do much much more with a swift than you give it credit for. Abrupt Jaunt is hardly the most powerful thing you can do with it, just one of the ones you give up little to get.

Koury
2010-01-25, 04:25 PM
I'll have to second Eurus' request for some examples, then.

Runestar
2010-01-25, 06:41 PM
Also quickened spells don't provoke AOO. Doing that twice in one round would be overpowered.

Past a certain stage, you are probably auto-succeeding on defensive casting checks anyways.

RS14
2010-01-25, 08:49 PM
Yay! Now I can interrupt absolutely anything anyone does to me twice a round instead of once!

You know, saying "So what, I can Abrupt Jaunt twice a turn now" is like saying, if I gave someone an extra standard action "So what, I can cast twice a turn now, whoopy..."

You are misunderstanding the proposed change here. I'm saying that yes, you should be able to us an ability--a casting of feather fall, for instance--once as an immediate action, interrupting others, and the other time by using your standard action, as part of your regularly scheduled turn. You can still only interrupt people once per round.