Non-D&D RPGS

[nekomata2]

My group and I have decided to try and do some branching out and try some other non-D&D RPGs. So we are trying to get a list of good or highly recommended RPGs to try out.

So far, we are thinking:

World of Darkness
Mutants and Masterminds
GURPS
Mage: The Ascension
Shadowrun

Possibly either D20 Modern, or less likely, D20 future...

So any suggestions to put on the list, or recommendations from the list, or anything?

[Gralamin]

My group and I have decided to try and do some branching out and try some other non-D&D RPGs. So we are trying to get a list of good or highly recommended RPGs to try out.

So far, we are thinking:

World of Darkness
Mutants and Masterminds
GURPS
Mage: The Ascension
Shadowrun

Possibly either D20 Modern, or less likely, D20 future...

So any suggestions to put on the list, or recommendations from the list, or anything?

Heres some things I've heard about, off the top of my head:
Savage Worlds is pretty good.
Fudge is supposedly very good.
Spirit of the Century perhaps
Wushu, Risus, Serenity, and Dark Heresy I've all heard of.

[Kylarra]

What sort of genre or gametype are you looking for? I mean recommending Paranoia to gamers who like CoC is probably not going to go over well.


Then again, I'll always recommend Tales from the Floating Vagabond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_from_the_Floating_Vagabond) if you can snag yourself a hardcopy. I believe some places still sell the .pdf, so it's not unobtainable despite being out of print.

Also fun is Maid RPG (http://maidrpg.com/) and the aforementioned Paranoia.

I've heard good things about Star Wars Saga Edition, so if people in your group like SW, that's worth a shot.

[Zincorium]

World of Darkness

Very broad, and doesn't mix all that well- unless your group has a cohesive desire like all werewolves or all vampires, world of darkness doesn't have a game for you. Additionally, if you're used to D&D world of darkness isn't just a shift of gears it's moving from an SUV to a sports bike- trying to use it the same way is unsatisfying.


Mutants and Masterminds
GURPS

Own both, have played neither. Look cool though.


Mage: The Ascension

This is actually a sub-genre of world of darkness.


Shadowrun

Completely different system, very little help on designing adventures. Not an easy system to GM, but very interesting if you're up for it.


Possibly either D20 Modern, or less likely, D20 future...


Good generic systems that will be an easy transition from D&D, as most of the mechanics are exactly the same. D20 future is an expansion book for D20 modern, it's not a standalone product, so checking out D20 modern then looking at the other books in it's series is your best bet.


Personally, I'm going to recommend Spirit of the Century or Dark Heresy, depending on how crunchy and dystopian your group goes. Well-crafted games, the focus on a single setting really improves the gameplay.

[Dimers]

Shadowrun is about equivalent to D&D in terms of power level, cinematic style, and physical-world teamwork. (In the astral world and the computer world, it's usually a one-man show.) I'd recommend that for a change of scenery without much shock in terms of changing style. Feng Shui is another great system for that style, and is easy to adapt to different settings like ancient China, swashbucklery, futuristic Moscow or what-have-you. Deadlands isn't far off, either, but provides more challenge for PCs; that's only for "Weird West" games.

If you go with Shadowrun, for the love of all that's holy, get 4th-edition material. 2nd-ed was patchwork and 3rd-ed was sheer junk. 4th is easy to understand and adjudicate, with lots of currently-available supporting material.

[Dust]

'Hunter' from the old World of Darkness series for a modern man-versus-supernatural.
Spycraft 2.0 if you want to run a heist game or have players who fancy themselves James Bond.
Slasher Flick is an Indy rpg that's SPECTACULAR for a oneshot.
Scion is a god game with an awesome setting, but requires you to do lots of research beforehand and houserule a lot of stuff. The system's RAW is stupid.
All Flesh Must Be Eaten if you want a nonsensical zombie killing romp of pure awesome.
And of course, I must recommend Mutants and Masterminds as always.

[Totally Guy]

I'm running a Burning Wheel Campaign.

It's very crunchy but all that crunch enables real player empowerment. The players can establish gameworld facts and introduce NPCs by rolling enough successes on the applicable skill.

It's also got very robust social mechanics that fuse roleplay and tactical debating skills into an argument that makes sense and irrevocably matters every time.

Theres no setting but the races are very proudly written to be accurately tolkienesque.

[dsmiles]

HOL. (That is all.)

[cheezewizz2000]

I find Paranoia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_%28role-playing_game%29) can be fun as the odd 1-shot from time to time. It helps your groups let of a bit of RP-steam. It's fun ganging up and killing that one player who steals all the good loot "because his character concept needs it" in your D&D games because he's clearly a Commie Mutant Bastard who hates friend computer.

It can be adapted for more serious campaigns as well (though it's more intended as a humerous setting). Here's (http://www.crd-sector.com/) a good resource for players and GM's alike.

[Satyr]

World of Darkness

There is a vast gap in quality between the old WoD and the new, in both flavor and rules. If you can get one of the old games (Vampire: The Mascerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: Ascension and Changeling: The Dreaming), go for it. These are good games. The nWoD not so much.


Mutants and Masterminds

It's a decent superhero RPG with mild delusions of being an actual generic game. While it falls short in comparison to true generic games, it is fun, quick to play and work well, especially if you are used to D20 and like superhero comics.


GURPS

Now this is a true generic system. While it is not without flaws, it is the best system on this list, and features one of the most streamlined and elegant game mechanisms out there. What might be a problem is that the system offers you only a toolbox. It doesn't take you by the hand and tells you what to do, so you have to invest comparatively much time in the design of the campaign. It's a game for people who like to think for themselve,s but that makes it less comfortable than the usual, heavily prefabricated RPGs.


Mage: The Ascension
It's a cool game, but might be hard to get nowadays. Being out of print for five by now and all.


Shadowrun
There is a simiar story in Shadowrun as is in the WoD - the newer stuff just isn't as good as the older material. It is a fun game though.


Possibly either D20 Modern, or less likely, D20 future...
Can't say much about those two, but it is likely that Mutants and Masterminds can substitute them well (but offer stuff they can't), and Gurps certainly does everything they do, only better and then some more.

Other games I like to suggest to people is the Unisystem Game Lines by Eden Studios, like All Flesh Must Be Eaten (effectively a generic system using zombies as a trademark gimmick); rivalling to the WoD but a bit more accessible (and, when compared to the NWoD with moch better rules as well) there is also Unknown Armies, which is similar to Mage but better thought-out from a background perspective. It is also the game with the best character development / madness system out there.

[Terraoblivion]

This is honestly a hard question to answer. There are a lot of games out there with vastly different styles. If you want to smash skulls and gather vast amounts of material wealth to show off, WoD would be a bad call. Combat in the old one was slow as hell because of the amount of steps involved in every single action, while combat in the new one is simply too basic to carry the game very far. On the other hand if you want to angst and lament your situation, Weapons of the Gods would be terrible since it is about being a badass kung-fu warrior in ancient China. Then there is the question of how long term games you want to play. Some systems are simply too one note to carry more than a few sessions at a time no matter how good they are. Paranoia is the best example of this. The game is utterly hilarious and silly to play as everyone starts pointing fingers and finding flimsy excuses for why the others are commie mutant traitors, but it just wears thin quickly and you need a break and it is basically impossible to tell a coherent or longterm story in.

This being said i have some systems i would like to recommend.

The first is Exalted second edition. It is all about being epic, both in the modern colloquial meaning and in the classic meaning. The core background of the setting is that the gods rose against the creators of the world, but since they were bound so they could not raise hands against the creators, they endowed humans with power to fight the war for them. Lots of other stuff happens, but this is the most important part. You play the bearer of this power, many thousand years later, wielding incredible power to change the world to fit your vision of how it should be. Standard things for starting characters to do could be raising a barbarian horde to swarm over civilization or create artifacts capable of changing the lives of millions of people on their own. Scale is hardly small and neither are the stories you are expected to tell, but the quality of the writing makes it work well as long as you remember to focus on the story and the character and the players are aware that they should drive the plot themselves.

The second is Weapons of the Gods i mentioned above. Following up on Exalted, is another epic game but in a radically different way. The narrative genre of the game is wuxia and far towards the over the top end of this genre. Expect to see buildings being leapt and fire being breathed on a regular basis in this system. With a flowing, fast-paced system that has a few nice tricks to get you into the spirit of things. It also has an interesting system where the players by plottwist of various sorts, whether it is the discovery that their cousin really has connections to a secret society or that the local governor chokes on a chickenbone, the variety of these is quite large including some really bizarre possibilities. Featuring excellent writing, it depicts a lighthearted version of China during the centuries between the fall of the Han dynasty and the unification by the Sui, taking many liberties along the way. Yet despite the tone and all the liberties taken it also contains surprising amount of knowledge about and respect for traditional Chinese views, further building not only the atmosphere but also the connection to the source material.

The third is Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition. While it is not a truly generic system, it has a much wider set of application than Satyr claims though it does work best for beings vastly more capable than ordinary humans. Wonderfully simple to run once you get started, it still allows for a surprising amount of concepts to be meaningfully played. Strong GM control is needed during character creation, however, which includes setting very clear genre limits and explaining what goes and what doesn't, as well as striking down unbalanced combinations of powers. But once these parts are out of the way it flows well and really can be adapted to a large amount of different stories.

Finally there is WoD. Here i would say that it is simply wrong to treat it as one game. WoD is two clusters of games, the Old World of Darkness and the New World of Darkness. While the rules are similar between games within each cluster, especially nWoD, they are still separate games. While crossovers are possible in nWoD, the basic intention is that the players all belong to the same type of supernatural beings and mostly deal with their specific issues. So for WoD i would recommend looking into at least a few of the different games and seeing if any of them interest you.

My personal favorite among WoD is Changeling: The Lost from nWoD. The rules aren't really very interesting, but the rules are not what WoD is about and unlike oWoD they take up much less time and space allowing you to focus more on the plot. And on the fluff side of thing all i can say is that this is one of the best written systems ever. The writing flows beautifully evoking images and ideas on almost every page, drawing from the rich stock of fairytales, urban legends and mythology of all kinds to create a world of wretched and wondrous beings trying to forgot what they have gone through. And the books are just plain beautiful. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that i have seen no gameline with as beautiful artwork or layout as CtL, it is just stunning throughout it.

From what i have heard Geist: The Sineaters is good too, but i know next to nothing about it. Still it should be worth looking into. And really, i would personally recommend sticking to nWoD. It is easier to get your hands on and the rules are simpled without really sacrificing anything but clunkiness and by and large i just think that it is better written, better edited and looks better. But many people insist on the opposite, except for maybe the appearance of the books, and i have no idea what you will think. Mage: The Ascension from oWoD is the exception though. Not only is it radically different from the new one in what it tries to do, it is also very awesome with its whole concept of consensual reality. That might be worth looking into if you can find the book. Other than that i don't really like oWoD, too clunky rules and too specific on what your character has to be like and who you have to be friends with based on your choice of Clan/Tribe/Tradition/whatever. But again, not everyone agrees with me on this.

[Kiero]

First up, check out this massive list of free RPGs (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/).

FATE 3.0 is well worth a look, available in two free-SRD flavours, Spirit of the Century (http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc_srd.pdf) and Diaspora (http://www2.roleplaying.it/diaspora/diaspora.pdf).

Wushu's Open Reloaded edition (http://www.story-games.at/wushu/open_reloaded.pdf) is also free.

[Jolly Steve]

I think it's impossible to give useful recommendations without more information. Do you want


more or fewer rules than D&D?
More or less built-in setting?
How lethal?
How important is the amount of support material available?
How important is ease of conversion from D&D?
How important is price?
Any particular genre?
Any particular 'tone' (goofy vs grim)?

[MickJay]

Nobody mentioned Call of Cthulhu yet? Fun if you like driving the PCs mad (and the players won't mind having their characters die horribly or become gibbering wrecks. It's all a good fun!).

FATE system, very easy to pick up, offers a lot of flexibility, not suitable for munchkinism, though.

One-Roll Engine (Reign, Godlike, etc), simple system, flexible.

Dark Heresy was mentioned, it's quite fun.

Victoriana, for Victorian+fantasy+steampunkish setting (not much steampunk by default, but that can be changed by GM, of course).

Deadlands, for Weird West, mad scientists, spiritual characters with real powers, magic-users who need to get a good poker hand to make their spells work and an array of "normal" characters. Great setting for those who want a Wild West adventure with a fair amount of supernatural elements and altered history.

Old Vampire or Werewolf, can't say for others. Both Old and New Mage are supposedly fun, too.

Paranoia for one-shots or very short campaigns. Mutual backstabbing, knowing the rules punishable by death and general mayhem.

Qin, for an ancient Chinese+magic+crazy martial arts setting.

[serok42]

I'll throw some recommendations in.

Aces n Eights is an awesome cowboy/wild west game.

West End Games Star Wars is incredibly fun as well.

[Megaduck]

Paranoia for some slapstick fun.

Nobilis if you like deep role-playing. (Note, this game is diceless so you need to trust your DM)

Serenity if you like Firefly.

[Nai_Calus]

If you go with Shadowrun, for the love of all that's holy, get 4th-edition material. 2nd-ed was patchwork and 3rd-ed was sheer junk. 4th is easy to understand and adjudicate, with lots of currently-available supporting material.

I dunno, my Shadowrun experience is from a 3rd edition game set in 2050 and it seemed fine to me. (Also to our DM, who still uses 3rd because he hates 4th.)

I'd probably go nuts trying to play 4E without a year shift, rofl. Too much fluff change. Makes me wonder what my character would be up to these days, assuming he was still alive and hadn't gotten himself killed, though. (Elf from Tir Tairngire, former spoiled rich kid who went full-in for all the usual Tir madness until he found out something he shouldn't have, realised how screwed it all was and left in disgust with dreams of someday getting rid of the council of princes. Man he was fun to play.)

[Kylarra]

Nobody mentioned Call of Cthulhu yet? Fun if you like driving the PCs mad (and the players won't mind having their characters die horribly or become gibbering wrecks. It's all a good fun!).
I mentioned it in passing, albeit not as a recommendation but as a foil. :smalltongue:

[Satyr]

Nobody mentioned Call of Cthulhu yet? Fun if you like driving the PCs mad (and the players won't mind having their characters die horribly or become gibbering wrecks. It's all a good fun!).

CoC is all fun, but I actually start to like Trail of Cthulluh better. Yes, it is a bit like a small siblinjg doing everything the big brother has made to become popular, but I had the impression that the game was generally well thought out, and CoC could have aged a bit better.


If you go with Shadowrun, for the love of all that's holy, get 4th-edition material. 2nd-ed was patchwork and 3rd-ed was sheer junk. 4th is easy to understand and adjudicate, with lots of currently-available supporting material.

That's a bit unfair. 3rd edition isn't bad per se, only the magic system is. I found the cut between 3rd and 4th edition a bit too radical (I liked the older pool system better, and the three dimensional resolution mechanism (number or dice roled, target numbers, number of successes) had more substance to it than the fixed target numbers). And the truly horrible stuff in Shadowrun were the metaplot developments. That stupid comet ruined it pretty good.


FATE 3.0 is well worth a look, available in two free-SRD flavours, Spirit of the Century and Diaspora (http://www2.roleplaying.it/diaspora/diaspora.pdf).

Thanks for the link! I hadn't thought that the day may come, but that's the first game I have seen you recommend that I really like. Do you know how it compares to Burning Empires?

[Ozreth]

I would say go with either World of Darkness or Shadowrun.

[nekomata2]

Thanks for the recommendations so far everyone. I'll have to look at some of these in greater detail with my group.

[Gamerlord]

There are also a metric ton of free RPGs don't forget, I found Risus to be fun, there are also more combat-oriented ones like BRUTAL (http://www.brutalrpg.com/).

[Lycar]

There have already been a few good games mentioned and I would also recommend Spycraft 2.0 if you like the D20 mechanic. Because the way classes and feats are handled works quite well.

No dead levels, feats scale and even bas classes offer enough to make the decision to change to a prestige class a tough one.

If you woul rather a bit more low-(power)level but well-crafted fantasy RPG, may I recommend DSA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye) ?

Lycar

[Emmerask]

Well as always on these kinds of threads I will suggest the dark eye but only if you don´t mind some railroading.
The game mechanics are more on the weak side, but the campaigns (especially Borbarads return) will be the best thing you have ever played (EVER!!) in terms of storyline :smallwink:

/edit Lycar was faster then me it seems and DSA = The Dark Eye

[Satyr]

The problem is, this is a mostly English-speaking forum. It doesn't make that much sense to suggest RPGs in a language that is just not accessible, due to a different language and a lack of a translation.
Nonetheless, there are various adventure modules and campaigns for TDE/DSA which are really, really good. Like Borbarad's Return.

[kjones]

To weigh in on the Shadowrun discussion - I've only played 4th edition, but it's a lot of fun. I really like the setting (cyberpunk dystopia with magic), the mechanics are great (opposed rolls for lots of things, lots of cool combat options, magic is unpredictable and dangerous), and it's skill-based rather than level-based, which means lots of customization in character creation.

The only criticisms I would have are that the Matrix stuff can be confusing (as in, what exactly you can and can't do), character generation can take a long time (depending on how much you like to min/max), and GMs don't get a whole lot of love. For the latter, however, I recommend checking out some good premade missions - here's (http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/) a good source. That's how I got started GMing anyway.

Finally, there's quick-start rules available online for free here (http://www.shadowrun4.com/quickstart/).

Like I said, I've never played 3e (though I'd love to if I had the books) but I'm currently running a 4th edition campaign, and we're having a blast. PM me for details if you're curious or have any questions.

[Bagelz]

I am very suprised at the negativity toward WoD:
first off 3rd edition you must must play on single vampire/werewolf/mage/changeling/demon and don't mix, they don't work well, but had great flavor
the new world of darkness has much better game mechanics, but lacks some of the archetype flavor that older editions have (though i don't think mage lost as much as vamp in the transition). These can work together.

I haven't had a chance to play the new shadowrun, but i've been told its a bit more balanced, as older editions the hacker was the only player involved in computers, the rigger is the only character involved in racing, the streetsamurai and magic users did the combat, and it wasn't very good about sharing the spotlight.

i've heard great things about many of the other systems people have listed, but i personally like WoD.

[Kiero]

Thanks for the link! I hadn't thought that the day may come, but that's the first game I have seen you recommend that I really like. Do you know how it compares to Burning Empires?

I thought Diaspora might be more to your tastes than SotC.

I've never played Burning Empires (Burning Wheel is far too crunchy for my tastes), so I couldn't tell you, I'm afraid.

[Lycar]

The problem is, this is a mostly English-speaking forum. It doesn't make that much sense to suggest RPGs in a language that is just not accessible, due to a different language and a lack of a translation.
Nonetheless, there are various adventure modules and campaigns for TDE/DSA which are really, really good. Like Borbarad's Return.

Ah but they did translate it. Just didn't hunt down a link to any TDE sites.

Hmm, that reminds me: Didn't they put a Pdf of the basic rules on the game DVD for Drakensang? I wonder if they did it abroad too.

Does any of you happen to know anything about this?

Lycar

[Satyr]

Ah but they did translate it. Just didn't hunt down a link to any TDE sites.

No. Not really.
The Core Box was translated, but that's just the basic rules which you effectively don't nedd to play once you got the real rules (just for comparison: These are 250 pages. This is one big game). They also translated thee Geographia, and one or two adventures, but picked at least one of the really bad ones (Over the Griffin's Pass, as far as I know). The interesting stuff - the Wege des... book (the actual rules), most of the cool and interesting adventures (which is the system's real strength) were never made, and the whole TDE project was abandoned pretty soon.
I guess that without the nostalgia bonus the game has in Germany, the pretty bad rules (and to be honest: the rules are terrible) and the vast concurrence to D&D in the same genre, the game didn't sell very well. It was one big investment failure and one of the reasons why Fanpro had to sell the line.
I regularly play the game, despite all its problems, because in a way, it's home. And I like the truly unmatched degree of details in the world- it is probably the best described fantasy setting in the world.

[Emmerask]

Okay if they haven´t translated the good adventures and source books then there is really no reason to play it :smallmad: A shame really :smalleek:

[lesser_minion]

NWoD is better for new players than almost any other WW product. It's also generally much better written than its predecessor, and the rules are a massive improvement.

Exalted would be worth going for, but for the same effort it takes to learn, you could probably nail some fairly advanced mathematics.

I haven't tried DSA, translated or otherwise.

Normally, I'd be wary of trusting Ron Edward's opinion on anything, but The Riddle of Steel actually does seem to have good points.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay may be worth a try if you can one of the older editions. I don't have especially high expectations of the latest one.

Witchcraft is also a good option, and very easy to work with.

Ars Magica is also very good. If possible, try to get a copy of 5th edition instead of sticking to the free download, since it is incrediby good.

Bear in mind that a lot of non-D&D systems complicate character creation a lot - generally to the point where you may have to devote a whole session to it. If you already play like that, then clearly there isn't a problem, but otherwise, it's worth bearing in mind.

[kjones]

Bear in mind that a lot of non-D&D systems complicate character creation a lot - generally to the point where you may have to devote a whole session to it. If you already play like that, then clearly there isn't a problem, but otherwise, it's worth bearing in mind.

And D&D character creation is simple? Making 1st-level, core-only characters is fairly easy. Add anything else, and it gets a lot harder (and more time-consuming).

I'm not saying that your assertion about other systems is false - but D&D 3.5 does not have simple character generation, not by a long shot.

[Tinydwarfman]

GURPS. It does everything your system does, except better. :smalltongue:Well, for most things anyway. But really, if you don't mind some complicated and harsh (at first) rules, then GURPS will do any kind of campaign you want. The character creation is complicated, but you can build the exact character you want, down to the little details. My friend who doesn't even play RPGs keeps pestering me to build the main characters for his story ideas in GURPS. :smallbiggrin:

[lesser_minion]

And D&D character creation is simple? Making 1st-level, core-only characters is fairly easy. Add anything else, and it gets a lot harder (and more time-consuming).

I'm not saying that your assertion about other systems is false - but D&D 3.5 does not have simple character generation, not by a long shot.

Low-level characters are basically a case of roll stats, pick class and race, pick skills, pick feat, pick spells, pick gear.

[Joel Shempert]

I love talking about my favorite games, but I'm not super-comfortable recommending anything without knowing what you're looking for. Nekomata, what do you want in a game experience, setting-wise, playstile-wise, or rule-wise?

Peace,
-Joel

[pasko77]

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay may be worth a try if you can one of the older editions. I don't have especially high expectations of the latest one.


I was about to suggesting WFRP.
For the 3rd edition issue, expect my recension shortly. I already studied the manuals, and DMing a first mini-campaign . As soon as we finish it, i'll post my impressions.
Anyway, it's much better than what i feared.

[Thames]

Fantasy Craft

is one that has been recommended to me - i have thus far seen fit to order a copy for me and my friend (2 copies total); everyone I've spoken to or posted on it liked it so thats why im trying it

[Katana_Geldar]

Star Wars Saga Edition, if you want to play Star Wars that is. Kinda like how 4E would be if everything worked really well.

[hamishspence]

Maybe using Saga as a basis, you can have D&D-ish gaming, without actually using D&D rules.

A sort of "alternative to Pathfinder" so to speak- 3.75, rather than 3.5 ed or 4th ed.

might depend on if the players want a "D&D-ish game without D&D rules"

[kjones]

Low-level characters are basically a case of roll stats, pick class and race, pick skills, pick feat, pick spells, pick gear.

Which is exactly what I said. However, once you go outside of core, or start at a level above 1st, these things all become much more difficult and time consuming.

And lots of people don't start at first level - possibly even a majority. Even starting at second or third level, your options multiply quickly. (Particularly equipment, if you allow for WBL to start.)

[GolemsVoice]

Unhallowed Metropolis! (http://www.hallowsevedesigns.com/unmet.html)

Set about 200 years after a zombie apocalypse in a besieged world that has turned to the victorian glory of old as their unchaning status quo, you get a mad mix of Shelley, Poe, Lovecraft, everyone's favourite zombie movies. Add in some League of the Extraordinary Gentleman and a good dose of Mad Science, and enter the Unhallowed Metropolis.

[IonDragon]

Universal Decay (http://daemoneye.net/universaldecay.html) the Dead Stars Primer is light quick start rules (and free!), but it's a rather rules heavy system great for SciFi games, or modern settings. My favorite system for non D&D settings.

[Yora]

Star Wars Saga Edition, if you want to play Star Wars that is. Kinda like how 4E would be if everything worked really well.
I agree. It's really a great game, but I think it probably works best with adventures that focus on fast paced stories and cinematic action. Character creation and leveling up is much simpler and faster than in 3.5e or d20 modern and combat has been very much steamlined and characters don't die that easily by mistake.
It's faster and easier and doesn't bother that much with lots of things than other d20 games do. If you want to charge down a hallway screaming and firing an automatic gun or jump on a tank and throw grenades through the hatch, this is the game I chose! It's great for fast paced and cinematic actions. For games like Star Wars! :smallbiggrin:
But I think it also works very well with other action movie style games. For example StarCraft or Half-Life games.
It's the same reason why I prefer D&D over other fantasy RPGs. Compared to others I've been shown, 3.5e is so very simple in concept. It only gets really complicated if you drastically increase the number of options you can pick from.

But I don'r think I would like to play it for a slower paced and complex fantasy game. I think in such games I'd prefer to be able to train my character into different skills and have the option to learn spells or special attack techniques from a very wide selection. But if you want a character like Han Solo or duels like Obi-Wann vs. Jango Fett, play Saga!!!

[Dilvish]

Kenzerco's Hackmaster 5.0, available now in the Hackmaster Basic rulebook and the Frandor's Keep campaign adventure. Even if you aren't interested in the Hackmaster system itself, Frandor's Keep is worth getting. 140 pages of mostly non-system specific setting, encounters, and NPCs. Kenzerco's own take on the classic Keep on the Borderlands.

I am biased in that I am one of the Hackmaster 5.0 playtesters. Combat is gritty and unpredictable, with opposed die rolls for attack and defense. Armor makes you easier to hit, but harder to damage. The different races have differences that you really can see in combat as well as non-combat situations.

Detailed character creation can take a good amount of time, especially if you are unfamilar with the rules. There are quick start creation rules in the beginning of the book though.

I will also second Aces and Eights, if you are into westerns or just that time period.

[Knaight]

Tossing in my support for Ars Magica as well, because it is at least worth looking at and available free online, although it is one edition behind. Even if you don't play it, there are a lot of concepts ripe for theft.

As the resident Fudge nerd of this forum, I'm tossing that in as well. However, some quick notes on that.

Fate 2.0 is based off of Fudge heavily, Fate 3.0 is still very similar in a lot of ways. Ultimately, Fudge is behind Spirit of the Century and Diaspora as well.

Its a generic system, in the true sense of the word. Like GURPS it does everything well, unlike GURPS it is basically a template and you have control over everything. What attributes, the breadth of skills, etc.

There is a huge variety in levels of complexity. You can run a very basic, Risusesque game, or you can run a GURPSesque game, it handles them all well. Furthermore, due to logarithmic skill and attribute levels, it scales up very well. A fight between two giants and two humans could be identical numerically, although that goes away as soon as one does something the other can't (Giants are going to have a tough time finding concealment). The mechanic for things scaling is brilliant.

Its fairly easy to learn. You can start of simple and build up easily, everything is very clear (For instance, the skills and attributes are on a 0 centered scale, so you don't need to remember correlations between skill/attribute check difficulty and skill/attribute level, and the levels are named and fairly self explanatory.

The big flaw people always whine about, the mere 9 different levels for attributes and skills, is more than enough to cover things as they are clearly seen anyways. At a glance people can only see so many gradients of skill anyways, and the level of abstraction is much lower than it seems simply because it gets close to that level of abstraction due to the quantization of abilities in the human mind. Besides, this is incredibly easy to tweak in numerous ways.

I will personally help you do whatever you want to do, and do show up fairly frequently on the forum and respond quickly to PMs most of the time. And I can help you find pre made stuff as well. Blood Sweat and Steel is a good swords and sorcery one for instance, and a good transition away from D&D.

[absolmorph]

Exalted would be worth going for, but for the same effort it takes to learn, you could probably nail some fairly advanced mathematics.
I didn't have any trouble with learning it. I just had to read the character creation bit a few times. Well, skim it, really.
Plus, it's an awesome game. Seriously, one of the game mechanics is rewarding really cool actions (which is part of why it's great for PbP; more time to come up with descriptions).

[Tyrrell]

Ars Magica is in my opinion the best role playing game available, by best I mean best for running a long involved game where the players have dozens of sessions to really immerse themselves in the rules and the story.

If that's not your cup of tea there's lots of stuff out there in fact asking for good non-D&D RPG's is a little like asking for suggestions for good foods that aren't bacon. There are worlds and worlds of foods out there that aren't bacon (mmmm bacon:smallbiggrin:) it's tough to know where to start.

I think that Riddle of Steel may be the best one shot game around (OK it's not so readily around theses days but it's good none the less).

Paranoia I've always had a blast with and I don't know anyone who has ever used the same characters twice.

If you've got a several sessions to play with

Exalted is a blast, if you can get the right mood, (it's about the same weight rules-wise as D&D 4, just a bit lighter than D&D 3.5)

Legend of the five Rings I've loved to death (I've only played 1rst edition)

If you've got folks who can use game mechanics to create beautiful pieces of rules art Hero system will provide them a palette of character creation tools beyond compare.

And if you are looking for a game to sink years into telling the greatest story in the history of fiction there is no game that comes close to Ars Magica (In my opinion of course.... but I'm so right:smalltongue:)

And then there are the 12,000 or so games I didn't mention, perhaps one of them will strike your fancy. Check out the list here: http://index.rpg.net/