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RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-25, 09:04 AM
So I'm in a pathfinder game and my character just died... looking to make a new one..I have a few questions for those who play pathfinder alot...

Are martial trippers still any good?

For a witch where are that stats for a pig or goat? Can a small creature ride them?

Has the monk gotten any better?

We are at level 3. PF books only(basicaly core only).

My characters so far im debating between is(in no particular order):
gnome summoner
goblin/gnome witch(prefer goblin but if not allowed gonna go gnome)
a human monk(focusing on deliverying stunning blow)

I know we are doing some of the pathfinder modules... specifically some kinda god/mask/cult thing... i don't remember the moduales name but the ult group is all about being masked.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-25, 09:09 AM
So I'm in a pathfinder game and my character just died... looking to make a new one..I have a few questions for those who play pathfinder alot...

Are martial trippers still any good?

You can make them good. The trip mechanism has changed a bit, and some of the feats have been broken apart(cant recall for trip), but the additional feats help.


For a witch where are that stats for a pig or goat? Can a small creature ride them?

I would presume beastiary, and yes. I would assume they are not battle trained, though.


Has the monk gotten any better?

Not really. The few things they've gotten are vastly outstripped by what better classes have gotten. They're still pretty low on the power curve.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-25, 09:11 AM
You can make them good. The trip mechanism has changed a bit, and some of the feats have been broken apart(cant recall for trip), but the additional feats help.
Ya i saw that on the srd which kinda blows...



I would presume beastiary, and yes. I would assume they are not battle trained, though.
They are not I've checked...




Not really. The few things they've gotten are vastly outstripped by what better classes have gotten. They're still pretty low on the power curve.

On par with a fighter now or no?

BobVosh
2010-01-25, 09:13 AM
Ya i saw that on the srd which kinda blows...
Meh, its not exactly bad.


They are not I've checked...
They aren't stated as far as I can tell...for some reason


On par with a fighter now or no?
No.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-25, 09:15 AM
Ya i saw that on the srd which kinda blows...

It's kinda meh imo. I understand why they did it, but Im not convinced it was a great change. It can be made to work, tho.


They are not I've checked...

Well, thats annoying then. I'd probably refluff a dog or similar and use it's stats.


On par with a fighter now or no?

Nope. The fighter got more/better stuff than the monk, imo. Ditto for barbarian.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-25, 09:18 AM
How does a witch/ summoner compaire to other casters...

Kabump
2010-01-25, 09:46 AM
The monk is better overall than he was in 3.5, thats for sure. Yes, you are not as good as a fighter at pure melee, but you can have some fun doing a CMB build with them. Im currently playing a dwarf grapple monk in the Council of Thieves AP, and we are low levels but its working extremely well so far. I take em down and let my teammates finish them off. Again, going pure fighter with all the feats you can probably build something better, but id say the monk can hold up pretty decently. So if you want to make an optimized tripper, go fighter, but the monk still has a bunch of fun, IMO, flavor abilities you wouldnt get with a fighter. But ive always been a hopeless monk addict, the key is realizing what you CAN do well as a monk and focusing on that. Plus FoB is no longer flurry of misses, as you essentially get a full BAB for your FoB now, and you can work in your stunning fists, trips and grapples in there. And the barbarian in PRPG im still out on the fence about, havent played one but from all ive read on their boards the class might have taken a few steps back.

No clue about the witch, but my gut reaction and reading the playtests on the PRPG forums is that she can be pretty good, good spell list and the hexes have potential. Id put it behind the summoner in terms of power of the new classes.

Person_Man
2010-01-25, 12:26 PM
If you want a Trip machine in a Pathfinder game, you have to deal with several realities:
1) Expansion has been seriously nerfed, because of the changes to size bonuses.
2) Smaller creatures are now much harder to Trip because of the changes to size bonuses and the addition of Dexterity (which smaller size grants a bonus to) to your combat defense.
3) Conversely, bigger creatures are now relatively easier to Trip because of the changes to size bonuses.
4) As several people have mentioned, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip is now Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Greater Trip for the same benefits.
5) Other 3.5 Trip related material is now comparatively stronger. Factotum (Int to Str), Marshal (Cha to Str),various soulmelds (essentia * 2 to Str, free Trip with Bite attack), Knock-Down (free Trip with 10+ damage), Ritiik (exotic weapon from Frostburn, Reflex Save or Trip on hit), etc.
6) Debuffs to your enemy's Str and Dex are now relatively more important. And they're still just as easy to pull of (nets, poison, spells, auras, etc).
7) If you intelligently optimize your ability to Trip, you're now also good at Disarm and Sunder, whereas previously that was not the case.

My suggestion is that you ask your DM if you can play a Totemist. If that's not possible, then I'd actually go with Paladin (which is the best non-caster Pathfinder class) and tag team with your mount. Either way, I would buy nets and a Ritiik, take Knock-Down, and do everything you can to boost your Str.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-25, 12:30 PM
well then .... seems like a tripper is out...


now its down to a witch or monk... mabye a summoner.

olelia
2010-01-25, 12:52 PM
If you want a Trip machine in a Pathfinder game, you have to deal with several realities:

4) As several people have mentioned, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip is now Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Greater Trip for the same benefits.




You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.

Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

Normal: Creatures do not provoke attacks of opportunity from being tripped.


Same bonus but you get the added kicker of forcing provokes for you other melee types to go stabby stabby.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-25, 02:13 PM
The monk is better overall than he was in 3.5, thats for sure. Yes, you are not as good as a fighter at pure melee, but you can have some fun doing a CMB build with them.

This is deceptive. They boosted most of the classes in PF, which tends to make players of the weak classes announce that they're stronger now.

Sure, the PF monk is better than the 3.5 monk, but that matters relatively little when the PF wizard has also been improved comparatively. Fighters gain some nice things, barbs get rage powers...all racers are stronger. Basically, PF dialed up the overall power level.

Person_Man
2010-01-25, 02:41 PM
Same bonus but you get the added kicker of forcing provokes for you other melee types to go stabby stabby.

Nice catch, I hadn't noticed that. I guess Animate Objects and all the other Summon spells have suddenly became more powerful. I wonder if that was an intentional power up, or if they were just trying to streamline things by removing the poorly worded "as if you hadn't attacked" thing from Improved Trip.

Another_Poet
2010-01-25, 03:22 PM
pig or goat? Can a small creature ride them?

Yes, as both creatures would probably qualify as Medium. (the pig might be Small depending on breed, in which case only a Tiny creature or smaller could ride it).

Consider getting a riding dog instead; it gets a free Trip attack every time it hits with a bite, very similar to your vaporators monks in most respects.

Yakk
2010-01-25, 03:28 PM
4) As several people have mentioned, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip is now Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Greater Trip for the same benefits.
The same numerical benefits to a different mechanical system. Which makes a difference.

In 3e, it was an opposed roll -- in 3p, it is against a static target number.

+4 on an opposed roll is about as good as +3 against a static target number. (feel free to run the probabilities if you don't trust me -- the multiplier is roughly sqrt(2) between the two).

With each feat granting +2, you end up with +4 against a static target number: which is an upgrade over 3e trip, after you get 3 instead of 2 feats. At 2 feats, you are worse off, admittedly. +4 to a static target number is worth about the same as +5 to +6 against an opposed roll.

Akal Saris
2010-01-25, 03:32 PM
I'd go with witch if I were you. Summoner looks to be like a lot of fun to me, but it's also a ton of book-keeping, and no offense, but you don't strike me as the kind of player that would enjoy keeping track of the stats of 5 different summons (at 3rd level), plus his character, plus his eidolon.

In terms of power level, summoner is probably better than witch at low levels, and then at some point in the mid-levels they probably switch once the witch has enough spells to cast every round and she's casting 6th level spells when the summoner hits 4th level spells or whatever.

One of my PCs is currently playing a lvl 3 witch. He's enjoying it, though it's not ESPECIALLY different from any other full caster. He's got a viper familiar.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-25, 03:38 PM
I'd go with witch if I were you. Summoner looks to be like a lot of fun to me, but it's also a ton of book-keeping, and no offense, but you don't strike me as the kind of player that would enjoy keeping track of the stats of 5 different summons (at 3rd level), plus his character, plus his eidolon.

In terms of power level, summoner is probably better than witch at low levels, and then at some point in the mid-levels they probably switch once the witch has enough spells to cast every round and she's casting 6th level spells when the summoner hits 4th level spells or whatever.

One of my PCs is currently playing a lvl 3 witch. He's enjoying it, though it's not ESPECIALLY different from any other full caster. He's got a viper familiar.

I love book keeping... One reason i love casters so much
some examples
My spirit shaman (lvl 6) i have 12 different "spell lists" depending on mood day and need.
I have a 12th level conjurer/malconvoker in a FR game i play once and a great while..
I loved in 2nd ed how we got to crunch thaco... :)
book keeping is no problem.
Though i have to admit book keeping for the GM is a pain in the Ass as he is newer gm.

Why would you think i not like book keeping?

Kabump
2010-01-25, 04:28 PM
This is deceptive. They boosted most of the classes in PF, which tends to make players of the weak classes announce that they're stronger now.

Sure, the PF monk is better than the 3.5 monk, but that matters relatively little when the PF wizard has also been improved comparatively. Fighters gain some nice things, barbs get rage powers...all racers are stronger. Basically, PF dialed up the overall power level.

/sigh Thats a very good point, and one I cant argue against. Im just a hopeless monk lover, so I tend to overlook the obvious faults with the class.