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View Full Version : What would You Do? (Bad 3.5 Paladin choices)



McClintock
2010-01-25, 01:07 PM
Shackled City SPOILER ALERT!!

Shackled City: Volcano Errupting Chapter

Party Make-up:
1. LG Hu, Cleric of Cuthbert/Sacred Exorcist
2. LG Hu, VoP Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist (Ruler of Occipitus)
3. NG Hu, Warlock
4. N Whisper Gn, Ranger/Rogue/Swashbuckler
5. LG Dw, Paladin/Saint of Moradin

Quick catch up, we saved many towns people, killed the demodands that were "raining down", Killed the big demodand and his summoned friends, Killed the Morkoth and his Vrocks (barely), Presently we are fighting Hookface, we brings me to the opinion portion of this post.

In the first round of battle with Hookface, the cleric was very hurt, failed her save and dies to a breath weapon. The remaining party members take damage, except the warlock, survive and scatter. Everyone has either fly or airwalk, everyone. The dragon proceeds to dive through the party, snatching the warlock and fly high into the air. Breath, Kill, Realease, with the intention to repeat.

At this point, the warlock and the cleric are dead, and the rest of the party decide to attempt to keep the dragon's attention by provoking it. After a couple of rounds of circling the dragon comes back and starts engaging the party in melee. The monk flies up and engages the dragon, the gnome starts trying to pepper it with arrows, and the paladin dwarf hides.

The gnome cannot penetrate the armor, the cleric has been raised and is casting spells to weaken the dragon, the monk goes toe to toe for 2 rounds, then has to withdraw. The paladin continues to hide, but hurls insults that are doing nothing. The dragon retreats and starts healing and recasting spells on himself. The monk heals and the cleric heals. The party is split-up but close and the paladin finally comes out of hiding, to no true affect.

We had to end there for the night and will pick up at the top of the round. The party is down one person, running low on spells, and running out of options. We're pretty sure we can defeat this dragon, but are ready to get out if need be.

Here's the question, whether or not we actually kill the dragon: What should happen to the dwarf?

Optimystik
2010-01-25, 01:17 PM
Some Paladin! I didn't know they qualified for the Craven feat.

What happens to him probably should wait until after the dragon is take care of; he may yet redeem himself.

sofawall
2010-01-25, 01:17 PM
If it's a spoiler, please say what it is a spoiler of. For example, that could be a spoiler of anything from RHoD to Borderlands, I just don't know. Therefore, I don't open it, even if I have no itention of ever seeing/playing/whatevering the thing in that spoiler.

Optimystik
2010-01-25, 01:19 PM
I think he just spoilered it to make all the text manageable (and make his question stand out.)

Forever Curious
2010-01-25, 01:20 PM
Some Paladin! I didn't know they qualified for the Craven feat.

What happens to him probably should wait until after the dragon is take care of; he may yet redeem himself.

I second this opinion.

McClintock
2010-01-25, 01:23 PM
Spoiler Alert Changed, sorry about that.

And some of us talked about it after the night was over, we're hoping the DM lays the smack down. The character "CHOSE" to be a saint and it has never sat well with the DM

He slipped the saint template passed a very personally busy DM

Myou
2010-01-25, 01:26 PM
I'd say he should fall, and have to atone with help from the cleric. A 'saint' certainly can't hide while his friends are dying.

Eurus
2010-01-25, 01:31 PM
The Saint template has even worse behavior restrictions than the Paladin (and sometimes the two even contradict). But running and hiding while the rest of the party gets picked off one by one completely violates both. Saints are supposed to always do good, even if it means martyrdom -- leaving your friends to their deaths is definitely not Good. Paladins are expected to be fearless -- since he obviously wasn't doing anything helpful by hiding, he should have come out and fought regardless of any fear for his own life.

It's still possible that he might redeem himself, but if I were Moradin, I'd probably be having a few choice words with him...

Kallisti
2010-01-25, 01:35 PM
He falls. He falls and falls hard. Saint is an extremely powerful template. You can't just snag it and hope to get around the rules for how a Saint behaves. The name "Saint" should have tipped him off about that.

On the other hand, I hear the folks Down Below are offering a Red Light special on black armor, which is traditional for Blackguards...

Kylarra
2010-01-25, 01:43 PM
Yeah, I'd say he falls hard from sainthood.

He's probably fine Paladin-wise.

IonDragon
2010-01-25, 01:45 PM
From what was in the spoiler it sounds like the decided on tactic was to taunt the dragon down from the air. So, he could have simply been following that idea and trying to save the party by getting the dragon to go for him. Maybe he's just stupid? Stupidity can't be grounds for falling or there would never be any paladins in the first place. On the other hand, maybe he had a good idea. Cover is great against dragon's breath if you don't have evasion. If his taunts would have worked, and the dragon would have gone for him it would have been the best possible scenario.

Were I running the game, it would really depend on how the RP went.

Sanguine
2010-01-25, 01:49 PM
Saint-hood: Definitely a fall.

Paladin-hood: I can see a fall but I can also see him retaining it.

huttj509
2010-01-25, 01:55 PM
Pertinent quote from Exalted deeds, depending on the situation may not have been able to take the template.


In order to qualify for sainthood, a character must meet the following qualifications, plus any additional requirements set by the DM:

Must be of good alignment.
Must have at least three exalted feats.
Must never have lost the benefits of exalted feats or class abilities because of committing evil acts, even if the character properly atoned.
Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path described in this book.
Must be at least 6th level.
Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his life) for the good of another.

A character who meets these criteria and achieves this pinnacle of sanctification can acquire the saint template at the DM's discretion. Upon acquiring the template the character sacrifices her next two levels of advancement in order to "catch up" with the (artificially low) level adjustment of the template.

A) depending on level, the paladin should be a couple class levels behind the rest (not if he just took the template tho).

b) The bolded part gives the DM an automatic smackdown. He hides, then hurls insults. Doesn't cast anything, doesn't help get someone else behind cover. If he were calling for the party to retreat I'd be more lenient, that'd be a case of being in over your heads or so. But just trying to protect himself while his fellows are out there going toe to toe with the big scaly? Prob. wouldn't lose exalted feats (depending on which they are), but I'd smackdown the saint template.

You can have a borderline paladin who wrestles with inner demons, struggles with the code, stumbles occasionally, etc. A saint has already gotten past that.

Edit: Whether I removed it or just gave him a warning that his behavior was not considered saintly would depend on his prior behavior, and whether he seemed to be attempting to take up the roleplay requirements of being a saint, or if he had just taken it for power. BOED material is explicitly not supposed to be divorced from the 'fluff'.

Longcat
2010-01-25, 02:00 PM
I'd say the warlock should fall, since warlocks can't be NG in 3.5

That said, whether or not the Paladin falls is entirely up to DM fiat. Nothing in the Saint description says anything against retreating from a loosing battle.

Optimystik
2010-01-25, 02:18 PM
I'd say the warlock should fall, since warlocks can't be NG in 3.5

That said, whether or not the Paladin falls is entirely up to DM fiat. Nothing in the Saint description says anything against retreating from a loosing battle.

Retreating is one thing, but letting your companions get smacked on while you cower behind a pee-stained rock is quite another.

Douglas
2010-01-25, 02:27 PM
Unless he was absolutely convinced the fight was hopeless and was calling for the whole party to retreat, that was not Paladin behavior and most definitely not Exalted or Saintly behavior. If he were attempting to get the rest of the party to retreat as well, I'd chalk it up to a failed attempt at a tactic the rest of the party rejected. In that case, ignore my second paragraph. If he made no attempt to coordinate this action with the party, then he deserves a DM smackdown.

I'd say he has exactly one chance to redeem himself, that being the remainder of this battle. If he doesn't redeem himself promptly, then there go his Exalted feats and there goes Saint. He might also fall as a Paladin depending on how extreme his cowardice was and how the DM feels about it. If the DM decides he's violated his Paladin code, then that part of his fall can be reversed by Atonement if he is suitably repentant, and possibly after performing a quest of some sort. Exalted and Saint are irrevocably gone forever, though. The Book of Exalted Deeds is quite explicit that blowing Exalted status once is permanent with no possible reversal.

hamishspence
2010-01-25, 02:33 PM
Saint status, yes. Exalted status, no- in the "players falling" section it states even if players fall, the gods are forgiving, and if the players truly atone, they can get their exalted feats back.

A saint who falls though, can't gain the Saint template back.

And in the Saint section it says "a person who has lost their exalted feats through evil acts, even if they get them back, cannot become a Saint"

Making it clear you can regain exalted status if it is lost.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-25, 04:21 PM
I see nothing that merits falling.

I say he keeps them, but gets an avatar of his god to fuss him out.

hamishspence
2010-01-25, 04:32 PM
Not helping your allies in the face of a serious threat to them, might fall under "gross violation of the code" whether it's evil, chaotic, or neither.

When fighting "needs to be done" so to speak, the paladin shouldn't be hiding behind a rock yelling insults.

arguskos
2010-01-25, 04:38 PM
Reading this, my knee-jerk is "Pally falls, loses Saint, and an Aspect of Moradin comes to explain things to him after the battle is over."

However, thinking about it further, the party decided to hurl insults at the dragon and try to draw it's attention. The only one who stuck to that plan is the Paladin. Of course, hiding like a pansy behind a rock isn't exactly a Good thing to be doing, but perhaps the Paladin was really trying to draw attention to himself with his insults and challenges. It just didn't work.

Likely, the best course of action is that after the fight, an Aspect of Moradin comes down, explains things to the Paladin, and says "Your intentions were Good, but your actions were not. You have one final chance to live up to my expectations. Should this happen again, you will be stripped for your Paladinhood, Sainthood, and your Exalted status." This gives the player a good IC warning while accepting they were likely trying to help some.

Of course, if the player was saying "yeah, I'm gonna survive!" at the table... ooookay, then he gets bitchslapped and falls pretty hard. If they really thought it was a good plan and they were helping, then give them the divine warning.

Glass Mouse
2010-01-25, 04:53 PM
Hm. I'd say the paladin status could be saved by some fast-talking: "Really, it's for the world's greater good that I live - dying in a hopeless fight is neither noble nor good!" is a classic for a reason.
If the paladin fails to justify her actions in any way, well, bye bye pally-hood.

The saint thing... I never got any further than the fluff section of BoED before I decided to throw it away, so I've got no definite answer to that.
I guess it'd depend on the character's explanation. And Moradin would chew her out in any case.

hamishspence
2010-01-25, 04:58 PM
The saint thing... I never got any further than the fluff section of BoED before I decided to throw it away, so I've got no definite answer to that.

I thought the fluff was passable- it was the crunch that tended to be problematic. Poisons/diseases evil, ravages/afflications good, etc.

Forgiveness/mercy being associated with Good, several of the LG archon lords being dedicated foes of tyranny, LG and CG celestials not being enemies, but just having philosophical differences, etc. all seemed a decided improvement on the pre-BoED idea of LG and CG being almost as opposed as LE and CE.

Optimystik
2010-01-25, 05:04 PM
I thought the fluff was passable- it was the crunch that tended to be problematic. Poisons/diseases evil, ravages/afflications good, etc.


This, and don't get me started with the mechanical problems with PrCs. Apostle of Peace needs a holy symbol for all its spells, yet has VoP; Slayer of Domiel has Deathwatch on its list, An Aleax can walk through a Prismatic Wall to reach its target, etc.

The fluff was an excellent addition to D&D, but I think they were all tired out from debating when it came time to playtest. :smallsigh:

Nero24200
2010-01-25, 05:18 PM
It seems a bit of a stretch to make the paladin fall, but if I was the DM I'd let the player know OOC that it's a slippery slope.

I wouldn't necciserily say it was bad to do what he did, but it was cowardly, something a paladin plain shouldn't be. What's more, paladin's are immune to fear effects, so the paladin should be the closest one there to a rational thinker when in such a dangerous situation, and it only takes a moment or two of thinking to realise "Maybe my allies stand a better chance if I'm there to help". He can't use "but I was scared" or "I panicked" as an excuse.

Hawriel
2010-01-25, 05:38 PM
The dragon was flying. How was the paladin supposed to attack if he didnt have a ranged weapon?

The OP said the paladin was yelling insults. At who, the dragon, the players, the characters?

If the paladin was yelling at the dragon how can he hide? If all the paladin could do was verbaly taunt the dragon what els do you expect of him?

Optimystik
2010-01-25, 05:40 PM
The dragon was flying. How was the paladin supposed to attack if he didnt have a ranged weapon?


Everyone has either fly or airwalk, everyone.

So I hear reading posts helps.

Grumman
2010-01-25, 05:43 PM
The dragon was flying. How was the paladin supposed to attack if he didnt have a ranged weapon?
He said everyone can fly, with emphasis on the "everyone".

Susano-wo
2010-01-25, 06:42 PM
Also the Dragon eventually came down and engaged in Melee.
As far as falling, I would say a lo of it depends on the motivations. Probably would not lose exalted feats, though perhaps Saint aspects turned off, so to speak, until he had learned a lesson about bravery and sacrifice. :P
again, though it all depends.

Hawriel
2010-01-25, 06:44 PM
So I hear reading posts helps.

Oh look insult big suprise on this boards

McClintock
2010-01-25, 07:42 PM
the "saint" in question was an 8th level pencil whipped paladin/fighter who NEVER did anything even close to saintly to deserve the template. He chose to take it and flew it under the dms radAr when he was buzy dealing with RL. Our group meets once a week and the DM is a very busy family man outside of the group. He gives us as much time as he can but sometimes he is stretched to his limits.

This is not the first time he has been less than holy. He has exuded greed and selfishness many times in the past. I should have mentioned this is just one more stupid choice on his part in a long line of bad choices.

One last thing, the party didnt get a chance to formulate a plan, everything happened VERY FAST. My cleric was down to 50 HP when the dragon attacked and I didnt even have 1 round with which to cast healing spells. Furthermore his choice to hurl insults was just that, his choice. I was hurt, the warlok was trapped in its mouth after one round and the rogue and monk were split off from the rest of us.

He had an idea that started out good, but when it didnt work, he didnt evolve the plan. Even after the DM hinted and then plainly told him it was not working.

Douglas
2010-01-25, 07:55 PM
He has exuded greed and selfishness many times in the past. I should have mentioned this is just one more stupid choice on his part in a long line of bad choices.
In that case, he should have lost Saint and his Exalted feats long ago.

Grumman
2010-01-25, 08:07 PM
He should have tried to save the warlock, or at least tried to keep the others alive too if the situation looked impossible to salvage.

I say he falls from being a Paladin, falls from being a Saint, Moradin declares him an Un-Dwarf and the player gets kicked from the game.

erikun
2010-01-25, 08:35 PM
Well, you should probably detail the Paladin's oaths. As it stands, being a ***** coward doesn't break any of his Paladin oaths, outside of possibly helping those in need. (Note that "helping those in need" does not mean "jumping in front of something that will instantly kill you".) From the sounds of things, the Paladin didn't start hiding until after two party members were dead, along with everyone else, and his greatest sin was not attacking the dragon after the monk nearly died again.

He might suffer reprocussions from his deity for his cowardice, but I don't see a direct violation of his Paladin oaths.

Being a whiny little chicken does not conflict with the LG alignment.

I'm not sure about the Exalted or Saint templates, so cannot say if he falls from those or not.

juggalotis
2010-01-25, 08:42 PM
well unless im mistaken moradin is also in the sphere of protection. as i dm i would have gave him reprecussions due to not protectecting the barty to get to safty. he could have engaged "with" the monk against the dragon long enough for the others to get to safety.

Susano-wo
2010-01-25, 09:12 PM
Oh.
Well.
Given the OP's clarification. Yeah. HE should fall. And you should have an OOC talk with the player. Explain that he isn't roleplaying, and that RP is expected in your group. So he should make characters he wants to roleplay, and if he wants to be a coward/self serving kinda character, then Roll one of those, not a Saint Paladin, which, of all the things he could be under that title, what he is isn't. ^ ^
(oh, especially when playing a class/template that has power essentially derived from an RP agreement :D)

absolmorph
2010-01-25, 10:14 PM
Okay, a player being greedy as a Paladin. That's bad enough. Then he ran and hid when a dragon attacked, while the monk and rogue (THE SPOONING ROGUE!) stayed to fight it? He should fall.
But as a SAINT?! Dude, he should have lost that already. And, as has been stated, had someone explain that when a class or template has rules that you have to follow at the risk of losing them, they have to follow them or they lose the class/templates benefits. And RP is one of the biggest parts of that.
Really, it's bad RP. Talk to him about what kind of character he wants to play (personality-wise) and work something out. If necessary, have some explanation of how the Paladin went off to meditate and become a better person and then have him make a new character he enjoys playing and RPing as.

Callista
2010-01-25, 10:48 PM
Yeah, at first I was hoping the guy was playing the paladin that way because he wanted a flawed character and/or was hoping to play out a redemption arc, in which case more power to him and get the DM on board; but it seems that the player's just bad at RP. Apparently some people don't seem to realize that a character's not just a bundle of stats; they're supposed to be fairly detailed fictional people. There's just something really jarring about a guy who's supposed to be a paladin acting that way. Makes your brain want to go, "DOES NOT COMPUTE." Because it doesn't. How does a guy who gets his powers from loyalty and courage randomly go running scared from something that's hurting his friends, instead of trying to drag said friends to safety? And seriously, what's with people playing a role-playing game when they don't want to role-play?

Coidzor
2010-01-26, 12:15 AM
...How bizarre.

Optimystik
2010-01-26, 12:29 AM
I say he falls from being a Paladin, falls from being a Saint, Moradin declares him an Un-Dwarf and the player gets kicked from the game.

And then you pee on his character sheet.
And slash his tires so he can't go home.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

Coidzor
2010-01-26, 12:35 AM
And then you pee on his character sheet.
And slash his tires so he can't go home.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

Don't forget to skin and eat his cat!

DSCrankshaw
2010-01-26, 01:37 AM
Eh, I think some of this is overreacting. The guy's a bad RPer, which shouldn't automatically mean having his character ground to dust. The Saint template has to go--from the sound of it, he never should have gotten it in the first place. His party should be angry at him for his cowardice. The DM should have a talk with the player about what's required to RP a character. But falling? Cowardice is not an evil deed. I don't think a paladin should fall for that.

It's possible that he shouldn't be a paladin. But that, I think, comes from the DM emphasizing RP, and making it clear that he needs to RP the paladin properly. If he thinks he can--he could have a very interesting character arc trying to make up for past mistakes. If he can't, then he should be given the chance to try another character.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-26, 02:04 AM
And then you pee on his character sheet.
And slash his tires so he can't go home.

BROOKLYN RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

fixed it for you:smallbiggrin:Yugioh the abridged series reference for the win!

I don't know what I'd do in Terms of being a Paladin but I know I'd make it so he was no longer exalted and he could never get the saint template again. (per rules for saint template)

Soranar
2010-01-26, 02:47 AM
as a DM, honestly a couple of things

not roleplaying a Paladin well = falling
not roleplaying any other class is usually fine

you give a few warnings before when he's acting greedy and stuff

if he doesn't have a clue suggest a sensible course of action

but seriously, that guy should have fallen a few levels ago from what you're saying

if facing the dragon directly is suicidal then at least go collect the bodies of your friends to safety so you can resurrect them , well have the option at least

but yeah, a saint template to boot

he would fall (both) the minute he hid and let his buddies die