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View Full Version : Bypassing Gate Feats [PF/3.5]



Nero24200
2010-01-26, 06:41 AM
Hello all

The other day in a PF game I was looking though bonus feats for my ranger* and saw something. Certain feats could be taken without the normal prerequisites. Now, this is how it was intended (after all, the description even says you don't need to meet the prerequisites). How would this work with certain feats though? Like Greater Two Weapon Fighting, which specifically states you get a third attack whilst TWF, and, if gained from the ranger class, do not require Two-Weapon Fighting to take.

*For those unfamilier with the PF ranger, in place of a set feat whilst picking combat styles the ranger instead picks from a list of feats.

olentu
2010-01-26, 06:57 AM
Hmm looks like bad editing but I am a bit tire to thing on what could be done with it Right now.

BooNL
2010-01-26, 10:02 AM
Like Olentu mentioned, it's probably bad editing (surprise!). 3.5 rangers were allowed to negate the prereqs of TWF and such if they didn't meet it. As all the feats were given in order, the only prereqs they couldn't qualify for were the minimum ability scores.

Pathfinder probably relates to those ability scores as well.

Nero24200
2010-01-26, 10:13 AM
I'll be honest, I figured as much, that it should be more along the lines of "You ignore any prerequisites with the exception of feat prerequisites". Even if it's not, I'll likely play it that way anyway.

Thrawn183
2010-01-26, 11:30 AM
If you're trying to say what I think you are... than you'd get an attack at -10 with your off hand weapon without the two other attacks you would normally get from TWF. WOOOO!

OldTrees
2010-01-26, 02:06 PM
It sounds like you are talking about "virtual feats". I forgot which book they refer to them by that name though. (maybe Complete Warrior, Deities and Demigods or Epic Level Handbook) I am away from my books right now.


A virtual feat is a class feature that has the benefits of a feat and counts as that feat for the purposes of prerequisites.

A Ranger's Combat Style is an example of such a virtual feat.

Note: since it is a class feature and not the actual feat it has no prerequisites and cannot be Chaos Shuffled.

sofawall
2010-01-26, 02:10 PM
It sounds like you are talking about "virtual feats". I forgot which book they refer to them by that name though. (maybe Complete Warrior, Deities and Demigods or Epic Level Handbook) I am away from my books right now.


A virtual feat is a class feature that has the benefits of a feat and counts as that feat for the purposes of prerequisites.

A Ranger's Combat Style is an example of such a virtual feat.

Note: since it is a class feature and not the actual feat it has no prerequisites and cannot be Chaos Shuffled.

Keywords being "Treated as having" vs. "Gains as a bonus feat". Elves, for example, get proficiencies as bonus feats. Armour proficiencies from fighter are bonus feats, but weapons proficiencies are not, for whatever reason.

OldTrees
2010-01-26, 02:20 PM
Keywords being "Treated as having" vs. "Gains as a bonus feat". Elves, for example, get proficiencies as bonus feats. Armour proficiencies from fighter are bonus feats, but weapons proficiencies are not, for whatever reason.

Very important addition. Thank you.

Examples to claify:

Gained Feat
Endurance gained at Track Ranger class level 1 is an actual feat. Since it is given away as a class feature the prerequisites are nullified. Since the actual feat is gained it can be used in a chaos shuffle.

Virtual Feat
Combat Style (Two Weapon fighting) treats Rangers of class level 2+ as if they had Two Weapon Fighting (and Quickdraw if pathfinder). Since Combat Style is a class feature and not a feat it has no prerequisites nor can it be used in the chaos shuffle.

olentu
2010-01-26, 03:22 PM
Well having checked the online rules for pathfinder they seem to be saying that actual bonus feats are gained though the section could be better worded about that.

Now for improved two weapon fighting there is not really a problem since the two weapon fighting feat as I recall only lessened penalties for the two weapon fighting that everyone could already do.

Greater two weapon fighting on the other hand could still cause somewhat strange interactions.

So in the end this is still probably just some bad editing that slipped through.