Sci-Fi With Mary Sues

[darkblade]

For researching a free form game I shall be starting down in that forum section in a couple weeks or so I need to know some really bad Sci-Fi that is loaded with Mary Sue type characters in it's actual canon. Preferably something that is not an isolated piece of an expanded universe and in terms of Sue-ishness it should be comparable to Twilight and Eragon.

Right now I have Avatar, Gundam SEED (Destiny) and Andromeda. Are there any other notable examples of Sue-ish works in this genre?

[Optimystik]

This is likely to be a very subjective and inflammatory thread to any fans of the subject matter in question. Also, the term Mary Sue is and has always been very poorly defined.

You might as well have started a thread titled "Hey guys, which shows do you think suck?"

[doliest]

This is likely to be a very subjective and inflammatory thread to any fans of the subject matter in question. Also, the term Mary Sue is and has always been very poorly defined.

You might as well have started a thread titled "Hey guys, which shows do you think suck?"

No, trust me, it's different. Mary-sue is basically perfect characters, who usually have 1 'flaw,' at most. We don't just use low quality stuff, because there's alot of low quality sci-fi.

[darkblade]

That is true. I suppose I should give something of a definition of what I mean by Mary Sue.

Characters that are placed in pivotal roles of the story with little or bad characterization and excessive levels of power/skill/competence compared to other characters often without explanation. Often they are used as the mouth piece of the author but this is not necessarily the case.

[Mando Knight]

Star Wars. Seriously, I love the series, but the Skywalkers have varying characterization quality and ridiculous power level compared to everyone else. (except for the Emperor, Yoda, Samuel L. Jackson, and other "Hey, look! I'm important!" characters...)

[Kuma Da]

Vampire Hunter D is nominally science fiction. Very, very nominally. The animation doesn't really show it, but the translated novels do. I recommend a peek into them.

If you're looking for hard sci-fi Mary Sues, I'm afraid I don't know the genre as well. Although I will point out every single male lead in "Stranger in a Strange Land" except maybe for Valentine.

Don't get me wrong. Vampire Hunter D is very dear to my heart, and Stranger is crazy-progressive for when it was written, but that doesn't mean they can't both be hotbeds of Sue activity.

[Drakyn]

Star Wars. Seriously, I love the series, but the Skywalkers have varying characterization quality and ridiculous power level compared to everyone else. (except for the Emperor, Yoda, Samuel L. Jackson, and other "Hey, look! I'm important!" characters...)

Luke spends the first two movies as a ridiculous noob in one way or another and Anakin was a hotheaded idiot who epically screwed the pooch. It's more a "Jedi in general are really awesome and cool OOH LOOK LASER SWORDS" thing, I think.

EDIT: I'm going to volunteer Lazarus Long from Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love." Because practically immortal people who bone everything and can do anything and get to have sex with gender-flipped clones of themself and their mother are really a whole new level of disturbing.

[Cubey]

Star friggin' Craft. Brood War, to be more precise. The whole expansion wouldn't happen if Kerrigan didn't suddenly evolve (because she's a Zerg - get it?) into an omnipotent super-manipulator, which would be okay if not that everyone else, including characters well established as smart and hard to decept, suddenly started taking Idiot Pills.

Then Blizzard went and did the same with Warcraft III and Sylvannas. But I digress, because it's not science fiction anymore.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Mary Sue? How about Dune? Paul Atreide, Leto II..

the worse offender, however, was the "General" during the book The Heretics of Dune and the following book, Chapterhouse. He was simply over the top.

[Cyrion]

EDIT: I'm going to volunteer Lazarus Long from Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love." Because practically immortal people who bone everything and can do anything and get to have sex with gender-flipped clones of themself and their mother are really a whole new level of disturbing.

Really, almost any protagonist from Heinlein's popular canon as they're carbon copies (sometimes metaphorical, sometimes literal) of Lazarus Long.

The main character in the Stainless Steel Rat series could also qualify, though he's used more as an over-the-top-character than a Mary Sue.

[doliest]

Qualifiying side note; we're not after one or two characters; we want a hotbed world full of them, perferablely one that isn't involved with lots of things; I.E. Star wars ANYTHING wouldn't work, because it's a frankly massive setting filled with good things; samething with star trek.

[bosssmiley]

Really, almost any protagonist from Heinlein's popular canon as they're carbon copies (sometimes metaphorical, sometimes literal) of Lazarus Long. Heinlein's wish fulfillment version of himself. :smallamused:

The heroine of Elizabeth Moon's Serrano Legacy. Basically David Weber's Honor Harrington + zomgponies, family connections to the halls of power and HUEG (http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/2214/original/sub_HUEG_21_.jpg) Mary Sue-ness.

[Mercenary Pen]

Noyt sure if this really fits the bill, but maybe Mobile Fighter G Gundam?

[chaosgirl]

Star Wars.

Not the rest of the movies, not the extended universe, Star Wars.


It has a kid, who has the last Jedi Knight watching over him.
Hes the SON of one of the greatest Jedi Knights.

He's able, in the cores of the trip from his planet to the Death Star, learn how to use a light saber, a weapon unused since the Clone Wars.

He can jump right in to a star fighter, and pilot it better than experienced pilots.

Oh and the Jedi Knight who watched over him, was able to mystically guide him to blow up the Death Star

[BRC]

Remember that a Mary Sue is more than a character with few flaws, they also have to have loads of qualities. A character who is a good artist, bad at math, and otherwise average, isn't a Sue. If she is brilliant at all forms of art, so likable everybody she meets is either instantly her friend or jealous of her, an excellent musician, a superb athlete, ect ect, (but still bad at math), that's a Mary Sue.

[Cubey]

Noyt sure if this really fits the bill, but maybe Mobile Fighter G Gundam?

G Gundam has Mary Sues? Well, Master Asia maybe, depending on your point of view...

While we're in terms of anime, Ghost in the Shell. "Mayor" Matoko Kusanagi is a Mary Sue extraordinaire. The whole of Section Nine revolves around her, she can break rules as she pleases, and despite being a generalist beats other section members in areas they specialize in. Also, plenty of author appeal - robot (well, cyborg) girl, skimpy outfits, lesbian or at least bisexual. And despite that, GitS is still a very good series + movies.

[Zen Monkey]

Alice, from the Resident Evil movies, seems to qualify. The other characters spend a lot of time just watching her in awe (or commenting about it) and she never seems the least bit challenged by any obstacles except the occasional display of emotion.

[Dervag]

Really, almost any protagonist from Heinlein's popular canon as they're carbon copies (sometimes metaphorical, sometimes literal) of Lazarus Long.Huh? I can think of several exceptions:
-Starship Troopers (protagonist is the archetypal infantry grunt)
-Podkayne of Mars (protagonist is a rather silly teenage girl)

And from his slightly less famous (but still popular in the SF community) work:
-Have Spacesuit, Will Travel (protagonist is a nerdy teenager)
-Glory Road (protagonist is yet another archetypal infantry grunt, with the honor streak played up)...

You get the idea. Very few of his protagonists (or even characters) are all that much like Lazarus Long unless you look at the last few novels he ever wrote, during his "Dirty Old Man" years.

Plus, he wrote the Lazarus Long books near the end of his career (and life); practically all his popular books were written before that. It's fair to say that Lazarus Long is the distillation of his favorite character types, and you can definitely see a lot of Long in some of his earlier minor characters, but you can't very well make someone a carbon copy of a character you won't come up with for another fifteen years.


The main character in the Stainless Steel Rat series could also qualify, though he's used more as an over-the-top-character than a Mary Sue.Yeah. He's the Supercompetent Hero (this theme dates back to before the invention of the Internet, let alone the original "Mary Sue" fan character) played for laughs.


Star friggin' Craft. Brood War, to be more precise. The whole expansion wouldn't happen if Kerrigan didn't suddenly evolve (because she's a Zerg - get it?) into an omnipotent super-manipulator, which would be okay if not that everyone else, including characters well established as smart and hard to decept, suddenly started taking Idiot Pills.Eh. This is a good illustration of the problem with calling canonical characters "Mary Sues." You see, where you perceive nothing but Kerrigan tricking people who are on Idiot Pills, I perceive something else. Kerrigan's cleverness wasn't so much in manipulating idiots, it was in identifying people's actual strategic interests and cooperating with them in those interests just long enough to get into a position to betray them.

(Detailed explanation below)
Let's start with Protoss Mission 3, her first appearance in Brood War. The renegade Zerg have built up around the Xel'Naga temple; they're starting to infest the planet. The Dark Templar clear the temple grounds and kill the Cerebrates running the Zerg. Then Kerrigan shows up and tells them that there is a new Overmind growing on Char, that she doesn't want it to take control of her, and that she's willing to help them beat the renegade Zerg. All of which is true. It is genuinely in the interests of the Protoss to ally with Kerrigan against the other Zerg; from their point of view they are the ones playing different Zerg factions off against each other.

This proceeds to Protoss Mission 7, when Aldaris leads a Protoss rebellion against the Dark Templar-dominated government that he sees as corrupt because it allied with Kerrigan. Kerrigan steps in and assassinates Aldaris, causing the other Protoss to turn on her... but by that point, she has no further need of them. Aldaris wasn't stupid for rebelling against a government he (rightly) saw as being manipulated by a Zerg faction; Zeratul and Artanis weren't stupid for trying to stop him when he threatened to undermine the Protoss defenses.

Of course, they then go and do exactly what Kerrigan wanted them to do: destroy the large Zerg force on Shakuras, weakening the Zerg not under her control. But they have to do it anyway, because otherwise they're screwed by overwhelming Zerg attack.

This is a good illustration of Kerrigan's modus operandi. She finds a group with a sincere reason to accept her support against a common enemy, then helps them until that enemy is nullified.
________

During most of the Terran campaign, Kerrigan chooses to lie low and let the UED become a threat to the sector. She has good strategic reasons to do so: at the start of their invasion they're too strong for her forces to beat. She needs allies, but no one in their right mind will ally with her unless they're desperate... which requires that the UED be winning. On the other hand, she dispatches Duran to manipulate the UED forces to destroy from the one thing that could legitimately threaten her: the Psi Disruptor. Like his queen, Duran does this mostly by telling them slanted truths- presenting the Disruptor as a threat to their mission to enslave the Zerg, rather than an asset.

The Zerg campaign mostly consists of her finding a series of allies and betraying them, but the one recurring theme is that she always tries to find an ally desperate enough to be willing to sign on with her, to the point where it is in their own best interests to do so. Even if that means they're going to get screwed over later. They don't have to be stupid to do what she wants; what would be stupid is avoiding her to the point of accepting defeat by another force for the sake of not doing what she wants.

[BRC]

Star friggin' Craft. Brood War, to be more precise. The whole expansion wouldn't happen if Kerrigan didn't suddenly evolve (because she's a Zerg - get it?) into an omnipotent super-manipulator, which would be okay if not that everyone else, including characters well established as smart and hard to decept, suddenly started taking Idiot Pills.

Then Blizzard went and did the same with Warcraft III and Sylvannas. But I digress, because it's not science fiction anymore.

Sylvannas wasn't a "Master Manipulator", she just double-crossed some people. The only real "Manipulation" she did was "Do this or I kill you".
Dervag had a better discussion about Kerrigan than I could come up with. It's not a Skillful Manipulation if you team up with somebody to achieve a common goal and then stab them in the back, that's just being able to keep a straight face and finding somebody desperate enough to work with you. It dosn't take genius levels of intellect to come up with "We want the same thing, so we work together, once we have achieved that, I don't need you anymore"

[Cubey]

Dervag, you presented some of the Starcraft: Brood War plot as proof that Kerrigan was not a Mary Sue, however I can deduct from the same summary that she actually was a one.

For example:
You have to be a colossal idiot not to believe Aldaris will see you as a traitor for allying with Kerrigan, knowing that Aldaris is an inflexible old fool. A much better reaction to Kerrigan's proposal would be to go "oh, thanks for the info Zerg Queen, now DIE DIE DIE."

It's sad when the Wh40K approach is more reasonable than what you did in canon.

Also, the whole existence of Kerrigan is proof that Blizzard themselves are Zerg fanboys. "The Zerg have an omnipresent, vaguely metaphysical eye-thing as their faction leader - that will not do! Let's abduct some hot chick and give her an evil makeover and make her the new leader after offing the old one in some half-assed way. Oh yeah, I feel titillated. Oh, and the faction she leads will never possibly lose. Even after suffering a huge blow they will still recover easily."

[BRC]

Dervag, you presented some of the Starcraft: Brood War plot as proof that Kerrigan was not a Mary Sue, however I can deduct from the same summary that she actually was a one.

For example:
You have to be a colossal idiot not to believe Aldaris will see you as a traitor for allying with Kerrigan, knowing that Aldaris is an inflexible old fool. A much better reaction to Kerrigan's proposal would be to go "oh, thanks for the info Zerg Queen, now DIE DIE DIE."

It's sad when the Wh40K approach is more reasonable than what you did in canon.

Also, the whole existence of Kerrigan is proof that Blizzard themselves are Zerg fanboys. "The Zerg have an omnipresent, vaguely metaphysical eye-thing as their faction leader - that will not do! Let's abduct some hot chick and give her an evil makeover and make her the new leader after offing the old one in some half-assed way. Oh yeah, I feel titillated. Oh, and the faction she leads will never possibly lose. Even after suffering a huge blow they will still recover easily."
Did the players have a complete knowledge of Alderis? Also, the Protoss were in a fairly desperate situation, they couldn't afford to make another enemy. Also the ones deciding to ally with Kerrigan were the Dark Templar (who had been calling the shots since the fall of Aiur). They probably knew Alderis wouldn't like the deal, but they didn't know for sure how far he would go in his opposition, especially since they have been cut off from Protoss society for centuries. Besides, it's not like they had an incredibly close collaboration, it was mostly just "Lets attack the same people at the same time".

Also, "Offing the old one in some half-assed way"? The death of the overmind was the climax of the entire campaign, the sacrifice of protagonist of the Protoss camaign.

[Optimystik]

No, trust me, it's different. Mary-sue is basically perfect characters, who usually have 1 'flaw,' at most. We don't just use low quality stuff, because there's alot of low quality sci-fi.

I'm not opposed to the "Mary Sue" part, I'm opposed to the "let's name shows other people like with Mary Sues in them."

And it seems my prediction is starting to come true, as the thread becomes polarized between Kerrigan/Sylvanas detractors and supporters.


Alice, from the Resident Evil movies, seems to qualify. The other characters spend a lot of time just watching her in awe (or commenting about it) and she never seems the least bit challenged by any obstacles except the occasional display of emotion.

I definitely agree; using darkblade's definition, Alice qualifies. She has even reduced such notables as Jill Valentine, Claire Redfield and Carlos to slackjawed disbelief at her combat prowess. :smallconfused:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Star Wars. Seriously, I love the series, but the Skywalkers have varying characterization quality and ridiculous power level compared to everyone else. (except for the Emperor, Yoda, Samuel L. Jackson, and other "Hey, look! I'm important!" characters...)

Star Wars isn't Sci Fi, especially regarding the Skywalkers.

But on that front, there's Darth Revan. Mr I can break the rules of the setting and everybody loves me even if they're my enemy.


It has a kid, who has the last Jedi Knight watching over him.
Hes the SON of one of the greatest Jedi Knights.

Not really a Mary Sue trait, and until the prequels came out then he was just the son of a great Jedi, not an amazingly super awesome chosen one jedi.


He's able, in the cores of the trip from his planet to the Death Star, learn how to use a light saber, a weapon unused since the Clone Wars.

Except he doesn't, there's no evidence he has any lightsaber skills until after Yoda has trained him.


He can jump right in to a star fighter, and pilot it better than experienced pilots.

He is an experianced pilot and there's no evidence in the film that he's any better than Wedge or Bigs (even though one of those dies).


Oh and the Jedi Knight who watched over him, was able to mystically guide him to blow up the Death Star

Which makes him less of a Mary Sue, since he needed help. A Mary Sue would have immediately shown Obi Wan up at every opportunity.

Luke Skywalker is based on heroic archetypes, of course he flags some of the categories. But he's also in an ensemble piece and for a guy who's the center of everything his role in the plot is kind of minor. He needs people to help him, he fails in the middle and at the end all he does is make one guy kill another guy who would've died anyway when a bunch of trumped up redshirts blow up the deathstar.

EU Luke probably slips into Mary Suism in some of those novels I don't read though. Mara Jade too.

[Cubey]

Also, "Offing the old one in some half-assed way"? The death of the overmind was the climax of the entire campaign, the sacrifice of protagonist of the Protoss camaign.

Yeah, a sacrifice that achieved nothing. The death of the Overmind was pointless, as uncontrolled Zerg proved themselves to be at least as dangerous as normal ones. Because in Starcraft-verse, if you're not a Zerg then the best you can hope for is that you won't be screwed too hard. Succeeding in anything major (except for damage control after you get screwed again)? Hah, you wish! Maybe after the lore stops being written by fanboys of their own friggin' work.

I am not angry or bitter. More like totally disinterested. I'll buy SC II anyway, but not for the story.

[chaosgirl]

You're right, hes ONLY the son of the greatest pilot in the universe (or galaxy, cant find a quote at the moment) Is give his fathers lightsaber, told that he will follow in his destiny ect ect ect




Except he doesn't, there's no evidence he has any lightsaber skills until after Yoda has trained him.


This is quite true, your right on this one


He is an experianced pilot and there's no evidence in the film that he's any better than Wedge or Bigs (even though one of those dies).


Whats he experenced with?

I HONESTLY don't know what a Skyhopper is, but I have to assume that any vehicle that Luke a small farming family has, is very different from a top of the line starfighter.


Which makes him less of a Mary Sue, since he needed help. A Mary Sue would have immediately shown Obi Wan up at every opportunity.

From what I recall, Luke had the target in his sights anyways, but still got hope from the magical ghost adviser no one else got to interact with

[Catch]

Speaking of Star Wars, I feel Corran Horn from the X-Wing novels (later in I, Jedi and the NJO series) was a bit of a shallow, near-perfect character. Mind you, when I was 13 and an EU addict, he was my starfightin' precocious Jedi hero, but later, I see that he rarely made mistakes and ended up being good at almost everything he tried. Plus, I can't recall any real moral failures on his part. Corran was probably Michael A. Stackpole's EU avatar, which I can understand, and it does seem like he tried to make the character honestly vulnerable at times.


Whats he experenced with?

I HONESTLY don't know what a Skyhopper is, but I have to assume that any vehicle that Luke a small farming family has, is very different from a top of the line starfighter.

It's actually not. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper) The T-16 was manufactured by Incom, the same company which produced the T-65 X-Wing, and were used as training vehicles for the Rebel Alliance, specifically because they two craft had very similar controls. Also, we're told Luke is a hotshot pilot a couple of times, like dear old dad.


From what I recall, Luke had the target in his sights anyways, but still got hope from the magical ghost adviser no one else got to interact with

The EU will tell you that X-Wing targeting computers were accurate on targets down to 10 meters or so, and that the Death Star exhaust port was too small to be reliably hit with the device - hence the bit of dialogue in the briefing room, and the shot that glanced off the surface.

Plotwise however, it's the better ending. Luke proves himself as a hero, and drives a huge crack into the Imperial base of power - using his latent Force talent. Cue the rebirth of the Jedi coinciding with the freedom of the Galaxy. Nice and tidy, and fitting with the whole sci-fi-mythology Lucas wanted.

Regarding Obi-Wan, it's kind of a major plot point that Luke was Force-sensitive. You know, the whole "a Jedi, like your father before you" bit? The main thrust of three movies? The climax of the film reaffirms the power of the Force still exists, and sets Luke on the path to inheriting his destiny. Sure it's contrived, but this isn't grimdark gritpulp science fiction here. Just roll with it.



Also, the whole existence of Kerrigan is proof that Blizzard themselves are Zerg fanboys. "The Zerg have an omnipresent, vaguely metaphysical eye-thing as their faction leader - that will not do! Let's abduct some hot chick and give her an evil makeover and make her the new leader after offing the old one in some half-assed way. Oh yeah, I feel titillated. Oh, and the faction she leads will never possibly lose. Even after suffering a huge blow they will still recover easily."

I recall the Zerg recovering rather quickly after The Overmind was destroyed. Because they're the friggin' Zerg. Tireless, without number, and can spawn faster than a Marine can run out of ammo. Kerrigan's leadership didn't suddenly make the Zerg into a WTFPWN army - they were already capable of such. The difference was tactics, enabled by her human mind. Before Kerrigan, the Zerg didn't parley, they didn't feint, lie, or make alliances. They just ate and multiplied, on one world after another, and doing that alone made them an incredibly dangerous threat, enough for the Protoss to glass whole worlds and ally with the Terrans.

What Kerrigan did was take an already powerful and vicious army and use her specialized knowledge to surprise two forces which assumed the Zerg to be a mindless horde. And, you know, dead. After working closely with Arcturus Mengst and Jim Raynor and studying the Protoss, it's not a stretch to believe that she would understand her foes far better than the Zerg, which figured out their enemies by devouring them. Moreover, having been allies, even friends these leaders, is it so unlikely that she would know how to manipulate and deceive them?

I'll give you that her transformation is a bit... sudden, but my suspension of disbelief can bear the load of Kerrigans apotheosis having some unusual psychological properties, and perhaps a surge of intellect, what with being shaped by the Overmind and all. Really though, Ghosts aren't the most forthright of people. I'm willing to believe Kerrigan was far more cunning than she let on, as a human. Your argument just strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction to sci-fi eye candy. (Really? Kerrigan? Ugh.)

It certainly wasn't the most original of plot choices, but she made a pretty solid Bitch Queen of the Universe.

[Mando Knight]

Whats he experenced with?

I HONESTLY don't know what a Skyhopper is, but I have to assume that any vehicle that Luke a small farming family has, is very different from a top of the line starfighter.

It's a civilian model airspeeder. Luke is playing around with his scale model one while 3PO is taking a bath, and background material says Uncle Owen grounded him from his full-size one after he did some reckless flying.

[Otogi]

Wesley Crusher count? They did name a trope after him.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Sci-Fi Mary Sue?

Space Marines.

/thread

[Dienekes]

Dervag, you presented some of the Starcraft: Brood War plot as proof that Kerrigan was not a Mary Sue, however I can deduct from the same summary that she actually was a one.

For example:
You have to be a colossal idiot not to believe Aldaris will see you as a traitor for allying with Kerrigan, knowing that Aldaris is an inflexible old fool. A much better reaction to Kerrigan's proposal would be to go "oh, thanks for the info Zerg Queen, now DIE DIE DIE."



I think this, right here, shows that you missed just about everything in the characterization of the protoss heroes.

As to the storyline, I personally think that the reason the Zerg look like they're the big honchos that Blizzard loves is because it's been 10+ years since we got to see any new developments.

At the end of SCI it looked like the Zerg were all but defeated since the Overmind was set up as the mastermind leaving only raging animals. Protoss had reunited their tribe (after heavy losses of course) but seemed to be generally ok, and the terrain were there.

By Brood War, creating a new Overmind would have been rather boring and meant no change to the Zerg race, come in Kerrigan who is a much better villain anyway. But even she seems to have been manipulated by Duran. However for 10 years all we've got is an in your face evil of Kerrigan who seems to reign supreme and some vague force that you only ever even hear of if you unlock the secret bonus mission.

Now that we have the order of the campaigns of the new game it really seems that the Zerg are going to get a culling coming up, if they follow their pattern from the earlier game that the last games are the winners. Though the terrain still get left behind.

[chaosgirl]

It's a civilian model airspeeder. Luke is playing around with his scale model one while 3PO is taking a bath, and background material says Uncle Owen grounded him from his full-size one after he did some reckless flying.

Ok, So Luke has what I assume we can say is the equivalent of a Personal flying license.

Now, I'm not saying hes not DAMN good at flying an aircraft that his family could afford, but my brother in law has his PFL and that doesn't meant that he would know what to do in an F-22 (thanks to wiki for that)

[snoopy13a]

Lone Starr from Spaceballs. He starts off with a space capable Winneabago. His sidekick is his own best friend.

He has a debt to Pizza the Hutt but "plot" takes care of that. He learns how to use the Schwatz in like a night. The Druish Princess falls in love in with him. He has stunt doubles to get captured in his stead. He's the only person in the galaxy who dares use Rasberry Jam on Dark Helmet. He becomes a "prince" at the end of the movie and he also gets special fuel from Yogurt just so he can make it time to get the girl.

Lone Starr is a clear Mary Sue. I actually think he is some fanboy's dream combination of Han Solo and Luke Skywalker only with an improved Chewbacca :smalltongue:

[SolkaTruesilver]

Ok, So Luke has what I assume we can say is the equivalent of a Personal flying license.

Now, I'm not saying hes not DAMN good at flying an aircraft that his family could afford, but my brother in law has his PFL and that doesn't meant that he would know what to do in an F-22 (thanks to wiki for that)

It is mentionned that the Airspeeder he piloted (and fought with. There was some weapons on that thing, he fried some birds) had commands very similar to the X-Wing. The X-Wing was known to be a very simple and efficient model to pilot, which is why the Rebels used it a lot.

[Mercenary Pen]

Ok, So Luke has what I assume we can say is the equivalent of a Personal flying license.

Now, I'm not saying hes not DAMN good at flying an aircraft that his family could afford, but my brother in law has his PFL and that doesn't meant that he would know what to do in an F-22 (thanks to wiki for that)

However, the controls of the X-Wing were heavily based on those of civilian speeders (such as the T-16) which were made by the same manufacturer, and with atmospheric aerodynamics taking a back seat due to repulsorlift technology, even the radically different shapes of the T-16 Skyhopper and the T-65B X-Wing wasn't going to make it too difficult to transition from one to the other.

Edit: I was ninja'd.

[Dienekes]

I wonder if you could make the case that the X-Wing is the Mary-Sue of space fighters.

[chaosgirl]

Ah, Im not a fan of the EU stuff my self, so i didn't know that. That makes it make some more sense.

Still, in the movie, from the information given, hes a kid with some experience flying ships, who's put in a top of the line fighter and figures out how to fly it, in less than what?

15 Min?

[Catch]

Sci-Fi Mary Sue?

Space Marines. THE EMPRAH

/thread

Fix'd that for you. Heretic.

[snoopy13a]

I wonder if you could make the case that the X-Wing is the Mary-Sue of space fighters.

Not really. In the movie Star Wars (A New Hope for you revisionists :smalltongue: ), there doesn't seem to be much appreciable difference between the X-Wings, Y-Wings, and TIE Fighters. Piloting skill seems to be the determining factor.

In the EU, the X-Wing is the jack of all trades fighter. The A-Wing is faster and the B-Wing has more firepower. However, the Mary-Sueness comes from the X-Wing pilots, not the fighters themselves.

[Mando Knight]

I wonder if you could make the case that the X-Wing is the Mary-Sue of space fighters.

How about one that's designed to take on the previous BEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME! by THE BEST CHESSMASTER OF ALL TIME! and loaded out with a ridiculous number of missiles?

Huh... that's not the X-Wing, that's the King Hell God Emperor Starfighter of Death (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Missile_Boat).

[Catch]

How about one that's designed to take on the previous BEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME! by THE BEST CHESSMASTER OF ALL TIME! and loaded out with a ridiculous number of missiles?

Huh... that's not the X-Wing, that's the King Hell God Emperor Starfighter of Death (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Missile_Boat).

I'll do you one better. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_crusher)

Yes. This is a starfighter that can create a supernova, piloted by a dark Jedi.

[SolkaTruesilver]

In the EU, the X-Wing is the jack of all trades fighter. The A-Wing is faster and the B-Wing has more firepower. However, the Mary-Sueness comes from the X-Wing pilots, not the fighters themselves.

How about the E-Wing, which was supposed to be as quick as the A-Wing, as powerful as the B-wing?

Oh, if you are looking for a Mary Sue starfighter, go for the XJ-Wing. It's simply described as "superior to all others", in the NJO.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Fix'd that for you. Heretic.

All of them were Mary Sue. But the Emperor made some critical mistakes. Spesh Marines are just that awesome, YO FOOKING NOOB!!!!!!!!!!!

[snoopy13a]

How about the E-Wing, which was supposed to be as quick as the A-Wing, as powerful as the B-wing?

Oh, if you are looking for a Mary Sue starfighter, go for the XJ-Wing. It's simply described as "superior to all others", in the NJO.

Or the TIE Defender from TIE Fighter. As fast as an A-Wing, can turn like a TIE Interceptor and is as powerful as a B-Wing.

[Mercenary Pen]

How about the E-Wing, which was supposed to be as quick as the A-Wing, as powerful as the B-wing?

But needed an astromech that couldn't do anything else, and had lasers that needed to be overpowered to the point of potentially exploding in order to do enough damage.

[SolkaTruesilver]

But needed an astromech that couldn't do anything else, and had lasers that needed to be overpowered to the point of potentially exploding in order to do enough damage.

Point taken! I really don't know the intrication of the E-Wing. forgive my Geek-fu :smallfrown:

[Mercenary Pen]

Point taken! I really don't know the intrication of the E-Wing. forgive my Geek-fu :smallfrown:

All is forgiven, I in turn apologise for many years worth of misspent youth.

[SolkaTruesilver]

All is forgiven, I in turn apologise for many years worth of misspent youth.

You never know. Maybe one day, Harrison Ford will call you from a Millenium Falcon replica to ask you some critical data needed to save his life. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GalaxyQuest)

[Hadessniper]

Characters that are placed in pivotal roles of the story with little or bad characterization and excessive levels of power/skill/competence compared to other characters often without explanation. Often they are used as the mouth piece of the author but this is not necessarily the case.

The Doctor.

[Mercenary Pen]

You never know. Maybe one day, Harrison Ford will call you from a Millenium Falcon replica to ask you some critical data needed to save his life. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GalaxyQuest)

Hey, I'd just link him to wookieepedia and tell him to look it up himself.

[JonestheSpy]

Really, I think 95% of fantasy and SF center around "Mary Sue" protagonists. A better question might be which ones don't?

To answer my own question, the best example i can think of is the brilliant The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester.

[Johel]

Honor Harrington has already been listed but still, it deserves a mention...and an explanation.

The stories themselves aren't bad.
The way science is treated usually sounds "ok" and space battles are as realistic as one might expect (if you can forget a few pseudo-technobable to explain propulsion, inertia dampening and the likes...but without at least some of it, most good "action SF" wouldn't work)

What is a pain is Honor herself. She is a stereotype of "The Perfect Captain", rarely show any flaw, both mentally and physically...and that's boring !! Heroes must have flaws, be weak in some situation, make mistakes.
Her enemies usually start as competent guys but seem to be infected with a dire stroke of bad luck and incompetence as soon as they move openly against her crew.

[Prime32]

I think the point of this was to screw up the lives of unintentionally annoying/disturbing characters via RP, so Captains Janeway and Archer of Star Trek might qualify (and Wesley of course, but it seems unfair to drag Picard down with him), as well as the cast of Stargate Atlantis.

[BRC]

Really, I think 95% of fantasy and SF center around "Mary Sue" protagonists. A better question might be which ones don't?
And here we get back to the definition of "Mary Sue".
Fiction tends to be about the protagonists succeeding. You are reasonably sure that the plucky farmboy is going to defeat the dark lord, the detective is going to find the killer, ect. But this doesn't make those characters Mary Sues.
Also, just because a character isn't loaded down by crippling flaws dosn't mean they are a Mary Sue.

Now, the definition of a Mary Sue is subjective, some people think it has to be a full-on wish-fulfillment author avatar. Others think any character the author likes is a Sue.

Now, the way I see it, for Sue classification, the character needs to show signs of definite author favoritism, and preferably have skills they have no justification for.
For example, if the character in question is part of an elite special forces squad, I'm not going to complain if he's a badass, because that's his job and, presumably, that's why he got onto said elite special forces squad. If he's the best on that squad, I don't mind because he's the protagonist, so he gets a little leeway on that front. If he's also a decent cook who knows how to play guitar, those are skills he could have developed on his own.
Now, if he's an unstoppable badass who is the best chef in the world, plays guitar like the clone baby of Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton, who also can get shot twice in the leg then climb a mountain and ski down the other side with no problem, who can receive 6 hours of training from a bomb technician and then disarms a professionally made bomb in 30 seconds, then we're talking a Sue.


The point is, outside of parody, authors don't intentionally create Sues. For Sue status to be reached in my opinion, it must be clear that the author loves the character and is trying to show them off. They write the story with the intent of getting the reader to love the character as much as they do.

Let's take for example Honor Harrington. I wouldn't balk at calling her a Sue, but not because she is a very talented commander/ badass martial artist/whatever, because that is the basic concept of the character, and seeing as she is, in fact, a captain, I'm not going to complain about her being good at it. I'm not even going to complain about how much the public loves her in the later books, she's a war hero, people like that sort of thing.

No, the reason Harrington is a Stu is because people who dislike her are never given a legitimate reason to do so. Every intelligent character likes her, and every character who dislikes her is an idiot. The point is "If you don't like her, you must be stupid".

[snoopy13a]

And here we get back to the definition of "Mary Sue".


It is actually an easy definition:

If I like the character: Not a Mary Sue

If I don't like the character: Mary Sue

[Tavar]

How about the E-Wing, which was supposed to be as quick as the A-Wing, as powerful as the B-wing?

Oh, if you are looking for a Mary Sue starfighter, go for the XJ-Wing. It's simply described as "superior to all others", in the NJO.

Well, I'm not up on most of the EU, but couldn't that be seen as more the simple evolution of technology? I mean, some of those were only introduced long after the others. Or in the case of the Tie Defender, was expensive and a prototype only up until right before the Emperors death.



What is a pain is Honor herself. She is a stereotype of "The Perfect Captain", rarely show any flaw, both mentally and physically...and that's boring !! Heroes must have flaws, be weak in some situation, make mistakes.
Her enemies usually start as competent guys but seem to be infected with a dire stroke of bad luck and incompetence as soon as they move openly against her crew.
What about here severe physical trauma in Honor of the Queen? Then mental trama in Field of Dishonor or Flag in Exile? In Enemy Hands entirely?

Or what about the several instances where she doesn't win, or only manages a partial win? Or when here enemies can operate without huge constraints against her, and the do so effectively?

I will admit, as long as you ignore all the times she fails, makes mistakes, or suffers personal trauma, yes, she is entirely perfect and without flaw.

[BRC]

It is actually an easy definition:

If I like the character: Not a Mary Sue

If I don't like the character: Mary Sue
No, it's more like this.
If both me and the author like the character: It's an awesome character.
If I like the character and the author dosn't: they are an underutilized idea that the author wasted.
If the Author likes the character but I don't: Mary Sue.
If both me and the author dislike the character: it's a good thing the author recognized this character sucks and limited their role.

[SolkaTruesilver]

You could also have Author Avatar, which usually end up as a Mary Sue...

[Matar]

While we're in terms of anime, Ghost in the Shell. "Mayor" Matoko Kusanagi is a Mary Sue extraordinaire. The whole of Section Nine revolves around her, she can break rules as she pleases, and despite being a generalist beats other section members in areas they specialize in. Also, plenty of author appeal - robot (well, cyborg) girl, skimpy outfits, lesbian or at least bisexual. And despite that, GitS is still a very good series + movies.

Oh gawd. This. Just this.

I hate this show with a passion, and yet I love the episodes that have hardly anything to do with this chick. I refuse to sit by and watch any episode that focuses on her because it basically just says "I'm awesome. I'm awesome" over and over. Yet, I still try to figure out which episodes -don't- have her just to see how awesome the show is.

Grrrr. I nominate her for Mary Sue of the year =|

For other Mary Sues... well honestly, I don't watch much Sci-Fi, so I'll let someone else handle this >_>

[Lord_Gareth]

Y'know, I think I actually read a pretty good definition of a Mary Sue once; Mary Sue characters are those who generate effect with no (or inappropriate) cause. Characters like or hate them instantly, their efforts always succeed or, conversely, always fail, et cetera, et cetera. A Mary Sue is a character that affects the story and the world the story portrays without any discernable connection to their own actions, virtues, and/or faults.

Take Bella Swan (of the Twilight series) as an example. Bella self-describes as plain, ordinary, and unintelligent - yet, when she moves into Forks, all the boys are falling over her, and Edward "falls in love" with her at first sniff. Her behavior and characterization throughout the series consistently fails to meet with realistic responses and attitudes by the other characters (and also fails to have a realistic cause, given the characterizations of her parents), but she always succeeds and gets what she wants, in spite of overwhelming odds and, frankly, the laws that Ms. Meyer laid down governing her vision of vampires.

[SolkaTruesilver]

- yet, when she moves into Forks, all the boys are falling over her, and Edward "falls in love" with her at first sniff.

Me think you are just jealous
/joke

Edit: anyway, this is supposed to be about Science-Fiction, not emo vampire flick :smallbiggrin:

[BRC]

Oh gawd. This. Just this.

I hate this show with a passion, and yet I love the episodes that have hardly anything to do with this chick. I refuse to sit by and watch any episode that focuses on her because it basically just says "I'm awesome. I'm awesome" over and over. Yet, I still try to figure out which episodes -don't- have her just to see how awesome the show is.

Grrrr. I nominate her for Mary Sue of the year =|

For other Mary Sues... well honestly, I don't watch much Sci-Fi, so I'll let someone else handle this >_>
I hate it when people say things like this. They point out a flaw in a show I enjoy, and they are entierly correct.
The Major is, among other things, an incredibly skilled hacker, an unstoppable badass in both melee and ranged combat, a skilled investigator, a superb infiltrator, and a smoking hot cyborg chick. Sounds pretty sueish to me.

Now, the show manages to remain good by not showing off with her. Section 9 works as a team. When they solve a mystery (as many episodes involve), they do it by showing the team work through clues and evidence, and you see how they reach the conclusions that they do, rather than just having the Major take one look at things and say "Alright, I figured it out".
Now, they do show her off with action scenes, but you get more leeway with that, for a variety of reasons, number one being "People being awesome in action scenes is badass".

Now, if the show was centered around combat, the Major would be a much greater detriment to the show, however, since her job mainly consists of being the person the rest of the team calls when they figure something out it works.

[Winterwind]

I'm surprised Wesley Crusher was mentioned only once in this thread and nobody commented on that, considering he is just about as archetypical a Sue as can be.

As for the earlier discussion of Blizzard's supposed love for the Zerg, I'd like to point out that Blizzard games always follow the pattern of the good guys winning in the main game and the evil guys winning in the expansion to set up the ground for a sequel.

[Prime32]

I've seen it suggested that Nanoha Takamachi is a Mary Sue. She's a normal girl who turns out to have the magic potential of an AAA-rank mage for no discernable reason, and invents high-level techniques in the middle of combat. She is apparently smart enough that she can engage in intense telepathic-VR training at all times without it interfering with her everyday activities (even while taking a Maths test). Plus she's adorable.

Nanoha, Fate and Hayate all get high positions in the TSAB in their early twenties, even though it's based in another dimension and the latter two used to be wanted criminals.

Speaking of Hayate, she starts off as a wheelchair-bound classmate of Nanoha's with no magical ability. She ends up being both more powerful and higher-ranked than Nanoha, with four loyal and super-powerful knights two loyal and super-powerful knights, a fairy, a utility caster and a dog. This does, however, mean she is largely restricted to paperwork, and all her spells are so powerful that she must receive special authorisation to use any magic at all, including the evacuation of civilians from the area in which she will be casting.

[smuchmuch]

I believe one criteria generaly accepted in the definition of a Sue is that no matter what they do the whole world seem to revolve around them.

And as far as sues goes, I'd say Ender and mostly his two siblings from Ender's game rank pretty high.

[warty goblin]

I believe one criteria generaly accepted in the definition of a Sue is that no matter what they do the whole world seem to revolve around them.

And as far as sues goes, I'd say Ender and mostly his two siblings from Ender's game rank pretty high.

More his siblings than him really, at least in the first book. Sure he's a genius military leader, but he was literally born and bred for that, and then was extensively trained. That I'll buy. Dominating the internet I find harder to accept.

[JonestheSpy]

More his siblings than him really, at least in the first book. Sure he's a genius military leader, but he was literally born and bred for that, and then was extensively trained. That I'll buy. Dominating the internet I find harder to accept.

And dominating the world by being the awesomest blogger even harder...

Oh, and I found Matthias of the first Redwall book to be an incredibly annoying Mary Sue years before I ever heard the term.

[GoC]

Not sure if she's been mentioned but: David Weber's Honor Harrington.

In order to be a Mary Sue you need either near perfection compared to everyone else with one or two not particularly important flaws, or you need to have the laws of the universe bend to make things easier for you without it being an explicit power. Either way you need to be the centre of attention.

[Lost Demiurge]

Not sure if she's been mentioned but: David Weber's Honor Harrington.

In order to be a Mary Sue you need either near perfection compared to everyone else with one or two not particularly important flaws, or you need to have the laws of the universe bend to make things easier for you without it being an explicit power. Either way you need to be the centre of attention.

God YES, Honor Harrington.

And she started with such potential, too... Dammit, Weber.

On Ghost in the Shell... The Major COULD be a Mary Sue. God knows she's close to the line. But it's tempered by a few things, that keep her from crossing that line. One, is that she can be wrong. Not only that, but she can be fooled. Hell, in the first movie, the tank would've killed her if Batou hadn't blown it to bits with a "standard issue big-gun."

In the TV series she gets a little closer to the line, but the thing of it is... The rest of the team is cool in their own way, they're just not as flashy as Kusanagi. And the problems and enemies that she's pitted against need an entire team to solve.

[Closet_Skeleton]

As for the earlier discussion of Blizzard's supposed love for the Zerg, I'd like to point out that Blizzard games always follow the pattern of the good guys winning in the main game and the evil guys winning in the expansion to set up the ground for a sequel.

No, just WC3 and Starcraft (okay, I never played Diablo).

WC1: Orcs win
WC1 expansion: doesn't exist
WC2: Alliance wins
WC2 expansion: Alliance wins

[Philistine]

God YES, Honor Harrington.

And she started with such potential, too... Dammit, Weber.


Oh, the warning signs are there right from the start. The very first book goes out of the way to show that anyone who doesn't adore H2 needs to work out their issues. Alistair McKeon is simply jealous (resolved when the sheer awesomeness of H2 eventually wins him over), Sonja Hemphill turns petty and vindictive when her pet theories are disproven in practice (resolved in later books when she finally has some good ideas), and Pavel Young is just a poster boy for Stupid, Mustache-Twirling, Cartoon Villain Evil (resolved in a later book when H2 shoots him dead). In no case does H2 have to compromise, or modify her own behavior, in order reach accommodation with anyone - every conflict is always, entirely the fault of the other party. And it starts early on in the first book.

[multilis]

IMO very subjective, some might find Harry Potter, James T. Kirk, Spock, etc to be Mary Sues. One person's fantasy is another person's science fiction, there isn't that much difference between various telepathic type powers/the force/magic in many usages, or between fantasy or SF other intelligent species.

Here is an example of a fight that only Kirk or perhaps Spock could win... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eFdUSnaQM

[Innis Cabal]

As for the earlier discussion of Blizzard's supposed love for the Zerg, I'd like to point out that Blizzard games always follow the pattern of the good guys winning in the main game and the evil guys winning in the expansion to set up the ground for a sequel.

I fail to see how thats Mary-Sueish...even if it were the case.

[Optimystik]

I fail to see how thats Mary-Sueish...even if it were the case.

I believe he was countering the assertion that Kerrigan's Xanatos Gambit came out of nowhere, making her a Mary Sue.

[Winterwind]

No, just WC3 and Starcraft (okay, I never played Diablo).It is less clear in Diablo 2, but arguably works that way, too.
While the main game in D2 shows that not everything is lost for the evil side, it mostly seems like the Prime Evils have suffered a major defeat, while at the end of the expansion they managed to manipulate everyone into doing something that will change the world in unforeseeable ways (unforeseeable for all except, quite possibly, themselves), and most certainly having harmed the world and its people greatly.


WC1: Orcs win
WC1 expansion: doesn't exist
WC2: Alliance wins
WC2 expansion: Alliance winsYes, granted, I was taking only the newer games into consideration.


I fail to see how thats Mary-Sueish...even if it were the case.It is not. I was saying that Kerrigan and the Zerg winning in the end does not indicate that she/them are Blizzard's favourites and, by extension, Mary Sues, but that it is just a natural part of the pattern Blizzard applies to (most of) their games.

[faceroll]

Yeah, a sacrifice that achieved nothing. The death of the Overmind was pointless, as uncontrolled Zerg proved themselves to be at least as dangerous as normal ones. Because in Starcraft-verse, if you're not a Zerg then the best you can hope for is that you won't be screwed too hard. Succeeding in anything major (except for damage control after you get screwed again)? Hah, you wish! Maybe after the lore stops being written by fanboys of their own friggin' work.

I am not angry or bitter. More like totally disinterested. I'll buy SC II anyway, but not for the story.

Yes, you have identified the Zerg as the major threat in SC. Well done. Though it's sort of like complaining that the Terminator from the Terminator movies are "too strong." Sort of missing the point....


If the Author likes the character but I don't: Mary Sue.

A bad author, perhaps.

[Cespenar]

Though I don't consider Kerrigan as much of a Mary Sue, I did get pissed off when I saw her 'brainwashing' Raszagal just like that (off-screen, to add), who is supposed to be the gorram Matriarch of the Dark Templars, arguably the most elite troops in the Protoss, which, to add, should have minds beyond human ken, as psionics is a staple of their race.

[Weezer]

I would say Kimball Kinnison (Lensmen series by Doc Smith) and to a lesser extent just about every lensman in existence. He's the pinnacle of a ancient races psionic breeding program, he's insanely sneaky, invents some insanly good weapons despite not being an engineer, has super powered mind control/general psychic powers, breaks every setting rule about use of said powers. Oh and not to mention being single handedly responsible for the downfall of an intergalactic empire led by primordial beings.
The only flaws are that hes stupid around girls and is occasionally overconfident. The iconic marty sue if I've ever seen one.

[Drakyn]

Though I don't consider Kerrigan as much of a Mary Sue, I did get pissed off when I saw her 'brainwashing' Raszagal just like that (off-screen, to add), who is supposed to be the gorram Matriarch of the Dark Templars, arguably the most elite troops in the Protoss, which, to add, should have minds beyond human ken, as psionics is a staple of their race.

This sort of thing right here is why some people are putting Kerrigan on this list. She's overhyped as an individual. The zerg being a dangerous force few have issues with, but Kerrigan is something else. She basically gets handed all her power, acts like an idiot for the entire original game and manages to accomplish very little of substance, and then mysteriously ends up getting everyone to do her work for her over and over in brood war. Add that to the way everyone keeps yammering on and on about how big her psychic powers are (apparently one pretty-good human psychic becomes a minor god even relative to protoss, with a little tinkering - which begs the question of why the overmind didn't just snag like six more ghosts and win the whole war right then), especially in more recent stuff, and you've got a recipe for one irritating and smug character.
On the Blizzard tangent, the WC3-SC similarities have an interesting character divide. Part of Kerrigan (gaining great power simply by becoming evil and very snide, then fusing with/becoming an absurdly strong being) is obviously Arthas, but most of her personality is in Sylvanas. It's like they managed to get three separate characters out of one slice. Whether that was a good move is up for debate.

[Knaight]

I would wait to say anything about Kerrigan personally. If she gets taken down hard later in the Starcraft series, due to her own flaws to some extent, then probably not.

Now, onto actual Mary Sue's. The Damned, book 3, Wais(alien species) lead. I love that series, and the author is among my favorites, but this particular character is really bad about it. Not as bad as a lot of examples, but still noticeable. Sure, some of her skills have a reason to be there, but they are taken to absurd levels in some cases. Still a good book, but that character is a Mary Sue, and the Core are all borderline.

[SilverSheriff]

Whats he experienced with?

I HONESTLY don't know what a Skyhopper is, but I have to assume that any vehicle that Luke a small farming family has, is very different from a top of the line starfighter.

The T16 Skyhopper is the Equivalent of a Private Jet with a Laser attached to it.

[Hopeless]

I've seen it suggested that Nanoha Takamachi is a Mary Sue. She's a normal girl who turns out to have the magic potential of an AAA-rank mage for no discernable reason, and invents high-level techniques in the middle of combat. She is apparently smart enough that she can engage in intense telepathic-VR training at all times without it interfering with her everyday activities (even while taking a Maths test). Plus she's adorable.
Nanoha, Fate and Hayate all get high positions in the TSAB in their early twenties, even though it's based in another dimension and the latter two used to be wanted criminals.
Speaking of Hayate, she starts off as a wheelchair-bound classmate of Nanoha's with no magical ability. She ends up being both more powerful and higher-ranked than Nanoha, with four loyal and super-powerful knights two loyal and super-powerful knights, a fairy, a utility caster and a dog. This does, however, mean she is largely restricted to paperwork, and all her spells are so powerful that she must receive special authorisation to use any magic at all, including the evacuation of civilians from the area in which she will be casting.

Okay whats the name of this series and how is it, this is the first time I've heard of it?!

[Optimystik]

Okay whats the name of this series and how is it, this is the first time I've heard of it?!

I assume it's Magical Lyrical Girl Nanoha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Girl_Lyrical_Nanoha)

[Oslecamo]

I assume it's Magical Lyrical Girl Nanoha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Girl_Lyrical_Nanoha)

Also known as the magical girl anime directed exclusively for young-adult males. Wich is kinda creepy in my opinion and may explain why it isn't much known/talked about despite it's amounts of hotbloodness.

[Dervag]

Really, I think 95% of fantasy and SF center around "Mary Sue" protagonists. A better question might be which ones don't?Hmm... that depends on how broad a definition of Sue you use. If anyone who's more competent, intelligent, lucky, or successful than the average Joe is a Sue, then yes, most protagonists in all fiction (not just SF and fantasy) are Sues. But in that case we've made the term so broad that it loses definition; a word which can mean anything means nothing.

Replies about specific settings, indexed by setting:

Ender's Game:

And (Peter and Valentine Wiggin from Ender's Game) dominating the world by being the awesomest blogger even harder...Yeah. In fairness to Card, that was before it was universally understood just what the Internet would be like. I think Card imagined that it would be frequented by influential people, rather than becoming a forum where everyone can talk equally, and where the foolish and the powerless naturally outnumber the smart and powerful.

It was still a bad idea, though.

Honor Harrington: To Sue or Not To Sue?
What about here severe physical trauma in Honor of the Queen? Then mental trama in Field of Dishonor or Flag in Exile? In Enemy Hands entirely?

Or what about the several instances where she doesn't win, or only manages a partial win? Or when here enemies can operate without huge constraints against her, and the do so effectively?

I will admit, as long as you ignore all the times she fails, makes mistakes, or suffers personal trauma, yes, she is entirely perfect and without flaw.The fact that she is physically and mentally able to be harmed, or able to fail, does not automatically save her from Suedom. Take a Mary Sue and have someone chop her arm off and she may very well not stop being a Sue. If she winds up playing the same basic role as before (making effects happen without adequate cause), it's still a problem.

Let's take a look at why reasonable people might accuse Honor Harrington of being a Sue.

Harrington's problems are as follows:
-Over-likable: Anyone in the setting who's worth a damn likes her. Characters who do not like her are generally vile for one reason or another- they're misogynistic, or they're champions of a revolting political doctrine, or they're insane, or they resent her making them look small.
-Power creep: Harrington loses her old flaws and does not pick up new ones over time. Originally, she had real limitations- a temper that came close to destroying her career, a fear of politics and interpersonal confrontation that led her to make very real mistakes. As time went on, she overcame those limits, and got useful new physical abilities (the whole treecat-bond thing), but did not get new flaws to balance those abilities. She still has the temper, but she's now famous and powerful enough that people will humor her, she's long since lost the fear of politics, and so forth.
-Always right: I cannot remember Harrington once being honestly wrong about anything that matters. In general, if she has an opinion, she's right and will be proven right in time, even if no one else agrees with her at the time. If she loses a battle it's because she went in against overwhelming odds, not because she missed something she should (theoretically) have noticed. She's on the political Side Of Light; all opponents are in one way or another the Side Of Darkness. She never places trust and authority with anyone who shouldn't be trusted with it- and not just because she spots people who are treacherous; she seems to avoid relying on anyone who is fallible. Which is less plausible.

To his credit, Weber seems to be aware of those problems and is trying to mitigate them, but at this point the character has expanded to the point where it's hard to do. He (and his collaborator, Flint) seem to be trying to move away from focusing on Harrington to side characters with more flaws and more obvious limitations... and rightly so.

Moreover, Harrington is very well written by Sue standards, being the product of a professional author who's at least decent as a writer. Thus, she doesn't manage to destroy the value and appeal of the books she's in, the way a poorly written Sue can and will. It's just a problem with the books, a flaw, not a sign that they are horrible. Hell, I like them myself.

Starcraft, Kerrigan, and the Zerg:

Dervag had a better discussion about Kerrigan than I could come up with. It's not a Skillful Manipulation if you team up with somebody to achieve a common goal and then stab them in the back, that's just being able to keep a straight face and finding somebody desperate enough to work with you. It dosn't take genius levels of intellect to come up with "We want the same thing, so we work together, once we have achieved that, I don't need you anymore"True to a point. Her ability to do so repeatedly, and to go find these disparate groups and talk to them without getting a Dark Templar warp blade or a Terran siege gun to the face is impressive.

I'd rate Kerrigan as being a very good strategist and diplomat, but not outside the bounds that are reasonable for realistic characters. Real people have managed similar feats, parlaying a small amount of power into a much larger amount of power. It happens.
________


Dervag, you presented some of the Starcraft: Brood War plot as proof that Kerrigan was not a Mary Sue, however I can deduct from the same summary that she actually was a one.

For example:
You have to be a colossal idiot not to believe Aldaris will see you as a traitor for allying with Kerrigan, knowing that Aldaris is an inflexible old fool. A much better reaction to Kerrigan's proposal would be to go "oh, thanks for the info Zerg Queen, now DIE DIE DIE."
(Spoilers deleted; anyone who doesn't know the plot of Brood War by now probably isn't interested in playing the game).Oh, horsefeathers.

First of all, Zeratul and Artanis (the leaders of the Protoss refugees) making a mistake does not make Kerrigan a Mary Sue. If they had done what you say and been so successful at it, you could equally well accuse them of being Mary Sues for never getting anything wrong.

Second, Zeratul and Artanis were in command of a band of desperate refugees. And the planet they thought they could be safe on was in the process of being consumed by the Zerg. They needed all the help they could get; killing Kerrigan would not have helped. She had inside knowledge of how the Zerg worked, as well as at least some Zerg allies of her own. She was a powerful ally.

Third, allying with Kerrigan worked for the Protoss, at least at first: they achieved their objective of destroying the Zerg on Shakuras, with Kerrigan's help. She even risked herself personally to help them retrieve one of the items they needed to do it with.

Fourth, Aldaris' reaction was not a surprise, but that doesn't mean that it should have been allowed to set the Protoss stance towards Kerrigan. Remember that in the main game, Aldaris spent most of the plot being the fanatical loon who nearly got the Protoss all killed.

Of course he's going to think Kerrigan is lying and trying to use the Protoss survivors to her advantage, but he's an idiot, and from Zeratul's point of view he's an idiot who tried to kill him and his best friend. Repeatedly. And that best friend in question? Yeah, he was the hero who actually did save the Protoss (and arguably the galaxy) by destroying the Overmind. And Aldaris tried to have him arrested and executed for allying with... Zeratul. How high an opinion do you think Zeratul has of Aldaris?

Now, that doesn't make him wrong, but it does mean that the Protoss refugee leaders are under no obligation to him. They shouldn't have to compromise their own goals and needs to humor him. In hindsight, Aldaris was right, but that doesn't make him any less of a fanatic, and it doesn't erase the fact that he spent the entire Protoss campaign screwing up the Protoss efforts to fight the Zerg on their old homeworld.


Also, the whole existence of Kerrigan is proof that Blizzard themselves are Zerg fanboys. "The Zerg have an omnipresent, vaguely metaphysical eye-thing as their faction leader - that will not do! Let's abduct some hot chick and give her an evil makeover and make her the new leader after offing the old one in some half-assed way. Oh yeah, I feel titillated. Oh, and the faction she leads will never possibly lose. Even after suffering a huge blow they will still recover easily.Did you even play the same game that I did? I mean, calling the death of the Overmind "half-assed" by itself makes me think you must have been playing some kind of bizarre mis-dubbed beta release of the original Starcraft.

Remember that Blizzard already set up the idea that the Zerg were still a threat even without high-level command (remember Zerg mission 7, where you have to fight the Garm brood after its cerebrate is killed). The Zerg had already heavily infested Aiur; of course they were going to run amok on the planet even without the Overmind.

And yet killing the Overmind still managed to massively disrupt the Zerg offensive strategy, slow down their efforts to assimilate the Protoss, and touched off a civil war within the Zerg that they only managed to survive because one of the faction leaders in that civil war was the spacegoing equivalent of Napoleon.

It just didn't make the Zerg all shrivel up and die instantly like you wanted. Disappointing, I know; what would you rather have had them do for the sequel?

Star Wars: Luke and the X-Wing
You're right, hes ONLY the son of the greatest pilot in the universe (or galaxy, cant find a quote at the moment) Is give his fathers lightsaber, told that he will follow in his destiny ect ect ectIt is, for reference, "etc." from "et cetera."

Remember, those are possible signs of a bad character, not sure ones. Look at what Luke actually accomplishes. He makes a very difficult torpedo shot with the Force, he plays a modest role in some Rebel commando actions (like the raid on Endor), and he convinces his father to kill the Emperor by refusing to kill his father. That's about it. Along the way, he makes mistakes, he relies on the help of his friends, he gets into trouble, he needs lots of help and instructions, and he has to work quite hard to earn people's trust. None of those are typical of the classic Mary Sue.

Luke earns heroism, even if he's given the opportunity to become a hero by advantages of birth and fate. Think about it: nobody's going to accomplish great things without a certain amount of luck on their side. They have to have something going for them. It's not luck that makes a Mary Sue; it's unearned luck- that the luck grants them success for free, without their having to sacrifice and work to succeed. Luke doesn't get much unearned luck.

That's why most people who watch the movie don't decide that he's a bad character, as you apparently have.
______


I wonder if you could make the case that the X-Wing is the Mary-Sue of space fighters.Eh. It's not very maneuverable. Tough and heavily armed, yes; makes a good recon/strike fighter. But for space superiority the only reason it works well is that they put insanely good pilots in it. That's not unprecedented, either; some aces in WWII actually preferred slower, better armed planes because they had the skill to get shots in without a lot of dogfighting and wanted to make those shots as lethal as possible.

[Oslecamo]

Ender's Game:
Yeah. In fairness to Card, that was before it was universally understood just what the Internet would be like. I think Card imagined that it would be frequented by influential people, rather than becoming a forum where everyone can talk equally, and where the foolish and the powerless naturally outnumber the smart and powerful.



Medium nitpick, but powerless flood the internet because the internet indeed makes them stronger.

In real life, if you don't have power, you'll have an hard time geting people to listen to you. You also have an harder time finding other powerless people who may want to team up with you, because it isn't very healthy to admit you're powerless to unknown people.

But in the net? Your real life status matters a lot less. And your words will reach a lot more ears/eyes during a bigger space of time. The chance of geting people to listen to you is increased OVER 9000! Finding other equally minded people with wich to make projects also becomes much easier.

So this allows for smart dudes to indeed acomplish great individual projects, but it also allows for an even greater mob mentality. With minimum effort from millions of people backing each other out, you can acomplish great things. The super D&D optimization guides it's but a small example of this. Linux and other community freeware projects would be a more practical example.

The strongest software companies are based on this super-mob mentality. Microsoft became filthy rich when it understood it would pay off to make low quality computer products that anyone could afford. Google would be nothing whitout the hundreds of millions of people providing information to it by clicking on the web.

As a certain dude once said, quantity has a quality of it's own. And the net allows for much more effecient overwhelming by numbers. They're the anonymous. And they may be foolish, but they're very far from powerless.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Also known as the magical girl anime directed exclusively for young-adult males. Wich is kinda creepy in my opinion and may explain why it isn't much known/talked about despite it's amounts of hotbloodness.

Actually it's more for 30 year old males and it's talked about quite a lot. Just not recently because it's been 2 or so years since they brought out a new anime series.

[Dervag]

Medium nitpick, but powerless flood the internet because the internet indeed makes them stronger...It's not that you're wrong, it's that this isn't what I meant. The Internet makes great technical achievements possible, but as a practical matter Internet discussion doesn't directly influence politics much because the politicians aren't there, while millions of random people of all political stripes are. Being a great blogger doesn't give you as much leverage as Card let it give the Wiggin siblings, because most of your readers are random people who won't act on your proposals, not statesmen-types who will.

In principle, one blogger might achieve so much fame on the Internet that they have major sway in real life, and some of the biggest come close to this, but it's not very practical because there are so many competing blogger-types that no one person can dominate the market. Generally, that only happens when a politician who's already known and respected outside the Net makes a move on the Net, because they already have a real voter base.

So I think it's more accurate to say that the Enderverse has a sort of alternate-universe Internet that's only used by relevant people. As if the Internet had never actually become a popular method of communication, so that the signal-to-noise ratio didn't drown out any attempt to gain influence directly through the Net.

[Foeofthelance]

Oh, the warning signs are there right from the start. The very first book goes out of the way to show that anyone who doesn't adore H2 needs to work out their issues. Alistair McKeon is simply jealous (resolved when the sheer awesomeness of H2 eventually wins him over), Sonja Hemphill turns petty and vindictive when her pet theories are disproven in practice (resolved in later books when she finally has some good ideas), and Pavel Young is just a poster boy for Stupid, Mustache-Twirling, Cartoon Villain Evil (resolved in a later book when H2 shoots him dead). In no case does H2 have to compromise, or modify her own behavior, in order reach accommodation with anyone - every conflict is always, entirely the fault of the other party. And it starts early on in the first book.

Heh, that's the problem with the Honor Harrington series in general. Its not so much that she's a Sue (Which she can be) its that its all pretty much justified:

1) Hemphill doesn't initially like her because of Whitehaven, who is her ideological opposite and Honor's patron of sorts. It is also heavily implied (and later out right stated) that Honor threw a fit in the debriefing on the grav lance after the fight at Basilisk, which from the sounds of things involved everything short of openly insulting Hemphill. Actually resolved when Honor points out to Whitehaven that they do have to compromise with Hemphill, because if it wasn't for some of the toys Hemphill had produced then Honor would have been dead three times over.

2) McKeon and the crew don't like her because the first thing she does as their captain is make them the target of entire Manticore Homefleet during a series of wargames. They got one bright light, then got deliberately stomped all over any and every time. As captain, she was entirely responsible for that, and getting posted to the universe equivalent of the Arctic didn't help morale much either.

3) Ok, yeah, Pavel is a pretty cardboard villain. Since when are villains bad though?

I think the biggest problem isn't so much that Honor has multiple abilities, so much as the more books he writes, the less Weber put any inflection on her negative qualities, such as her temper.

[Tavar]

So I think it's more accurate to say that the Enderverse has a sort of alternate-universe Internet that's only used by relevant people. As if the Internet had never actually become a popular method of communication, so that the signal-to-noise ratio didn't drown out any attempt to gain influence directly through the Net.

Of course, there is a section of the book that deals with how the Whiggin[sic] Children avoid being ignored. Something about getting a citizen's access, then posting articles. Once they build up a following, then they're invited into the debates where what's said actually matters. Similar to how even now Bloggers can get attention on a national level; the children simply managed to keep the attention.

Granted, this does assume that debates happen online that matter, but that's not impossible.

[Foeofthelance]

You know, I wonder if SF doesn't demand a higher portion of Sues because of the more things a character needs to know? I mean, we expect certain things of our protagonists (decent to good looks, a decent to good personality, traces of honor and likeableness so that we're willing to read about them) but then we also expect them to face challenges unknown to current society, like how to chart, fly, and fight in space, how to deal with alien technology, etc.

There was a rant a while back posted by John Ringo about one of his characters in the Looking Glasses series. Character in question is based on Taylor Travis, one of Ringo's cowriters, and is a hotshot scientist who has multiple degrees, is a black belt master in at least one style of martial arts, regularly mountain bikes. The only thing he couldn't do well is shoot.

People complained he was a Mary Sue. Ringo pointed out that not only does Taylor actually have all these degrees and black belts in real life, but Taylor had also been shooting since he was a kid.

Taylor then got accused of writing Mary Sues himself, and pointed out that he bases his characters on real life astronauts, who have to be able to and do all the things his characters do on a regular basis.

So the question is, are we the readers prejudiced when it comes to finding a Mary Sue? How many drawbacks does a character need to have to not count? Or should it instead be a difference between the way authors write?

[BRC]

It's not that you're wrong, it's that this isn't what I meant. The Internet makes great technical achievements possible, but as a practical matter Internet discussion doesn't directly influence politics much because the politicians aren't there, while millions of random people of all political stripes are. Being a great blogger doesn't give you as much leverage as Card let it give the Wiggin siblings, because most of your readers are random people who won't act on your proposals, not statesmen-types who will.

In principle, one blogger might achieve so much fame on the Internet that they have major sway in real life, and some of the biggest come close to this, but it's not very practical because there are so many competing blogger-types that no one person can dominate the market. Generally, that only happens when a politician who's already known and respected outside the Net makes a move on the Net, because they already have a real voter base.

So I think it's more accurate to say that the Enderverse has a sort of alternate-universe Internet that's only used by relevant people. As if the Internet had never actually become a popular method of communication, so that the signal-to-noise ratio didn't drown out any attempt to gain influence directly through the Net.
I think the idea was that the wiggin siblings were so eloquent and brilliant that people began reading their blogs in large enough numbers for them to influence public policy. It's less that the enderverse internet is a tool only used by the powerful and influential, and more that Everybody was reading them,, powerful and influential people included, which is theoretically possible with the modern internet, even if it's unlikely.

Assuming both the Wiggen siblings combined the writing skills of Shakespeare, Thomas Payne and Charles Dickens with the political savvy of Augustus Ceaser, Aristotle and Gandhi, such that everybody who read their essays was convinced of the correctness of their viewpoints, it's possible that their blogs, both put facelessly into the void of the internet could be discovered and spread until they are popular enough that they influence public policy.

Of course, this relies on two things, first of all they need to be discovered somehow. No matter how brilliant their writings, if they just make a blogspot account or whatever, the chances of somebody finding them is very slim. They're working totally anonymously so they can't spread by real-world word of mouth, nor can they advertise in online communities without looking like "Hai guys, I'm Demosthese, and I have a blog".

Of course it's possible that they first used their awesome writing skills and political savvy to build up a reputation in online political discussion communities to get an audience for their blogs. First become respected members of said communities, then start the blog and mention it in said communities, which serve as base audiences to then spread things Via word of mouth, which could theoretically lead to the sort of influence and popularity the books give them.


Of course, this is a very hit or miss process. It relies on a massive amount of luck, and of course, it relies on their writing skills and political savvy being of truly unbelievable levels. Considering that journalists who have a pre-established audience (People who watch and listen to their shows or read whatever publication they writes for), decades of experience and education in journalism and political theory, the marketing power of large corporations, and existing reputations can't achieve anywhere near the popularity and influence these two teenagers working anonymously with little more than an internet connection gain means they would have to be lucky and skilled beyond belief.

[Dervag]

Of course, this is a very hit or miss process. It relies on a massive amount of luck, and of course, it relies on their writing skills and political savvy being of truly unbelievable levels. Considering that journalists who have a pre-established audience (People who watch and listen to their shows or read whatever publication they writes for), decades of experience and education in journalism and political theory, the marketing power of large corporations, and existing reputations can't achieve anywhere near the popularity and influence these two teenagers working anonymously with little more than an internet connection gain means they would have to be lucky and skilled beyond belief.Kind of my point. This wouldn't work unless the Internet were a much smaller place than it is in real life, one where two random anonymous people are less likely to be lost in the noise rather than getting to become the signal.


People complained he was a Mary Sue. Ringo pointed out that not only does Taylor actually have all these degrees and black belts in real life, but Taylor had also been shooting since he was a kid.

Taylor then got accused of writing Mary Sues himself, and pointed out that he bases his characters on real life astronauts, who have to be able to and do all the things his characters do on a regular basis.The only exception who comes to my mind is Miriam, who's... a little over the top. If she's even slightly based on a real person by God I'd like to meet her, but I have a difficult time believing it.

What really bugged me is how good she is with CAD software...

[Foeofthelance]

\
The only exception who comes to my mind is Miriam, who's... a little over the top. If she's even slightly based on a real person by God I'd like to meet her, but I have a difficult time believing it.

What really bugged me is how good she is with CAD software...

Miriam is actually based on Ringo's girlfriend, who I've met. The honest reality is....yes she does act and dress that way, at least at conventions. Ringo's also made mention that people ask for her at her job by referring to her as "that Goth chick", so take it for what you will.