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Nich_Critic
2010-01-26, 11:45 AM
I'm starting a campaign where fullcasters are banned. Essentially, the most powerful casters will be bards and adepts.

My friend, who tends to like playing high powered characters, wants to play a bard and take the hellbred race, focused on spirit. I'm ok with the race in general, except for the level 10 and level 16 abilities.

At level 10, the hellbred gets the ability to see perfectly well in all darkness, even magical. This seems to me to be a difficult ability to reproduce, and isn't a balanced feature for a +10 race, compared to what the PH races get. The player pointed out that a tiefling incarnate can get it as a substitution level, but that serves to reinforce my point (gives up class features, must be a particular class to get it).

The level 16 ability gives him 100 ft telepathy, removing the primary weakness of the bard class (able to be silenced). I'm aware that he can get the same with a mind bender level, but that requires a skill and level investment, and this he's getting for free. Again, even though he gets it late, it's a racial bonus that far exceeds what a player gets in core.

The Hellbred isn't lacking for other features. Is it a reasonable request that he not get these features? His argument is that if I remove those features he's better off picking a different race with other features, but I find that silly because a) His example was dwarf for ignoring heavy armor and poison resist, but I don't believe he'd take that, because of the -2 cha (a large reason for taking the hellbred is the +2 cha), and b) If he found a race that gave him better abilities then those, I'm likely to contest those abilities as well.

What do you think. Am I out of line on this one?

JeenLeen
2010-01-26, 11:51 AM
Does telepathy take the place of a vocal component for a spell? It's not people hearing you that is important for a vocal component, but rather the creation of sound as part of the spell, or so I thought.

I suppose it could be argued that you could use your Bardic Music abilities if your specialty was song--singing via telepathy. But even then the skill is modulation and control of one's voice, not one's thoughts.


For the seeing ability: I don't know. Darkvision is common, but seeing in magical darkness is rather rare. I don't know if it would come up enough to matter greatly, though; but as DM you should have an idea if that would be overpowering or make some challenges you expect to give too easy.

EDIT: of course, as DM, even if a Bard could use telepathy for vocal components, you can houserule that they cannot, thus making the telepathy not as powerful. That could be a good compromise.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-26, 11:52 AM
Where's the hellbred race located, what's his Bard focusing on, and what's everyone else playing?

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-01-26, 12:06 PM
I classify hellbred as 3.75. . . along with dragonborn and spellscales and raptorans. . . they're just more powerful than other base races.

if everyone in the party is a 3.75 race then by all means let him do it, if everyone else is a phb race then yeah nerf it a little bit.

My advice

at 10 just take away the magical darkness aspect so that they still get great darkvision, just not magical darkvision.

at 16 make it detect thoughts instead. way less powerfull.

HCL
2010-01-26, 12:07 PM
It has a constitution penalty. And its a bard. You'll be fine.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-26, 12:14 PM
I classify hellbred as 3.75. . . along with dragonborn and spellscales and raptorans. . . they're just more powerful than other base races. ...Spellscales have a cha-bonus, a con-penalty, and a few minor benefits. They're not in any way OP. They're very similar to what a Grey Elf brings to the table, but weaker. Dragonborn is a nice template, but outside of a few edge cases, it doesn't really affect power in one way or the other. Raptorans get a 3rd-level spell at ECL 5 and a 5th level spell at ECL 10. Humans, meanwhile, are getting Power Attack or Quicken or Precocious Apprentice. Yeah, if that's the level of Hellbred, I wouldn't worry about it.

Ernir
2010-01-26, 12:17 PM
Eh, it's not something I'd worry about. Yes, these aren't exactly common racial features. Neither is martial weapon proficiency with a longbow. I wouldn't worry about either unbalancing the game, there are considerably more powerful races out there.


Where's the hellbred race located, what's his Bard focusing on, and what's everyone else playing?

One of the Fiendish Codexes. II, if I recall.


I classify hellbred as 3.75. . . along with dragonborn and spellscales and raptorans. . . they're just more powerful than other base races.
I'd still place Humans quite a bit above any of these on the power curve. =/

Especially for a Bard.

BardicDuelist
2010-01-26, 12:17 PM
It has a constitution penalty. And its a bard. You'll be fine.

This, basically. A con penalty is rough. Really rough in 3.5, as con is the one stat that every class needs to be decent. At levels 10 and 15, those abilities aren't that powerful. They're powerful at lower levels, but that's why you don't get them then.

If you're worried about not being able to silence a bard, look at it from a different perspective. Don't worry about not being able to exploit a weakness in a character's class. Worry about making the encounters challenging without this. Honestly, at levels over 10, if the group lacks a dedicated caster (seems to be part of your plan), the game's challenging enough without worrying about nerfing a class.

Edit: And while Hellbred are good and have interesting mechanics, humans are still, by far, the most powerful LA+0 race for any class out there. The only exception is for full casters, where they want to get a bonus to their primary spellcasting stat. Since you're not playing with full casters, again, you'll have no problems.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-26, 12:18 PM
I wouldn't worry tomuch about hell bred...
Though i would rule that telepathy doesn't work with bardic music...
As to me that doesn't make any sense.

as far as the magical darkness thing that i wouldn't think would be as big of a deal... especaly where adepts i belive get blind. and or other bards get glitter dust?

faceroll
2010-01-26, 12:23 PM
...Spellscales have a cha-bonus, a con-penalty, and a few minor benefits. They're not in any way OP. They're very similar to what a Grey Elf brings to the table, but weaker. Dragonborn is a nice template, but outside of a few edge cases, it doesn't really affect power in one way or the other. Raptorans get a 3rd-level spell at ECL 5 and a 5th level spell at ECL 10. Humans, meanwhile, are getting Power Attack or Quicken or Precocious Apprentice. Yeah, if that's the level of Hellbred, I wouldn't worry about it.

Most of those comparisons aren't very important, considering the OP's houserules. Ebon Eyes are a second level power and a least (lesser?) invocation, for instance. But in a game without full casters, seeing in a deeper darkness effect becomes much more difficult.

However, I agree with you that a human's bonus feat is far more powerful than two nifty abilities at levels that you may never see if you start at level 1.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-26, 12:24 PM
After reviewing the Hellbred, it is good. That said, there's better LA 0 races out there(Human, Warforged, Whisper Gnome, Dorf), so I'd allow it. It's at least a flavorful race, rather than most of them which give nothing beyond slightly different numbers and ears.

Edit: MAGICAL DARKNESS ISN'T BLACK! You can still see through it, just not as far, and attacks have a miss chance. A Bard won't make attacks and will probably be looking through the majority of the effect, so it won't matter. Are people really going to say this race is OP because it beats a 1st level spell?

Lysander
2010-01-26, 12:26 PM
Seeing through magical darkness isn't that big of a deal. Rememeber, magical darkness just provides concealment. It doesn't blind people. Seeing through magical darkness would just allow your bard to avoid a 20% miss chance if magical darkness even comes up.

Telepathy wouldn't help for bardic music or vocal components of spells. It might help them for diplomacy checks though, allowing them to communicate with enemies without revealing their position, and it's just useful for silent communication among the group. The party would never need to whisper, they could just relay messages through the bard's telepathy.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-01-26, 12:31 PM
A Warlock 1 can see in magical darkness all day long. The Baator planar domain in Spell Compendium grants the ability to see in magical darkness. The spell Ebon Eyes (Assassin 1, Cleric 1, Sor/Wiz 1) grants the ability to see through magical darkness. As you said, a Tiefling Incarnate can gain the ability as well. A magical item which grants a constant effect of Ebon Eyes would cost only 3,000 gp, easily affordable by level ten. The ability to see in magical darkness is easily obtainable if you go looking for it, and nowhere near as good as something like Blindsense, Tremorsense, or even Scent. Don't worry about this one at all, taking it away will make you look unfair.

Telepathy doesn't work the way you think it does. He cannot use Inspire Courage or any other bardic music via Telepathy, he cannot cast spells via Telepathy, so it does nothing to thwart Silence effects in combat. Dipping a single level in Mindbender is extremely easy to do, especially with a Bard. If you remove this ability from the race, you'll just see him dip Mindbender and get it anyway, and probably much sooner than he otherwise would have. Don't worry so much about it, it shows up so late that it won't really matter any more and as above, taking it away will only look like unfair treatment.

faceroll
2010-01-26, 01:29 PM
Seeing through magical darkness isn't that big of a deal. Rememeber, magical darkness just provides concealment. It doesn't blind people. Seeing through magical darkness would just allow your bard to avoid a 20% miss chance if magical darkness even comes up.

It can be a pretty big deal, either offensively or defensively. On the offensive side, it's free sneak attacks, and denies enemies the ability to make AoOs against you, so you can move about combat with impunity. On the defensive side, it's like getting 20% more HP and, again, lets you move without provoking.

At level 10, though, it's not really that big a deal. Having -2 con is going to hurt.


A Warlock 1 can see in magical darkness all day long. The Baator planar domain in Spell Compendium grants the ability to see in magical darkness. The spell Ebon Eyes (Assassin 1, Cleric 1, Sor/Wiz 1) grants the ability to see through magical darkness. As you said, a Tiefling Incarnate can gain the ability as well. A magical item which grants a constant effect of Ebon Eyes would cost only 3,000 gp, easily affordable by level ten. The ability to see in magical darkness is easily obtainable if you go looking for it, and nowhere near as good as something like Blindsense, Tremorsense, or even Scent. Don't worry about this one at all, taking it away will make you look unfair.

I believe all but assassin would be banned in his game, and assassin has that "must be evil" entry requirement. So it might not be that easily obtainable.

sofawall
2010-01-26, 01:49 PM
It can be a pretty big deal, either offensively or defensively. On the offensive side, it's free sneak attacks, and denies enemies the ability to make AoOs against you, so you can move about combat with impunity. On the defensive side, it's like getting 20% more HP and, again, lets you move without provoking.

At level 10, though, it's not really that big a deal. Having -2 con is going to hurt.



I believe all but assassin would be banned in his game, and assassin has that "must be evil" entry requirement. So it might not be that easily obtainable.

Yay magic items?

faceroll
2010-01-26, 01:51 PM
Yay magic items?

I don't know of any items that let you see through magical darkness.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-26, 01:57 PM
I don't know of any items that let you see through magical darkness.Item of Ebon Eyes. Also, WARLOCK 1. And rarity of an effect !=power. When did you last see Timeless Body mentioned as OP?

sofawall
2010-01-26, 02:00 PM
I don't know of any items that let you see through magical darkness.
Biffoniacus_Furiou does :P

A magical item which grants a constant effect of Ebon Eyes would cost only 3,000 gp, easily affordable by level ten.

Alternatively, eternal wands. Alternatively, normal wands. Alternatively, a scroll. Alternatively, runestaff.

EDIT: And, agreeing with the above, sure, immunity to magical darkness is nice when it comes up, but I have yet to have it come up in a game I've played, and it rarely comes up elsewhere, mainly due to the fact that Darkness tends to suck in 3.5 and people don't realize that there are spells that create proper darkness, so they don't use it.

faceroll
2010-01-26, 02:06 PM
Item of Ebon Eyes.

I'll put that with my continuous item of Wraithstrike and True Strike.


Also, WARLOCK 1.

Also, full caster (9th level spell effects). Though, if it's allowed, then yeah, seeing in darkness is super easy.


And rarity of an effect !=power. When did you last see Timeless Body mentioned as OP?

It's not that rare of an effect, looking at ALL the rules. Looking at these particular rules, yeah, it is a pretty rare effect. It's really not that powerful, though, given that you have to be level 10 to get it, you're taking a con penalty, and there really aren't a whole lot of things you could do with bard 10 to make a build out of it. I would probably go gnome, dwarf, or human over hellbred.

Telepathy at fifteen, combined with mindsight, is what I would worry about. That's pretty crazy stuff, especially in a setting without easy access to mindblank. At level 15, in a typical campaign, that's not really that out there, but considering the rarity of effects in a half-caster only campaign, it becomes significant.


Alternatively, eternal wands. Alternatively, normal wands. Alternatively, a scroll. Alternatively, runestaff.

Sure, if you want to use UMD. Except for eternal wands- anyone with spellcasting can use those, right?


EDIT: And, agreeing with the above, sure, immunity to magical darkness is nice when it comes up, but I have yet to have it come up in a game I've played, and it rarely comes up elsewhere, mainly due to the fact that Darkness tends to suck in 3.5 and people don't realize that there are spells that create proper darkness, so they don't use it.

Huh. Darkness effects get used a lot in both the games I run and the ones I play in. It's super annoying and can be quite deadly, when combined with precision damage and highly mobile combatants. I imagine that without easy access to high level spell effects, it would only be more dangerous.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-26, 02:10 PM
I'll put that with my continuous item of Wraithstrike and True Strike.Who said Continuous? Heck, grab it on a scroll or 1/day. How often does magical darkness come up in non-drow games?

Edit: ninja-edits are annoying. Please don't. If you have ti as very common, then that's different, but even then, the opponents are affected by it, too. It's not that great an effect for either side.
Also, full caster (9th level spell effects). Though, if it's allowed, then yeah, seeing in darkness is super easy.Warlock is not a full-caster. It's an archer with a couple tricks. They don't get 9th level spell effects, they barely get 6th level ones.
Telepathy at fifteen, combined with mindsight, is what I would worry about. That's pretty crazy stuff, especially in a setting without easy access to mindblank. At level 15, in a typical campaign, that's not really that out there, but considering the rarity of effects in a half-caster only campaign, it becomes significant.Mindbender 1. Or Ghostwise Halfling. Or Buomenn. All get it earlier and easier.

sofawall
2010-01-26, 02:11 PM
I'll put that with my continuous item of Wraithstrike and True Strike.



Also, full caster (9th level spell effects). Though, if it's allowed, then yeah, seeing in darkness is super easy.



It's not that rare of an effect, looking at ALL the rules. Looking at these particular rules, yeah, it is a pretty rare effect. It's really not that powerful, though, given that you have to be level 10 to get it, you're taking a con penalty, and there really aren't a whole lot of things you could do with bard 10 to make a build out of it. I would probably go gnome, dwarf, or human over hellbred.

Telepathy at fifteen, combined with mindsight, is what I would worry about. That's pretty crazy stuff, especially in a setting without easy access to mindblank. At level 15, in a typical campaign, that's not really that out there, but considering the rarity of effects in a half-caster only campaign, it becomes significant.



Sure, if you want to use UMD. Except for eternal wands- anyone with spellcasting can use those, right?



Huh. Darkness effects get used a lot in both the games I run and the ones I play in. It's super annoying and can be quite deadly, when combined with precision damage and highly mobile combatants. I imagine that without easy access to high level spell effects, it would only be more dangerous.

Greenscale Naga. I see all minds, ever, for 1 LA and a feat.

Xenogears
2010-01-26, 02:13 PM
Item of Ebon Eyes. Also, WARLOCK 1. And rarity of an effect !=power. When did you last see Timeless Body mentioned as OP?

While manipulating Reincarnate, thought bottles, and a Time-Altered Plane to get +A LOT to all your mental stats in what seems like a second to everyone else? But that takes a lot of work and is a pretty niche example...

faceroll
2010-01-26, 02:17 PM
Who said Continuous? Heck, grab it on a scroll or 1/day. How often does magical darkness come up in non-drow games?

Quite frequently in mine.


Warlock is not a full-caster. It's an archer with a couple tricks. They don't get 9th level spell effects, they barely get 6th level ones.

An 18th level Warlock's eldritch blasts are treated as 9th level spells.


Mindbender 1. Or Ghostwise Halfling. Or Buomenn. All get it earlier and easier.

How does that make the effect any less powerful?
Wizards get Gate, Gate is a powerful effect. However, clerics, archivists, stp erudites, and artificers also get Gate. Therefore, Gate is not powerful.


Greenscale Naga. I see all minds, ever, for 1 LA and a feat.

Kobold paladin 1. I do everything, ever, go me. See above for why that's a silly argument.

Nich_Critic
2010-01-26, 02:20 PM
Warlock is likely not allowed due to the casting restriction. I'm aware that they aren't on par with full casters, but under this variant they'd be more powerful then most alternatives.

Thanks for all the quick and detailed replies. What we ended up working out is deeper darkvision limited to 30ft, comparable to blind sense, and telepathy can not be used for bardic music. I'm awaiting his reply, but I'm expecting it to go favorably.

The other characters will likely be playing core races. I have one at least who's playing a gray elf scout/ranger. The other two aren't optimizers, so I'm expecting to have to bump them up in power rather then nerf them.

Besides human (which I agree is on the higher end of power for a race), I don't think I would allow most of the races listed for comparison, so that should give an idea of how strong I want a race to be.

Edit: Also, I banned mindsight