Question of reincarnation and PrCs

[VestigeArcanist]

What will happen if you have levels in a racial specific prestige class, say shadowcraft mage, and die (or kill yourself). After attain the appropriate materials, your local driud casts reincarnate on you, bringing you soul home to a new body... an elf! Would you still have the levels you took as a gnome, and would you be able to continue down that path, though you no longer fill all the racial prereq? Or do you still fill the racial requirements, since you are, in effect, a gnome in an elf's body?

[Optimystik]

The general rule is that if you cease to meet the prerequisites for a PrC for any reason, you lose all special abilities associated with those PrC levels.

For reincarnation - you are not a gnome in an elf's body - you are an elf.
The spell specifically states "it is no longer of its previous race."

For your specific example, though, you should be fine - Shadowcraft Mage is not gnome-only if you simply use the adaptation section. With that, you can make an Elven SCM without even dying.

[Frozen_Feet]

I have no idea about either RAI or RAW, but I'd let keep the class because the alternative is too much trouble.

[Xenogears]

Depends. In Complete Warrior and Mage (IIRC) it says you lose all benefits if you no longer qualify. This can cause lots of problems with other PrC's however. Generally there are three views on it.

A) Ignore the Rule. It is stupid except to prevent using magic items to qualify for PrCs.

B) The rule only applies to the PrC's in those books. This is more in line with RAW than A and is kind of a middle ground.

C) Apply it to everything. Dragon Disciple is both a dragon and not a dragon but who cares the class sucks anyway.

My take would be to let you keep the class. Screwing the players over should be avoided 99% of the time.

[Optimystik]

My take would be to let you keep the class. Screwing the players over should be avoided 99% of the time.

Let me be devil's advocate for a second, since I already said he should keep Shadowcraft Mage. He should be allowed to keep it, not because Reincarnation provides an end-run around racial requirements, but because the class itself allows non-gnomes to enter.

If you simply rule that grabbing a new body can circumvent racial requirements, however, then where does it end? Half-Elf Dwarven Defenders? Human Warforged Juggernauts? Half-Orc Atavists?

[Totally Guy]

Is the same true for Racial Paragons?

[Xenogears]

Let me be devil's advocate for a second, since I already said he should keep Shadowcraft Mage. He should be allowed to keep it, not because Reincarnation provides an end-run around racial requirements, but because the class itself allows non-gnomes to enter.

If you simply rule that grabbing a new body can circumvent racial requirements, however, then where does it end? Half-Elf Dwarven Defenders? Human Warforged Juggernauts? Half-Orc Atavists?

Depends. Warforged Juggernaut has body mods that dont transfer well to a new body. The DM and player should figure out a mutually acceptable compromise.

Dwarven Defender teaches new methods of combat. So yeah dwarf in a half-elvf's body should still retain knowledge and keep those class features.

I have no idea what the atavist class is so I can offer nothing there.

[Eloel]

Is the same true for Racial Paragons?

Yes, you worked for the elven culture and ethics, no matter if you're in a gnome body, you still keep your knowledge of the culture and the secret ways of the race.

[valadil]

According to the rules I think you would no longer qualify for the PrC. As a GM I'd allow it to continue to function (although it might take time to relearn). I'd rather have a cool and unique PC than a disgruntled one whose build broke.

[Optimystik]

Depends. Warforged Juggernaut has body mods that dont transfer well to a new body. The DM and player should figure out a mutually acceptable compromise.

The modifications are not purely physical. WJs undergo significant psychological changes as well, embracing the construct side of their nature and abandoning the "living" part. It would be metaphysically impossible to transfer the idea of "the perfect construct" over to any living body. Similarly, implanting the psyche of a living creature into a Juggernaut is an inherent contradiction. A humanoid soul cannot grasp the concept of being the perfect construct, not without giving up its organic nature entirely.

This is a problem with many racial PrCs. They are so designed around the concept of exemplifying some aspect of their race (mentally, in addition to physically) that they just shouldn't be able to work without that constant in place.


Dwarven Defender teaches new methods of combat. So yeah dwarf in a half-elve's body should still retain knowledge and keep those class features.

The same difficulty above arises here - these methods of combat are designed for a dwarven body. No Half-Elf has the stability and low-center of gravity needed to become a living obstacle like a DwD can. No half-elf has the connection with stone and earth needed to draw upon that extranormal stability. It is not merely a series of exercises, it is a fundamental technique based around both the physique of a dwarf and his metaphysical connection to his race's ideals.


I have no idea what the atavist class is so I can offer nothing there.

Atavist is a PrC for Kalashtar, based around drawing out psychic inner strength through their race's connection with the Quori spirits inside them. As only a Kalashtar mind can successfully hold a Quori spirit, it would be impossible for any other race to take this PrC, even if it was a Kalashtar originally - their brains simply aren't equipped to play lifetime jailer.

[Xenogears]

The modifications are not purely physical. WJs undergo significant psychological changes as well, embracing the construct side of their nature and abandoning the "living" part. It would be metaphysically impossible to transfer the idea of "the perfect construct" over to any living body. Similarly, implanting the psyche of a living creature into a Juggernaut is an inherent contradiction. A humanoid soul cannot grasp the concept of being the perfect construct, not without giving up its organic nature entirely.

This is a problem with many racial PrCs. They are so designed around the concept of exemplifying some aspect of their race (mentally, in addition to physically) that they just shouldn't be able to work without that constant in place.

Thats why I said the DM and player would have to work it out. The psychological changes wouldn't matter for a warforged turned into a human though. Mentally they still know what it's like to want and embrace the perfect construct ideal. Just because their body can no longer do that is not important.




The same difficulty above arises here - these methods of combat are designed for a dwarven body. No Half-Elf has the stability and low-center of gravity needed to become a living obstacle like a DwD can. No half-elf has the connection with stone and earth needed to draw upon that extranormal stability. It is not merely a series of exercises, it is a fundamental technique based around both the physique of a dwarf and his metaphysical connection to his race's ideals.

Well if you go with the Shortest and Heaviest Half-Elf they are only slightly taller (and much heavier...) than a Tall and Skinny Dwarf. The tall and skinny dwarf can still be a Dwarven Defender so Physical body size shouldn't be an obstacle. I bolded the word metaphysical because it is important here. If it is Metaphysical then it has nothing to do with the physical body. It is basically a function of the Dwarven Soul and therefore still part of the Reincarnated Dwarf.



Atavist is a PrC for Kalashtar, based around drawing out psychic inner strength through their race's connection with the Quori spirits inside them. As only a Kalashtar mind can successfully hold a Quori spirit, it would be impossible for any other race to take this PrC, even if it was a Kalashtar originally - their brains simply aren't equipped to play lifetime jailer.

I don't see why the Kalashtars mind would change. If there is an actual organ or something in their brain to cage the spirit it is one thing but if it is a "your puny mind cannot handle this" then they should be able to handle it just fine.

[Rixx]

I'd say you don't lose the abilities, but you can no longer advance in that class.

[Optimystik]

@WJ: They can think of embracing whatever ideal they like, as long as they do not get the abilities that come with it. I have no problems with half-elves thinking they are dwarven defenders, so long as they get none of the actual abilities that go along with it.

@ DWD: Knowing a technique (or techniques) is useless if it's designed for a body you no longer have.

@ Atavists: Given that Kalashtar were bred and cultivated for millennia to house the Quori, I'd say that yes, they've developed physical structures or mental circuitry that allow them to do so, that other races simply don't have.

Xeno, I don't think we're going to agree on the fluff aspect of it. But the RAW is quite clear - "he is no longer of his previous race" - you might have most of the memories of your dwarven life, but you are not a dwarf - therefore, no Dwar-onlyf PrCs.

Furthermore, this entire discussion is irrelevant to the OP's situation, because Elves can be Shadowcraft Magi just fine.

[sofawall]

Thats why I said the DM and player would have to work it out. The psychological changes wouldn't matter for a warforged turned into a human though. Mentally they still know what it's like to want and embrace the perfect construct ideal. Just because their body can no longer do that is not important.




Well if you go with the Shortest and Heaviest Half-Elf they are only slightly taller (and much heavier...) than a Tall and Skinny Dwarf. The tall and skinny dwarf can still be a Dwarven Defender so Physical body size shouldn't be an obstacle. I bolded the word metaphysical because it is important here. If it is Metaphysical then it has nothing to do with the physical body. It is basically a function of the Dwarven Soul and therefore still part of the Reincarnated Dwarf.



I don't see why the Kalashtars mind would change. If there is an actual organ or something in their brain to cage the spirit it is one thing but if it is a "your puny mind cannot handle this" then they should be able to handle it just fine.


You do know that there are things hard-wired into the human brain that effects how we think? For example, Warforged Juggernaut taps into Construct side of himself. As a human, the construct mind would still be there, right? Maybe not. It could be completely a function of being in the body of a construct. Maybe the mind is totally alive and humanoid?

[Xenogears]

You do know that there are things hard-wired into the human brain that effects how we think? For example, Warforged Juggernaut taps into Construct side of himself. As a human, the construct mind would still be there, right? Maybe not. It could be completely a function of being in the body of a construct. Maybe the mind is totally alive and humanoid?

DnD does not reflect this though. Especially the Reincarnate spell. Your mental abilities are unchanged. So that means even if you reincarnate into something like a black Ethergaunt that are born smarter than the smartest human you are still Smelly McDumb the Pig-Farmer with a 4 Int. So clearly, in DnD, your mind is entirely seperate from your brain. Thus the Kalashtar should retain the ability as should the Warforged (for the non-physical parts).

[tyckspoon]

So clearly, in DnD, your mind is entirely seperate from your brain. Thus the Kalashtar should retain the ability as should the Warforged (for the non-physical parts).

You Reincarnate into the same Type anyway (the spell mentions that the DM should draw up a new chart if you use it on something other than a humanoid.) I'm not currently aware of any other things a Warforged could reincarnate to other than another variety of Warforged, as the Living Construct subtype is fairly rare.

[Optimystik]

You Reincarnate into the same Type anyway (the spell mentions that the DM should draw up a new chart if you use it on something other than a humanoid.) I'm not currently aware of any other things a Warforged could reincarnate to other than another variety of Warforged, as the Living Construct subtype is fairly rare.

Green Star Ade- *is shot*

[Xenogears]

Technically Living Construct is a subtype. So you should make a chart full of Constructs. Except constructs can't be reincarnated. So maybe it doesn't work on warforged? Or maybe they just shuffle between warforged and warforged scout?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Concerning the Atavist.. there is a class in IIRC Secret's of Sarlona that teaches you to house a quori spirit (Quori mind hunter I believe it is called), would it be sensible to let enter a Quori Mindhunter (after it finishes the Prg class) into Atavist?

[Jack_Simth]

As a DM, my standard table ruling for such situations is as follows:

If a prerequisite for a PrC is forcibly removed from you (such as with Baelful Polymorph, reincarnation, attribute drain, and so on), you can no longer advance in that PrC until the requirement is restored, but keep anything that doesn't seem exceptionally closely tied to that requirement (so the Blackgaurd who's STR is reduced below the point where he can use Power Attack doesn't lose his Dark Blessing, but an Arcane Trickster who loses his spellbook and can no longer cast Mage Hand can't pull off Ranged Legerdemain anymore).

If you voluntarily relinquish a prerequisite for a PrC (such as trading feats or skills through Psychic Reformation) then you lose all benefits of the PrC beyond saves, BAB, and hit dice until the requirement is restored - so the Wizard-15/Archmage-5 that hires a Psion to use Psychic Reformation to trade out Skill Focus(Spellcraft) for Sudden Maximize loses access to his 9th level spells. Note: If you were mind-controlled into it, it qualifies under "forcibly removed" unless the mind-control seems "friendly".

In the case of Reincarnate, unless he seemed to be planning on getting himself killed and turned into something else, I'd treat as "forcibly removed".


Green Star Ade- *is shot*
I keep hearing of that PrC, but I never seem to hear of anyone actually making use of it; are you sure it actually exists?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I keep hearing of that PrC [Green Star Adept], but I never seem to hear of anyone actually making use of it; are you sure it actually exists?

Check Complete arcane.

[KillianHawkeye]

A little something from reincarnate that everyone's overlooked:

A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged.

As written, a reincarnated Dwarven Defender will retain its class and class abilities. It's up to the DM whether or not they can still progress in the class or not.

[Jack_Simth]

Check Complete arcane.
Oh, I understand it's printed, sure. But does it ever see the light of play?

[Optimystik]

Concerning the Atavist.. there is a class in IIRC Secret's of Sarlona that teaches you to house a quori spirit (Quori mind hunter I believe it is called), would it be sensible to let enter a Quori Mindhunter (after it finishes the Prg class) into Atavist?

Quori Mindhunter is actually in Magic of Eberron, but the prereq for Atavist is still "Race: Kalashtar."


As written, a reincarnated Dwarven Defender will retain its class and class abilities. It's up to the DM whether or not they can still progress in the class or not.

Actually, that line is irrelevant. The exact rule is that you lose the benefit of class abilities if you fail the prerequisites, not that you lose those abilities themselves.

It's just like having a feat you later fail to meet the prereqs for - you still have the feat, but can't use it. (e.g. a fighter whose strength is drained below 13, can't Power Attack anymore, but still has the ability.)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Quori Mindhunter is actually in Magic of Eberron, but the prereq for Atavist is still "Race: Kalashtar."


Forgot about that part.

[Nate the Snake]

Quori Mindhunter is actually in Magic of Eberron, but the prereq for Atavist is still "Race: Kalashtar."

Personally, I'd let non-kalashtar Quori Mindhunters qualify for Atavist as long as they have the Dual Mind ability and refluff the Atavist's Spiritual Lineage feature appropriately.

By similar logic, I'd also allow non-changeling egoist psions that have Minor Change Shape as an ACF to qualify for Cabinet Trickster (and other feats/PrCs based on the ability).


Technically Living Construct is a subtype. So you should make a chart full of Constructs. Except constructs can't be reincarnated. So maybe it doesn't work on warforged? Or maybe they just shuffle between warforged and warforged scout?

I seem to recall reading in an Eberron splatbook that warforged reincarnate as humanoids. The idea was that reincarnate creates an organic body for the warforged's soul to inhabit. The flip side was that nothing, not even a warforged, could reincarnate as a warforged.


I don't see why the Kalashtars mind would change. If there is an actual organ or something in their brain to cage the spirit it is one thing but if it is a "your puny mind cannot handle this" then they should be able to handle it just fine.


So clearly, in DnD, your mind is entirely seperate from your brain. Thus the Kalashtar should retain the ability as should the Warforged (for the non-physical parts).

Kalashtar had a special note about reincarnation too. A kalashtar who reincarnates as a human becomes a kalashtar again, and only kalashtar can reincarnate as kalashtar.


DnD does not reflect this though. Especially the Reincarnate spell. Your mental abilities are unchanged.

Now I want to make a lesser aasimar (+2 Wis, +2 Cha) who reincarnates as a bugbear (+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, keeps mental stats).

As a side note, reincarnate apparently also waives RHD/LA. :smallconfused: