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Tinydwarfman
2010-01-26, 07:22 PM
I have been looking for a system to replace D&D for a while now, while still keeping the feel of rule of cool fantasy stuff. I stumbled upon the Iron Heroes beta online recently and it looked very cool, but a bit lacking in some areas. I would like to know :

A) Have you played Iron Heroes? Is it any good?

B) If the actual book is worth buying.

C) Other suggestions for games
(note: I already have and love GURPS, but I am looking for something D&D-like for other players who like it)

Thanks in advance!

Swordgleam
2010-01-26, 07:42 PM
I love Iron Heroes. It's fantastic in every way. (Unless you don't like low-magic, in which case, use something else.)

I play a man-at-arms 6 / berserker 1, and it's a ton of fun. You can't be incompetent if you're a man-at-arms - take weapons master if you want a class that you don't have to put much effort into your build. So there's options no matter how much you want to get into the rules. It's just a great game.

I'm not sure what you mean by the actual book. It is good to have the rules for the system you're playing. They help considerably.

Umael
2010-01-26, 07:49 PM
I love the way that Iron Heroes handles magic.

It's dangerous stuff! Don't use it!

Unfortunately, I had to end a game because the players couldn't get together often enough, so the adventure kinda sagged. *sigh*

Cieyrin
2010-01-26, 08:32 PM
I love the way that Iron Heroes handles magic.

It's dangerous stuff! Don't use it!

It's a bit more like "It's Dangerous Stuff! Why would you want to use it!?! Have some rules for it, though, if you really still want some magic in your game.":smallbiggrin:

Irregardless, Iron Heroes is fun times and I thoroughly enjoy the book, which I recommend you acquire if you'd like to play it, as I'm not aware of an online SRD for it. Plus, playing by SRD would get rather annoying rather quickly.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-26, 08:51 PM
I love Iron Heroes. It's fantastic in every way. (Unless you don't like low-magic, in which case, use something else.)

I play a man-at-arms 6 / berserker 1, and it's a ton of fun. You can't be incompetent if you're a man-at-arms - take weapons master if you want a class that you don't have to put much effort into your build. So there's options no matter how much you want to get into the rules. It's just a great game.

I'm not sure what you mean by the actual book. It is good to have the rules for the system you're playing. They help considerably.

Sorry, should have clarified, I read the beta version online and was wondering if you guys thought it was worth it to buy the books and supplements. I HAVE heard that it has atrocious rules for magic. How true is this, and how hard would it be to sub in the D&D magic system or modify it?

Cieyrin
2010-01-26, 09:07 PM
Sorry, should have clarified, I read the beta version online and was wondering if you guys thought it was worth it to buy the books and supplements. I HAVE heard that it has atrocious rules for magic. How true is this, and how hard would it be to sub in the D&D magic system or modify it?

IIRC, there's a conversion guide in the back of teh book that goes from 3.5 to Iron Heroes and back. So, you could have other magics in with your Iron Heroes but Iron Heroes is balanced against low magic settings, as they're designed to work without magic items or spells of any sort.

The Magic rules themselves are kind of an afterthought thrown in that could have been better realized but that wasn't the focus of the system, so take that as you will. Personally, you could probably push in normal magic items into the system without much futzing with the mechanics, though spells would seriously throw off the balance even more than adding items will. I say leave the system as is and see how you fare, as the system works rather like how VoP should have in creating powerful characters without magic items to fall back on and fill their weaknesses.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Swordgleam
2010-01-26, 10:41 PM
I say leave the system as is and see how you fare, as the system works rather like how VoP should have in creating powerful characters without magic items to fall back on and fill their weaknesses.


THIS! Iron Heroes uses a "it's you, not your gear" philosophy. Adding in magic items (aside from the occasional wondrous item) will, in my opinion, very likely make the game a lot less fun. I have nothing against magic items, but that just isn't what Iron Heroes is about.

Play a little before you decide to mess with the system. You can run entire campaigns without even reading the magic system.

I'd suggest buying the book, but I don't know what the online rules you found have in them.

Mike_G
2010-01-26, 10:41 PM
We played it for a bit, and I loved it.

It is a different flavor, and I prefer the low magic IH one, but if you like your PC to glow like a Christmas tree when someone detecs magic, you will hate it.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-26, 11:20 PM
Thanks guys, I will definitely get and play it, I just think some of the other players will take one look and say "wtf ****ty casting = NO!" I will try and make them see the light though. Perhaps read the whole
"You are not your magic weapon and armor. You are not your spell buffs. You are not how much gold you have, or how many times you've been raised from the dead. When a Big Bad Demon snaps your sword in two, you do not cry because that was your holy avenger. You leap onto its back, climb up to its head, and punch it in the eye, then get a new damn sword off of the next humanoid you headbutt to death." to get them interested:smallbiggrin:.

Thrawn183
2010-01-26, 11:24 PM
I love IH because it really encourages cinematic type stuff.

I realized after a while of playing standard 3.5 that I never tried swinging from a chandelier or anything like that, because the system just wasn't designed to encourage it. IH has specific bonuses built in for fun things like the use of the environment.

Edit: The monsters are also amazing. So flavorful and mechanically awesome.

Satyr
2010-01-27, 02:16 AM
I like the idea of Iron Heroes, and a few of the concepts are really, really cool, but unfortunately it is not very fluid to run or play. The different token creation mechanisms make the game very "book-keepy" and can slow it down easily, especially when the players aren't used to this stuff.

So, it's not bad, but it's no revelation, either. It has the right tendency how to deal with casters though: Nerf them into oblivion and make sure that they aren't get in the way for the cool and interesting heroes.

Umael
2010-01-27, 01:01 PM
Sorry, should have clarified, I read the beta version online and was wondering if you guys thought it was worth it to buy the books and supplements. I HAVE heard that it has atrocious rules for magic. How true is this, and how hard would it be to sub in the D&D magic system or modify it?

Don't think of it as having atrocious rules for magic.

The reality about magic is that magic is what humans first called things that worked but they couldn't understand how. Magic was the explanation for the unknown, and it was often feared. That quickly transferred into an almost spiritual connection, the idea that there is more to this existence than what can be just experienced through the senses. From that, magic grew to encapsule imagination and awe - both the awesome and the awful*.

Iron Heroes is about living in a world where magic is more of the terrifying, unpredictable, and frequently disasterous than the wonderous and empowering. There is more of a horror feel to the game, more of a grittiness and dark fantasy to it.

Magic is no longer commonplace, and those who use magic are to be feared. PCs who dare to use magical items, or even, more terrifying, magic itself, are either very brave or very foolish.

D&D magic... doesn't belong. The playing field between the casters and the non-casters has been leveled, at least as far as I can tell. An Arcanist does just fine at 1st level, and a Berserker is just as fearsome at 20th.

subject42
2010-01-27, 01:39 PM
The different token creation mechanisms make the game very "book-keepy" and can slow it down easily, especially when the players aren't used to this stuff.

The last time I ran an Iron Heroes game we got really bogged down by the "Armor as DR, and roll for how much DR" mechanic. It felt more than a bit clumsy as the number of attacks per round increased.

We ended up house-ruling that you got the average amount of DR that you would receive from rolling, which streamlined things enough to enjoy it.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-27, 01:53 PM
Sounds like a good idea, what did you do for values like 1d2?

Umael
2010-01-27, 02:11 PM
Sounds like a good idea, what did you do for values like 1d2?

I suggest alternating evenly between 1 and 2 for 1d2. If it matters, start with 1.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-27, 07:42 PM
Hmm, that would sort of defeat the purpose of the system to begin with... maybe this?

Leather: DR 1
Studded Leather: DR 2

Scale Mail: DR 3 w/ heavy penalties
Chainmail DR 3 w/ less penalties

Half Plate: DR 4
Full Plate: DR 5

Umael
2010-01-27, 07:50 PM
Wait, why would it defeat the system?

Padded gives DR 1.
Leather gives DR 1d2. This means it has a 50% chance of rolling a 1 and a 50% chance of rolling a 2.

If you are attacked by someone with a short sword, doing 1d6 damage (assume Strength 10, no modifiers), and the person hits twice, you take an average of 7 points of damage for the two, 3 of which gets absorbed by the armor.

That is how the system works as it stands, and that's how the system would work with the modifier.

awa
2010-01-27, 08:38 PM
In general its a good system the art is not as good as the 3.5 stuff but thats a minor quible

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-27, 08:44 PM
Wait, why would it defeat the system?

Padded gives DR 1.
Leather gives DR 1d2. This means it has a 50% chance of rolling a 1 and a 50% chance of rolling a 2.

If you are attacked by someone with a short sword, doing 1d6 damage (assume Strength 10, no modifiers), and the person hits twice, you take an average of 7 points of damage for the two, 3 of which gets absorbed by the armor.

That is how the system works as it stands, and that's how the system would work with the modifier.

We were talking about averaging the armor values to reduce rolling, and rolling for only 1d2 would be kind of weird. I do understand the mechanics of dice.

Zaq
2010-01-27, 10:12 PM
Iron Heroes is a blast. I'd love to do it again.

A word of advice: BANHAMMER the Arcanist and the Spiritualist. I played a Spiritualist because I didn't know any better (it was my first d20 game), and I kind of accidentally wrecked (well, not wrecked, but heavily altered) the campaign for everyone else. And this was as a d20 newbie who didn't know how to use magic in actually scary ways. The game does not need magic and should not have it. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have even tried the magic classes, but I had no idea what I was doing, so I claim ignorance as my excuse.

Seriously though, get rid of the magic classes except maybe for BBEGs. It's a fun system other than that. I'd really like to try it again, but I've lost contact with all but two members of my group, one of whom absolutely hates my guts now (for unrelated reasons). Sad. Maybe there's a good play-by-post out there...

Jayabalard
2010-01-27, 10:25 PM
C) Other suggestions for games
(note: I already have and love GURPS, but I am looking for something D&D-like for other players who like it)Do you mean you want something mechanically similar to D&D? ie roll d20 for attack, class based, level based system?

Or are you just looking for a fantasy RPG.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-27, 10:31 PM
Iron Heroes is a blast. I'd love to do it again.

A word of advice: BANHAMMER the Arcanist and the Spiritualist. I played a Spiritualist because I didn't know any better (it was my first d20 game), and I kind of accidentally wrecked (well, not wrecked, but heavily altered) the campaign for everyone else. And this was as a d20 newbie who didn't know how to use magic in actually scary ways. The game does not need magic and should not have it. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have even tried the magic classes, but I had no idea what I was doing, so I claim ignorance as my excuse.


Could you explain how a spiritualist wrecked a campaign?

Zaq
2010-01-27, 10:44 PM
Could you explain how a spiritualist wrecked a campaign?

Eh, "wrecked" is the wrong word. I just really wasn't playing the same game as everyone else. This was especially obvious in mass battles, when I was able to neutralize or defend against way more foes at once than anyone else could...

The biggest issue, I think, was that I made mundane problems less of an issue. Part of the beauty of Iron Heroes is that your classic cinematic obstacles, like a giant wall, a chasm, a pile of boulders in front of a door, or whatever, are actually interesting and meaningful again, unlike in 3.5 D&D... unless you have someone who has magic. Remember, it takes magic to combat magic, and you just plain don't get magic doors, or magic traps, or whatever in Iron Heroes, unless you're intentionally going up against something otherworldy and problematic. You can really ruin a dungeon by circumventing a lot of the things that Iron Heroes goes out of its way to make interesting again. Since I was such a newbie, I didn't realize what an issue this was until it the campaign had long since been over and I knew more about how d20 does and does not work. I felt pretty bad afterwards.

Swordgleam
2010-01-27, 11:23 PM
The last time I ran an Iron Heroes game we got really bogged down by the "Armor as DR, and roll for how much DR" mechanic. It felt more than a bit clumsy as the number of attacks per round increased.

We ended up house-ruling that you got the average amount of DR that you would receive from rolling, which streamlined things enough to enjoy it.

Just to chip in with my own experience, when I played, we loved rolling for DR. You don't get to roll to avoid an attack with static defenses, so rolling for DR is the only thing you can do to feel like you're really contributing to your own defense in combat. Besides, the feeling of badassery when your berserker 1d4 comes up with a 4, a 3, and a 3 against arrows dealing 4, 2 and 3 damage respectively is beyond description.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-27, 11:27 PM
Do you mean you want something mechanically similar to D&D? ie roll d20 for attack, class based, level based system?

Or are you just looking for a fantasy RPG.

I am looking for a rule-of-cool based fantasy RPG. Preferably something similar to 3.5 for easy transitions. Rules lite-ish (not risus lite).

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-27, 11:31 PM
Just to chip in with my own experience, when I played, we loved rolling for DR. You don't get to roll to avoid an attack with static defenses, so rolling for DR is the only thing you can do to feel like you're really contributing to your own defense in combat. Besides, the feeling of badassery when your berserker 1d4 comes up with a 4, a 3, and a 3 against arrows dealing 4, 2 and 3 damage respectively is beyond description.

Cool, I'll probably just use straight up rules for the first adventure, and we'll make a joint decision on armor/magic. I still can't imagine the arcanist breaking games when you've played in games with a wizard though. You don't have very many options as a caster. The only broken thing I can see is that transmuters can still polymorph stuff, you've got a pretty limited spell selection. I haven't seen the spiritualist though, so it might be more powerful, idk...

sonofzeal
2010-01-27, 11:43 PM
Fluff is amazing. Seriously, Iron Kingdoms is one of the best-fluffed campaign settings I've seen.

Crunch is.... eh. Balance is seriously shoddy, rules are awkwardly laid out, and Mechanika is confusing as heck. I have spent literally hours working with a DM to try and resolve something that should have been a couple basic skillchecks, and there were still parts we weren't sure about; imo it's worse than Incarnum for picking up, and that's saying something.

Raum
2010-01-27, 11:55 PM
I am looking for a rule-of-cool based fantasy RPG. Preferably something similar to 3.5 for easy transitions. Rules lite-ish (not risus lite).The phrase "rule of cool" seems to be used as a justification for ignoring rules more often than not...so I'm not certain what you're trying to describe. With that caveat, I'll suggest Unisystem as conceptually similar to d20. It does use a d10 instead of a d20 but it's similar in how it plays. Going a bit farther from d20, you might look at Savage Worlds...however there are some significant conceptual differences. FATE is almost certainly too far from d20 for what you're asking, but its aspects 'might' meet your 'rule of cool' requirement...of course you could import aspects into any game.

Attilargh
2010-01-28, 12:01 AM
Seriously, Iron Kingdoms is one of the best-fluffed campaign settings I've seen.
Bolding mine. While I must agree on everything you say, this thread's about Iron Heroes, which is a whole another game of swords and sorcery. :smallwink:

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-28, 12:16 AM
The phrase "rule of cool" seems to be used as a justification for ignoring rules more often than not...so I'm not certain what you're trying to describe. With that caveat, I'll suggest Unisystem as conceptually similar to d20. It does use a d10 instead of a d20 but it's similar in how it plays. Going a bit farther from d20, you might look at Savage Worlds...however there are some significant conceptual differences. FATE is almost certainly too far from d20 for what you're asking, but its aspects 'might' meet your 'rule of cool' requirement...of course you could import aspects into any game.

My definition of rule of cool is basically a system that doesn't care so much about logic, but instead strives to have the coolest and most interesting characters and options for those characters in play. I want to be able to use my short swords like ice axes while I climb on top of a dragon, pin an enemy to a wall using arrows, and deflect arrows with my sword. I don't actually care about d20 that much, I just want something that screams 'EPIC' without being a demigod (although exalted does look cool).

sonofzeal
2010-01-28, 12:19 AM
Bolding mine. While I must agree on everything you say, this thread's about Iron Heroes, which is a whole another game of swords and sorcery. :smallwink:
.....whooopsie!

Well, you can't win 'em all, can you? :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Knaight
2010-01-28, 12:24 AM
My definition of rule of cool is basically a system that doesn't care so much about logic, but instead strives to have the coolest and most interesting characters and options for those characters in play. I want to be able to use my short swords like ice axes while I climb on top of a dragon, pin an enemy to a wall using arrows, and deflect arrows with my sword. I don't actually care about d20 that much, I just want something that screams 'EPIC' without being a demigod (although exalted does look cool).

Wushu. So much Wushu. It is a bit light, but this fits so perfectly. Alternately, Feng Shui works as well, though that requires a bit more fighting with the system. And generics can work, if handled well. You could pull this off in GURPS, Fudge, or Savage Worlds, although all three work just as well with realism. Also, Wushu.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-28, 01:21 AM
Wushu. So much Wushu. It is a bit light, but this fits so perfectly. Alternately, Feng Shui works as well, though that requires a bit more fighting with the system. And generics can work, if handled well. You could pull this off in GURPS, Fudge, or Savage Worlds, although all three work just as well with realism. Also, Wushu.

Just read Wushu and wow, a 'bit' light on rules eh? Just like you can be 'bit' pregnant?:smalltongue: It does look fun, though I was hoping something with a little more structure. I'll probably try it out when none of us have a campaign prepared. Interesting ideas...

Knaight
2010-01-28, 01:23 AM
It is really light, but it fits the feel beautifully. The other examples are all heavier.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-28, 01:33 AM
How does Savage Worlds play? I have heard it's like gurps, but don't know much about it.

Satyr
2010-01-28, 04:40 AM
How does Savage Worlds play? I have heard it's like gurps, but don't know much about it.

It's a trite and banal game prone to hyperbole and very aggressive marketing. Basically it's a mediocre game consisting of mechanisms foraged from other, usual better games with a slight case of delusions of grandeur. It's really not like Gurps, but I am sure the authors try hard to make others - or themselves believe that. Not really bad, but highly overestimated.


My definition of rule of cool is basically a system that doesn't care so much about logic, but instead strives to have the coolest and most interesting characters and options for those characters in play. I want to be able to use my short swords like ice axes while I climb on top of a dragon, pin an enemy to a wall using arrows, and deflect arrows with my sword.

Idea 1: Gurps: Dungeon Fantasy with bang skills and generous uses of advantages like luck and especially Daredevil, and ablative DR as a hit point protection. Simple, fast, easy to play.

Idea 2: Cinematic Unisystem (or any Unisystem, if you like nit-picky skills) and the generous use of Action Points. As above, but more similar to D20 in its core mechanisms.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-28, 08:50 AM
It's a trite and banal game prone to hyperbole and very aggressive marketing. Basically it's a mediocre game consisting of mechanisms foraged from other, usual better games with a slight case of delusions of grandeur. It's really not like Gurps, but I am sure the authors try hard to make others - or themselves believe that. Not really bad, but highly overestimated.



Idea 1: Gurps: Dungeon Fantasy with bang skills and generous uses of advantages like luck and especially Daredevil, and ablative DR as a hit point protection. Simple, fast, easy to play.

Idea 2: Cinematic Unisystem (or any Unisystem, if you like nit-picky skills) and the generous use of Action Points. As above, but more similar to D20 in its core mechanisms.

Cool, I love GURPS, but I don't want to GM it, and no else in my group knows the rules well enough yet...

But wow, ok, no savage worlds for me:smalleek:

And now unisystem, Arg! I am learning to many systems in such a short time, my brain is overloading!:smalltongue:

Umael
2010-01-28, 11:31 AM
We were talking about averaging the armor values to reduce rolling, and rolling for only 1d2 would be kind of weird. I do understand the mechanics of dice.

Sorry, wasn't insinuating anything about your comprehension, just genuinely confused.

Look, if alternating between 1 and 2 (or 2 and 3, or 3 and 4, etc.) seems likely to slow down the game as much as rolling the 1d2, 1d4, 1d6, etc., then at least you can use the middle for 1d3, 1d5, etc. That should streamline things a little.

(Of course, you mentioned that you would give it a try before deciding anything, so that's good.)


Zaq: Don't feel bad. Sometimes, the campaign doesn't work with the character concept and vice versa. On that vein, just because your Arcanist "crashed" the game doesn't mean that the Arcanist is a bad class. After all, there IS magic in Iron Heroes, and so your GM might have been able to provide suitable obstacles without altering the balance. Who knows?

Satyr
2010-01-28, 11:31 AM
Cool, I love GURPS, but I don't want to GM it, and no else in my group knows the rules well enough yet...

That's why I would suggest DF and/ or the bang skills. Dungeon Fantasy includes many, many templates (think: Character classes) which you can then adjust freely, and the bang skills reduce the skill list to the relevant stuff -you know, Fight!, Brawl!, Scout! and so on. This turns the game into a very rule-simple game. You sacrifice some of the coolness of the system but it works well to get a grip on the rules.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-28, 12:21 PM
Hmm, I have dungeon fantasy, but I never thought of using every skill like a wildcard one... it would reduce a lot of bookkeeping/memorization of the skills. That plus a bunch of the simple stuff from GURPS lite would make it very easy game to learn. Now all I have to do is convince the GM to switch his campaign to a different system! yay... thanks for the advice though!

EDIT: should you price the bang skills like normal or wildcard ones?

Indon
2010-01-28, 12:32 PM
My definition of rule of cool is basically a system that doesn't care so much about logic, but instead strives to have the coolest and most interesting characters and options for those characters in play. I want to be able to use my short swords like ice axes while I climb on top of a dragon, pin an enemy to a wall using arrows, and deflect arrows with my sword. I don't actually care about d20 that much, I just want something that screams 'EPIC' without being a demigod (although exalted does look cool).

There are rules to play a mortal in Exalted.

You don't get nearly as OVER 9000, but you can still stunt (as heroic mortals anyway), and you can still tap the lower tiers of magic power in the game, with difficulty.

The downside would be that heroic mortals are at just about the bottom of the power scale in Exalted, so there's a bunch of stuff out there that can stomp you just about instantly. In fact, it'd probably feel a bit Lovecraftian.

Thrawn183
2010-01-28, 01:10 PM
Iron Heroes is awesome.

Using the rules as written... it'd be impossible to break the game with an Arcanist. I mean, it literally becomes more difficult to cast spells the smarter you become.

Just don't use the magic, as the system wasn't designed for it, and have fun. Fun is one of the things IH is built around.

subject42
2010-01-28, 01:10 PM
Besides, the feeling of badassery when your berserker 1d4 comes up with a 4, a 3, and a 3 against arrows dealing 4, 2 and 3 damage respectively is beyond description.

That is a nice feeling.

How big was your party? We had a group of six because everyone was excited to try the new system. Maybe it's just one of those things that don't scale well.

Thrawn183
2010-01-28, 01:11 PM
That is a nice feeling.

How big was your party? We had a group of six because everyone was excited to try the new system. Maybe it's just one of those things that don't scale well.

It doesn't scale as well as it probably should, mostly because IH characters are damage monkeys. Then again, they need it as they don't have any real ability to overcome damage reduction.

Umael
2010-01-28, 01:50 PM
Using the rules as written... it'd be impossible to break the game with an Arcanist. I mean, it literally becomes more difficult to cast spells the smarter you become.

Just don't use the magic, as the system wasn't designed for it, and have fun. Fun is one of the things IH is built around.

Actually, the smarter Arcanist being at a disadvantage? That was an error. There is an errata out there that fixes a lot of the problems in the original book.

But your second comment is pretty spot on. The Arcanist was an addition to the game that was added hastily. Given that the Arcanist is only one out of the ten given classes in the basic book, you definitely can do without it.

Thrawn183
2010-01-28, 03:53 PM
Yeah, I'm actually playing a heavily houseruled arcanist in a PbP on this very forum. Lots of fun, but definitely not overpowered.

Anyways, I've found the bonus system really encourages people to describe what they're doing in combat and try to do cool stuff instead of just "I step 5 feet forwards and full round attack"

Then there are the different ways to attack like body slamming people and stuff. Very, very cool.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-28, 04:14 PM
Yeah, I'm actually playing a heavily houseruled arcanist in a PbP on this very forum. Lots of fun, but definitely not overpowered.

Anyways, I've found the bonus system really encourages people to describe what they're doing in combat and try to do cool stuff instead of just "I step 5 feet forwards and full round attack"

Then there are the different ways to attack like body slamming people and stuff. Very, very cool.

Bonus system? I must have missed it - where is it? But the stunts and challenges look like a very cool way to use skills offensively rather than just like saves.

Swordgleam
2010-01-28, 06:14 PM
That is a nice feeling.

How big was your party? We had a group of six because everyone was excited to try the new system. Maybe it's just one of those things that don't scale well.

At the most, we had a group of five: my man-at-arms, an archer, a harrier, a berserker, and a hunter who is slow at basic math and reading comprehension and was also running an NPC, and therefore counts as at least 2.5 people's worth of time. (I like him as a friend and as a player, but he doubles how long a round of combat takes in any system he plays.) If that guy could handle DR and a hunter's token pool, I think anyone can. :smalltongue:

Thrawn183
2010-01-28, 06:32 PM
Bonus system? I must have missed it - where is it? But the stunts and challenges look like a very cool way to use skills offensively rather than just like saves.

That's pretty much what I meant. It's quick and simple. It also really encourages things like trying to vault over a mount to get a bonus. One of my biggest complaints with vanilla 3.5 is that any time I try and do anything cool the DM calls for a skill check. If I succeed I get nothing mechanically, and if I fail then who knows how bad the result might be.

IH is very clear in stating that if you're trying something like that you shouldn't be punished, only rewarded.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-28, 06:40 PM
IH is very clear in stating that if you're trying something like that you shouldn't be punished, only rewarded.

Unless you are a mage. :smalltongue:

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-28, 06:44 PM
Unless you are a mage. :smalltongue:

Indeed, that is my biggest worry with the system. I recently stumbled upon These (http://soulmagesihfixes.pbworks.com/) fixes and I think the magic system looks like it's pretty good. Seems like he likes the armiger a bit too much though, idk.

Umael
2010-01-28, 07:01 PM
Unless you are a mage. :smalltongue:

As I recall, magic isn't the only thing going for the Arcanist. They have some ability in combat outside of the things that go "boom!". I'm thinking the pacts, but I'm sure there are other things out there.

Raum
2010-01-28, 07:29 PM
How does Savage Worlds play? I have heard it's like gurps, but don't know much about it.
It's a trite and banal game prone to hyperbole and very aggressive marketing. Basically it's a mediocre game consisting of mechanisms foraged from other, usual better games with a slight case of delusions of grandeur. It's really not like Gurps, but I am sure the authors try hard to make others - or themselves believe that. Not really bad, but highly overestimated.
But wow, ok, no savage worlds for me:smalleek:I'd suggest looking around for a few other opinions before deciding against SW. For whatever reason, it's obviously not a game Satyr likes...but that's simply one opinion.

I like the system. It's low maintenance and minimizes accounting...which makes running it easy. As for marketing...well the only official marketing I'm aware of are booths at cons. Not exactly aggressive or over-marketed. But that discussion probably belongs in another thread.


And now unisystem, Arg! I am learning to many systems in such a short time, my brain is overloading!:smalltongue:Unisystem is a decent system. It's also conceptually similar to d20 which makes switching reasonably easy. I'd suggest finding the WC Demo Kit to read the basic rules...Witchcraft is also free but is horribly organized as a game reference.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-29, 03:38 PM
So nobody has any opinion on the general fairness of the homebrew magic system Here (http://soulmagesihfixes.pbworks.com/)?

TheArchmage
2010-01-30, 01:56 AM
Iron Heroes is effing awesome. It plays like some sort of "suspend your disbelief" over-the-top action film. All the classes have some awesome tricks they can pull off. The one that really takes the cake for me is the Archer's "Arrow Ladder Shot."
I'll repeat that.
ARROW. LADDER. SHOT.
Oh, the possibilities.

Daosus
2010-01-30, 04:23 AM
First off, Iron Heroes is pretty awesome. The magic system in the book is broken, so I don't suggest using it without fixes, a number of which are available. The Spiritualist in Iron Heroes Player's Companion is more balanced, but does tend to steal some thunder. Still, that cumulative -1 per casting within an hour goes a long way in preventing abuse. There is also a decent conversion of Incarnum done by a fellow called Confused Jackal Mage here. (http://ironcarnum.pbworks.com/)



Second off, Savage Worlds is fun for some, not fun for others. I like it. What sold me were the free Test Drive Rules, available here. (http://www.peginc.com/Downloads/SWEX/TD06.pdf) The game plays better than it reads, so grab one of the premade characters from Pinnacle's web site, grab a friend and run a short combat or two. Then, decide if you like it or not. Like I said, it's not for everyone, but it's a very versatile, fast, cinematic system with very low GM preparation.

Hurlbut
2010-01-30, 12:13 PM
Mastering Iron Heroes have rules for how to use magic items in the setting. Take the potions for example, which doesn't have to use spells, just require incredible rare plant/animal parts or highly complex formula, if you used a bull's strength potion you would become stronger but stupider like +4 Strength, -4 Int or owl's wisdom you become wiser but more withdrawn having a bonus to wis and a penalty cha I think?. Look at the traits that give bonus and penalty to stats as baseline for above, and they can have other drawbacks like mutation and drug addiction.

The book handled other magic items as well along with other stuff like wealth feats (so you can invest in something with all those wealth! doesn't require a feat slot like others but require a certain amount of treasure) and such.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-30, 08:19 PM
Iron Heroes is effing awesome. It plays like some sort of "suspend your disbelief" over-the-top action film. All the classes have some awesome tricks they can pull off. The one that really takes the cake for me is the Archer's "Arrow Ladder Shot."
I'll repeat that.
ARROW. LADDER. SHOT.
Oh, the possibilities.

I know, the archer is probably my favorite class in the book! :smallbiggrin:

Also:


The book handled other magic items as well along with other stuff like wealth feats (so you can invest in something with all those wealth! doesn't require a feat slot like others but require a certain amount of treasure) and such.
I don't understand why they just didn't list GP costs instead of using 'Wealth points, seems kind of weird.

Hurlbut
2010-01-31, 01:39 PM
I know, the archer is probably my favorite class in the book! :smallbiggrin:

Also:

I don't understand why they just didn't list GP costs instead of using 'Wealth points, seems kind of weird.They did stated the cost conversion for Wealth Point, off top of my head I think it's 100 gp per 1 point when investing. When withdrawing, it's 50 gp per 1 point, so it's an incentive to stay invested.