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Soranar
2010-01-26, 10:31 PM
Race: human
alignment: any

template: winged

STATS (32 pts buy)

STR 8
DEX 20
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 16
CHA 8

1 Swashbuckler exotic weapon proficiency :spiked chain, combat reflexes bonus feat weapon finesse
2 Swordsage bonus feat: weapon focus: spiked chain
3 Swordsage shadow bladeWisdom to AC
4 Rogue
5 Rogue bonus feat:evasion
6 Rogue Daring Outlaw alternative feature, half sneak damage vs undead instead of trapfinding
7 Swashbuckler
8 Swashbuckler insightful strike
9 Swashbuckler improved combat reflexes


After level 9 I figured I'd just keep taking swashbuckler levels.

Swashbuckler has High Fort saves and also gets Grace (bonus to Reflex saves) and a special dodge bonus against a single opponent. I also intend to take the feat sneak attack of opportunity.

questions:

The shadow blade feat is described (in the feat table) as replacing STR while using a shadow hand weapon.

Since the spiked chain is two-handed do I get my Dex bonus 1.5x?

Is Opportunistic Tactician (5 foot movement if you do an AoO) worth the trouble? (requires dodge+mobility)

Boci
2010-01-26, 10:36 PM
9 Swashbuckler improved combat reflexes

Were is that feat from?


2 questions though

1rst the shadow blade feat is described (in the feat table) as replacing STR while using a shadow hand weapon

since the spiked chain is two-handed do I get my Dex bonus 1.5x?

Text trumps table. You gain dex in addition to str. 1.5 your str mod for a two handed weapon, but still only 1.0 you dex.


2nd question

is Opportunistic Tactician (5 foot movement if you do an AoO) worth the trouble? (requires dodge+mobility)

Probably not.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-26, 10:38 PM
I see no Karmic Strike or Robiliar's Gambit in this build.

Soranar
2010-01-26, 10:39 PM
improved combat reflexes is a feat in crystalkeep

basically you can do a second AoO at -5 whenever 1 is triggered (counts toward your maximum allowed)

and the DEX thing bugs me (yet another poorly worded book) as the long description says you add your DEX damage (not mentioning strength) while the table (in the same book!) claims you replace it

Boci
2010-01-26, 10:40 PM
I see no Karmic Strike or Robiliar's Gambit in this build.

The first one is over rated due to its awful preqs and the second one can be taken at level 12 earliest, latter if you don't use full BAB classes.

Soranar
2010-01-26, 10:41 PM
karmic strike requires dodge, might take it if I go for the tactical thing that needs dodge+ mobility

robillar's gambit requires BAB +12 so yeah I could take it at level 15

but for level 9 I prefer improved combat reflexes

sofawall
2010-01-26, 10:50 PM
Were is that feat from?

Dragon 340, I believe.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-26, 10:53 PM
Robilar's Gambit FTW!!!!

ghashxx
2010-01-27, 01:06 AM
I've got one stance that you should practically cut off your hand to get "thicket of blades". Of course it's a devoted spirit stance, but with a little manipulation of feats / multiclassing into Crusader and it's easily fixed. Plus this gives you more DR bypassing stuff from mountain hammer.

Thicket of Blades is absolutely evil, allowing you to make an AoO against anyone you threaten making any movement, 5' steps and withdraw actions included. You do this before they move, which means possibly tripping em. Combine that with the feat "Deft Opportunist" giving you +4 on all AoO's and "Mage Slayer", then you're set to absolutely destroy spell casters. "Oh what's that? Did I disarm your spell components pouch? Oh I'm so sorry." Hilarious.

The best thing? With improved combat reflexes and deft opportunists you're making two attacks on each opportunity with the first one being at greater than your best attack bonus, and the other one at only 1 attack bonus worse than your best. I made a build a ways back and haven't gotten to play him yet, sad face.

Eloel
2010-01-27, 01:21 AM
Missing Mage Slayer & Thicket of Blades. That combo gives you an AoO against a caster when you're close by, almost no matter what they do.

Boci
2010-01-27, 01:29 AM
Missing Mage Slayer & Thicket of Blades. That combo gives you an AoO against a caster when you're close by, almost no matter what they do.

Anklet of translocation is about it, as far as I can think of. Maybe quickened summon monster I to gain cover, unless you also throw in a level of exotic weapon master.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-27, 01:34 AM
Anklet of translocation is about it, as far as I can think of. Maybe quickened summon monster I to gain cover, unless you also throw in a level of exotic weapon master.Abrupt Jaunt also works, as does Quickened Benign Transposition(or almost any other spell). Something like Ironguard or Greater Mirror Image makes the AoO nigh-useless, too.

Kallisti
2010-01-27, 01:41 AM
Dual-wield. DO IT. Then take Double Hit and High Sword, Low Axe.

The combat goes like this.

Enemy provokes AoO

Hit with the on-hand a number of times dependant on whether you have Improved/Greater Combat Reflexes, and once with the off-hand.

Trip attempt from High Sword Low Axe.

Tripped enemy stands up, provoking an AoO.

Repeat.

You can make it obscenely hard for people to regain their feet, and get plenty of attacks on them between TWF and AoOs, especially with Double Hit.

If you urgently need reach, then you can play a Large race, get Unnatural Reach, or just get some way to be Large most or all of the time.

ryzouken
2010-01-27, 01:49 AM
When I was building something along these lines, it was a Human fighter (maybe take levels in Warblade, but I'm pretty feat starved) grabbing Jotunbrud and Knockback (only works if your DM allows FR regional feats) along with the dungeoncrasher line since it dovetails so nicely. Combo that with Hold the Line, Karmic Strike, and Robilar's (when available).

Essentially, once you get enough feats up and running, if they attack you within your reach you get 2-3 AoO's (3 if charged) and can Knockback with them, putting them on their arse a long ways away. If you've a wall nearby, you can make em prone and deal lots of damage.

All kinds of fun stuff. None of it dependant on using a particular weapon either, so use a polearm and interrupt inbound charges (with KB to disrupt their charge movement).

Heliomance
2010-01-27, 03:25 AM
Dual-wield. DO IT. Then take Double Hit and High Sword, Low Axe.

The combat goes like this.

Enemy provokes AoO

Hit with the on-hand a number of times dependant on whether you have Improved/Greater Combat Reflexes, and once with the off-hand.

Trip attempt from High Sword Low Axe.

Tripped enemy stands up, provoking an AoO.

Repeat.

You can make it obscenely hard for people to regain their feet, and get plenty of attacks on them between TWF and AoOs, especially with Double Hit.

If you urgently need reach, then you can play a Large race, get Unnatural Reach, or just get some way to be Large most or all of the time.

You can't trip on the AoO from someone standing up - the AoO resolves before the action, meaining they're still prone when you take it. Pronelocking someone is just broken.

Boci
2010-01-27, 03:58 AM
You can't trip on the AoO from someone standing up - the AoO resolves before the action, meaining they're still prone when you take it. Pronelocking someone is just broken.

To be fair, the whole "repeat" thing may have included waiting for the opponent to first provoke a new AoO.

Eloel
2010-01-27, 04:12 AM
To be fair, the whole "repeat" thing may have included waiting for the opponent to first provoke a new AoO.

It involved Knockback, and using Bullrush on AoO. You bullrush them when they're standing up, they fall down 'over there'. For your turn, you move close again.

ghashxx
2010-01-27, 09:44 AM
Oh yeah, something I forgot. When using a spiked chain it's absolutely vital to nab some strongarm bracers to increase the size category of your weapon. So while the range doesn't get any better it's now a 2d6 weapon instead of 2d4.

Person_Man
2010-01-27, 10:31 AM
Things you may wish to consider:

Greater Combat Reflexes is from Dragon Magazine 340, not crystalkeep. Crystalkeep is just an index which for some reason WotC hasn't sued into oblivion. Many DMs do not allow Dragon Mag material, though if yours does, good for you. If he doesn't, then the feat you are looking for is Double Hit from the Miniatures handbook, which gives you two attacks for each AoO you get, and at a higher To-Hit.
Insightful Strike is a Swashbuckler class ability, not a feat. It grants your Intelligence bonus to damage. You're not using Power Attack (so there's no need for full-ish BAB), you dip into Swordsage (making Daring Outlaw less efficient), and your Int is only 16 (making Insightful Strike nearly meaningless). So I would say that in this instance, you should drop your Swashbuckler levels and take more Rogue or Swordsage.
Opportunistic Tactician is also Dragon Mag material. It is generally not worth spending two worthless feats on. A similar equivalent feat from non-Dragon material is Sidestep from the Miniatures Handbook, which gives you an extra 5 ft step once per round when you make an AoO. You can get access to Sidestep as a bonus feat via two levels of the Tactical Soldier PrC (which also grants an Adaptable Flanker like ability) which is also from the Miniatures Handbook. Alternatively, you can take Double Hit and Evasive Reflexes from the Tome of Battle, which lets you trade AoO for a 5 ft step (without counting towards your AoO total). This reduces will reduce the number of AoO that you receive, but it has no pre-reqs. Or you can take the Martial Stance feat (or levels of Crusader or Warblade) to get access to the Press the Advantage (White Raven) stance. Or you can buy a Psicrown of the Evader to get access to Hustle.
Could you specify what your build goal is? If your goal is simply to deal a lot of damage, you seem to be going about it in a very convoluted way.

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-27, 10:54 AM
Abrupt Jaunt also works, as does Quickened Benign Transposition(or almost any other spell). Something like Ironguard or Greater Mirror Image makes the AoO nigh-useless, too.

For Ironguard, I found useful jaded weapons (OAdv). They are made by stone (IIRC, in D&D stone and metal are different for spell purposes) and thay have the gosht touch ability: Baffle Ironguard and Goshtform with a not yet enchanted weapon is priceless.

moreover, IIRC, the tier of Mage Slayer has a feat (having blind-fight as a prereq as well) able to ignore miss chances due to buffs like blur, mirror image and the like. is called Pierce Magical Concealment. Of course, this could cost too many feats, and does not deal with Abrupt Jaunt, unless you are an Orthon Devil..

Xenogears
2010-01-27, 10:56 AM
For Ironguard, I found useful jaded weapons (OAdv). They are made by stone (IIRC, in D&D stone and metal are different for spell purposes) and thay have the gosht touch ability: Baffle Ironguard and Goshtform with a not yet enchanted weapon is priceless.

moreover, IIRC, the tier of Mage Slayer has a feat (having blind-fight as a prereq as well) able to ignore miss chances due to buffs like blur, mirror image and the like. is called Pierce Magical Concealment. Of course, this could cost too many feats, and does not deal with Abrupt Jaunt, unless you are an Orthon Devil..

6.5-8k for an unenchanted weapon is expensive though...

Still like the material but...

Killer Angel
2010-01-27, 11:03 AM
Oh yeah, something I forgot. When using a spiked chain it's absolutely vital to nab some strongarm bracers to increase the size category of your weapon. So while the range doesn't get any better it's now a 2d6 weapon instead of 2d4.

IMO is better an armband of might: gives +2 to all strenght based checks (so, also tripping contest), and a bonus to damage when PA.

Person_Man
2010-01-27, 11:26 AM
For Ironguard, I found useful jaded weapons (OAdv). They are made by stone (IIRC, in D&D stone and metal are different for spell purposes) and thay have the gosht touch ability: Baffle Ironguard and Goshtform with a not yet enchanted weapon is priceless.

moreover, IIRC, the tier of Mage Slayer has a feat (having blind-fight as a prereq as well) able to ignore miss chances due to buffs like blur, mirror image and the like. is called Pierce Magical Concealment. Of course, this could cost too many feats, and does not deal with Abrupt Jaunt, unless you are an Orthon Devil..

You might also want to consider the Rapier of Unerring Direction from Complete Divine, which grants Ghost Touch and the ability to ignore the miss chance from any source (essentially replacing Pierce Magical Concealment, but better). It requires the True Believer feat, and you have to use a rapier as your primary weapon. But if you're a Swashbuckler-ish build, then it may be a superior choice.

Soranar
2010-01-27, 11:32 AM
Alright I'll try to answer everyone in time. I use a spiked chain because of the reach and because it's a shadow hand weapon which makes shadow blade work. So as far as weapons are concerned please stop proposing weapons that do not work with this feat. Axes and rapiers will not work with it and I want the build to do reliable damage throughout it's progression.

The build is Dex based to help get more AoO, spending more stats on Str would make it MAD. The high Int is useful only to get certain skills to help get around the battlefield and just happens to work with insightful strike. Considering what it gives me I might drop the winged template entirely as LA+2 seems a bit high for what I get out of it.

Devoted spirit stances do not with any shadow hand stances so , again, please try to work within the confines of the build.

I've just discovered the Mage Slayer feats and honestly I'm impressed, I'm even thinking of taking all 3 which would probably require to drop rogue/swashbuckler entirely but I think they're that good.

Soranar
2010-01-27, 12:44 PM
Build update

race: human (although now a fighter favored race could work)
alignment: any

Kensai is a fighter variant that gets a focus weapon (can be exotic) in which he becomes proficient and gains +1 to attack and damage with at level 1,5,10,15,20. You lose a lot of class features that should be irrelevant to this build anyway. Obviously the chosen weapon is the spiked chain.

1 Kensai weapon finesse,combat reflexes chosen weapon +1
2 Swordsage weapon focus: spiked chain
3 Swordsage shadow blade Wisdom to AC
4 Kensai
5 Kensai Blind-fight
6 Kensai Mage slayer,pierce magical concealment
7 Kensai chosen weapon +2
8 Kensai improved combat reflexes
9 Kensai pierce magical defenses

Now the problem becomes the bad saves. Evasion can always be taken from a ring or another magic item. Maybe a 2 level dip in paladin with the serenity feat (use Wisdom instead of Charisma) can fix it.

Prime32
2010-01-27, 01:05 PM
The feycraft weapon template from DMG2 turns one-handed weapons into light weapons, and lets you wield light weapons as if you had the Weapon Finesse feat (though it also reduces damage by one size).

You might be able to convince your DM that a feycraft "finessable" weapon would grant you this benefit. Otherwise you could use a kusari-gama (DMG) which is basically a light spiked chain that deals slashing damage.



You don't need Weapon Focus unless it's a prereq for something - +1 attack with a single weapon is pathetic compared to some of the other stuff you could be getting. Knowledge Devotion (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Knowledge_Devotion) would get you +1 to attack and damage for everything, as long as you have at least 1 rank in the relevant Knowledge skill.

In fact, you could replace one fighter level with a level of cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), which would grant you three domains which must include Knowledge (you then trade its domain power for Knowledge Devotion). The War domain will also give you Weapon Focus at that, and the Darkness domain gives you Blind-Fight. Heck, with the master's touch spell you don't even need Exotic Weapon Proficiency!

Plus, if you have decent skill points per level (from high Int and human race) you can use one of the feat slots you freed up for Educated (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Education_%28E%29), which makes all Knowledge skills into class skills for all classes. Now your Knowledge Devotion scales by level, up to +5 attack/damage.

All this for one level. :smallwink: There's a handbook on doing this here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0)

Soranar
2010-01-27, 07:25 PM
1rst,

Spiked chain is a 2 handed weapon and my DM doesn't allow homebrewed material unless he's the one who created it.

Kusagi-sama is considered a completely different weapon, as such it doesn't work with shadow blade.

2nd

Weapon focus is a free swordsage feat, I see no reason not to take it as I want the bonus to AC and access to ToB material without taking feats.

knowledge devotion might be worth it though , I'll have to consider if I have enough Int to pull it off, I doubt it but it might work with my earlier build.

faceroll
2010-01-27, 07:34 PM
Oh yeah, something I forgot. When using a spiked chain it's absolutely vital to nab some strongarm bracers to increase the size category of your weapon. So while the range doesn't get any better it's now a 2d6 weapon instead of 2d4.

That's an average of two more damage. Not worth it.

avr
2010-01-27, 07:55 PM
For bad saves, the Diamond Mind maneuvers are the obvious answer, surely?

Drakevarg
2010-01-27, 07:58 PM
Kensai is a prestige class, no? Unless you're using some system other than 3.5...

Soranar
2010-01-27, 08:38 PM
kensai is also a fighter variant, you'd think they could come up with more than 1 name

And as usual, before mentioning maneuvers, you should realize that maneuvers only work with the right discipline weapon, and few of them overlap.

sofawall
2010-01-27, 08:59 PM
kensai is also a fighter variant, you'd think they could come up with more than 1 name

And as usual, before mentioning maneuvers, you should realize that maneuvers only work with the right discipline weapon, and few of them overlap.

What the hell are you talking about?

Prime32
2010-01-27, 09:06 PM
maneuvers only work with the right discipline weaponNo, they don't. Using a discipline weapon only matters for certain class features and feats.


One level of cloistered cleric and one level of ordained champion gets you four domains and lets you trade their domain powers for Devotion feats or fighter bonus feats. Two levels for 4 feats and spellcasting seems like a nice deal to me (compared to what two levels of fighter would get you).

If you really want feats you could go the silly route and play a cloistered cleric 1/fighter 2/psychic warrior 2/feat rogue 1/sovereign speaker 9/contemplative 1/ordained champion 1 (14 domain powers converted to fighter feats, +5 fighter feats from your other classes). That's 19 fighter bonus feats as a 17th-level character, in addition to casting as a 10th-level cleric (which becomes just crazy if you take the Spontaneous Domain casting ACF).

Soranar
2010-01-27, 09:13 PM
oh wow, we thought you could only use maneuvers with the right weapon, doesn't change the shadow blade requirement but it changes a lot of things

the cloistered cleric dip is a good idea, just hard to get past my DM

Prime32
2010-01-27, 09:21 PM
the cloistered cleric dip is a good idea, just hard to get past my DMHow would the standard cleric go?

Soranar
2010-01-27, 09:25 PM
cleric would probably pass, but a class that entails spending years studying (that you don't take level 1) is a bit weird

it's like when Elan wants to take wizard in OOTS

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-28, 02:43 AM
What the hell are you talking about?

Easy, easy... Dragon Magazine variant, check Cystalkeep.