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Temotei
2010-01-26, 10:43 PM
How would you improve turn undead? What are the most problematic things about it? Is it the chart of turn checks, with a cap of cleric level + 4 HD of undead = most powerful undead affected? Is it the uses per day? The fact that they just run away (unless you're able to destroy them)?

What changes would you make to turn undead, and why?

Saintjebus
2010-01-26, 10:46 PM
The most problematic thing I've found about it is that it is very counterintuitive. I have to consult the PHB every single time I want to use it. That's intrusive. As far as fixes, make it some sort of opposed check- maybe 1d20+ Cha + extra misc turn bonuses vs 1d20+monsters HD+misc bonuses(turn resistance)? That might work, but I'm not much of a homebrewer.

denthor
2010-01-26, 10:49 PM
How would you improve turn undead? What are the most problematic things about it? Is it the chart of turn checks, with a cap of cleric level + 4 HD of undead = most powerful undead affected? Is it the uses per day? The fact that they just run away (unless you're able to destroy them)?

What changes would you make to turn undead, and why?


I am fine with rules as written. The theory is that you can only channel so much energy through your body at one time. So cleric level plus 4 is just fine.

Also if you really look at the rule set it says wave of energy or something like that so your cleric does not even need to see the undead to affect them.

My DM is very stogy about this sort of thing. So no line of sight no effect. He likes to throw up a fog of some kind and say it does not work.

Which means in his opinion it is to powerful. I disagree.

sofawall
2010-01-26, 10:52 PM
The most problematic thing I've found about it is that it is very counterintuitive. I have to consult the PHB every single time I want to use it. That's intrusive. As far as fixes, make it some sort of opposed check- maybe 1d20+ Cha + extra misc turn bonuses vs 1d20+monsters HD+misc bonuses(turn resistance)? That might work, but I'm not much of a homebrewer.

So, your cha vs. their HD?

If you mean cha modifier, this is pretty much always going to suck. If you mean cha itself, holy crap low-level undead will die off in droves.

Temotei
2010-01-26, 10:52 PM
I am fine with rules as written. The theory is that you can only channel so much energy through your body at one time. So cleric level plus 4 is just fine.

I agree for most of the time. Later though, there are some undead that have huge amounts of hit dice, but a lower CR. That throws it off some, so I was wondering if perhaps removing the cap (but making +5 and above very difficult to get) would be a good idea.


Also if you really look at the rule set it says wave of energy or something like that so your cleric does not even need to see the undead to affect them.

Yep. Good thing too. As long as they don't have total cover and are within sixty feet.


My DM is very stogy about this sort of thing. So no line of sight no effect. He likes to throw up a fog of some kind and say it does not work.

I have no idea what stogy means (I'll look it up), but I get the meaning. Sad DM.

Saintjebus
2010-01-26, 11:31 PM
So, your cha vs. their HD?

If you mean cha modifier, this is pretty much always going to suck. If you mean cha itself, holy crap low-level undead will die off in droves.

Hm, you're right. How about Cleric level + cha mod vs HD? That might work better, but somebody with actual number skill would need to run the numbers to see if that's still useless.

Temotei
2010-01-26, 11:37 PM
Hm, you're right. How about Cleric level + cha mod vs HD? That might work better, but somebody with actual number skill would need to run the numbers to see if that's still useless.


roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage

That's weaker than the current system.


1d20 + your Charisma modifier

And at earlier levels, if you were talking actual checks, it sucks to have class levels instead of d20.

Saintjebus
2010-01-27, 12:07 AM
No, I meant 1d20 + cleric lvls + cha mod. This would roll against 1d20 + HD for undead. Or to make it easier, 10+HD+turn modifer(if any).

Irreverent Fool
2010-01-27, 12:08 AM
I improve turn undead by using divine metamagic and just beating the undead to re-death.

There are feats one can take to make turning useful at higher levels. Empowered Turning, Channeled Turning, Disciple of the Sun... As is, I think full casting and basic turning are plenty good enough. Clerics are fairly powerful.

Having to look at the table is a little annoying but it's small enough to slap on the back of your character sheet.

obnoxious
sig

Dimers
2010-01-27, 12:15 AM
there are some undead that have huge amounts of hit dice, but a lower CR. That throws it off some, so I was wondering if perhaps removing the cap (but making +5 and above very difficult to get) would be a good idea.

Hmm. Maybe what WOTC wanted all along was a comparison against CR, not HD. The low-CR monsters like Colossal zombies should be easy to turn, and the high-CR, medium-HD critters are more likely to have turn resistance anyway. So one simplistic fix would be entering CR into the original turn check in place of HD, and removing all turn resistance bonuses.

I think the biggest problem with the turning system is the #HD affected. At high levels, a successful check affects just one foe -- a big change from low levels where you can scatter a roomful of skeletons. It's inconsistent, and it's inconsistent in a non-heroic way -- your Special Godly Power gets less special as you gain power. Secondarily, the inchoate state of the implied-but-not-specified rules for turning/rebuking mortal agents of opposed dieties ... that bugs me, too.

Saintjebus
2010-01-27, 12:17 AM
Right- and if you think about it, in fiction, the priest-ish person can always turn the hordes of minor opponents- it's always the BBEG with ungodly(hehe) turn resistance that gives him an issue. I'm not sure how to emulate that with game mechanics, though....

Temotei
2010-01-27, 12:19 AM
Right- and if you think about it, in fiction, the priest-ish person can always turn the hordes of minor opponents- it's always the BBEG with ungodly(hehe) turn resistance that gives him an issue. I'm not sure how to emulate that with game mechanics, though....

CR?

The BBEG can get big turn resistance, and should probably be immune to destruction, but takes damage from what would normally destroy him/her anyway.

Optimystik
2010-01-27, 08:01 AM
I improve turn undead by using divine metamagic and just beating the undead to re-death.

....

Having to look at the table is a little annoying but it's small enough to slap on the back of your character sheet.

obnoxious
sig

I favor both of these suggestions myself.

Temotei
2010-01-27, 04:51 PM
I favor both of these suggestions myself.

Too bad they do nothing to help.

Optimystik
2010-01-27, 05:07 PM
Too bad they do nothing to help.

You say the chart is problematic, yet making it more accessible during play doesn't help?

And don't get me started on the usefulness of replacing Turn Undead with something... well, useful.

Temotei
2010-01-27, 05:09 PM
You say the chart is problematic, yet making it more accessible during play doesn't help?

And don't get me started on the usefulness of replacing Turn Undead with something... well, useful.

I didn't say the chart was problematic. I asked what was most problematic, and asked for help on improving turn undead itself.

I didn't ask for putting it down on the sheet or divine metamagic uses of turn undead.

Optimystik
2010-01-27, 05:18 PM
I didn't say the chart was problematic.


What are the most problematic things about it? Is it the chart of turn checks,

It seems ambiguous to me, but whatever.

(It's likely that Irreverent Fool thought the same, hence his post.)

Susano-wo
2010-01-27, 05:24 PM
Is the uselessness of Turn undead a high level thing?
Because I haven't played/seen a cleric above 7th, but it always seemed that the lameness of turn undead is that without turn-powered feats, you either DEE-STROY!/turn any undead who aren't super powerful, or you sit there wishing you could use your turn attempts on something.
(though my DM had me using turn attempts to power an exorcism ritual, which was cool and dramatic)

faceroll
2010-01-27, 05:31 PM
In the back of the Ravenloft book, there's an alternative where turning just does damage to undead creatures.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-27, 05:35 PM
In the back of the Ravenloft book, there's an alternative where turning just does damage to undead creatures.

That is reprinted in Complete Divine.

Optimystik
2010-01-27, 05:36 PM
In the back of the Ravenloft book, there's an alternative where turning just does damage to undead creatures.

Exalted Turning [BoED] does something similar.

The Level Turning Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#turningUndeadVariantLevel Check) lets you focus on one powerful undead instead of only being effective against its weak minions.

faceroll
2010-01-27, 05:37 PM
Exalted Turning [BoED] does something similar.

Being exalted sucks, though.

tyckspoon
2010-01-27, 05:48 PM
Is the uselessness of Turn undead a high level thing?
Because I haven't played/seen a cleric above 7th, but it always seemed that the lameness of turn undead is that without turn-powered feats, you either DEE-STROY!/turn any undead who aren't super powerful, or you sit there wishing you could use your turn attempts on something.
(though my DM had me using turn attempts to power an exorcism ritual, which was cool and dramatic)

It depends a lot on how your DM likes to use undead.. but no, it's not limited to high levels. Much of it has to do with how undead scale, which is primarily by HD. Lots of HD, because undead HD kind of suck. For example- your level 7 party has cornered an evil necromantically-inclined Cleric. He has a couple of zombie Ogres as his personal bodyguards/muscle. They're only CR 3; at 4 CR under your level it should be absolutely trivial to get rid of them, and hey, you're a Cleric, so why not Turn them... but they have 8 HD. You have to roll above average to affect them at all, and then you have to roll well again to get enough turning damage to actually hit both of them. And this is something you were only going to do so you could get on with the real business of taking down your evil counterpart- imagine the frustration if you needed to use turning as a tactic at a level where these ogres were actually meant to be threatening.

On the other hand, you could run into him at the head of a small army of really weak undead- maybe he's been slaughtering and raising a local tribe of orcs. They're only 2 HD as zombies. You auto-turn them and destroy 5-7 or so without trying. So.. like I said, it can depend a lot on what your DM does with undead. Still, it's rather depressing that your turning tends to become less effective as you level, because Undead HD scales faster than your turning check. And also that you can easily generate situations where you can send the undead BBEG running while his speedbump muscle sits there and drools blankly.

Temotei
2010-01-27, 05:50 PM
It seems ambiguous to me, but whatever.

(It's likely that Irreverent Fool thought the same, hence his post.)

Oh. What I meant by that was the actual turn checks--is the chart too limited in its use? Is the cap stupid? Is the amount needed for an average check bad? Et cetera.

Thanks all, by the way. I appreciate this. :smallsmile:

Susano-wo
2010-01-27, 08:39 PM
Thanks, Tyckspoon. That makes a lot of sense. I'd suggest to my DM that we make the CR switch if we weren't going to be switching to pathfinder after the current combat zone is done with. :D (I <3 it soooo much, just from looking at the classes and looking into the Combat Maneuver Value thingie :P)

ericgrau
2010-01-27, 08:57 PM
How would you improve turn undead? What are the most problematic things about it? Is it the chart of turn checks, with a cap of cleric level + 4 9 HD of undead = most powerful undead affected? Is it the uses per day? The fact that they just run away (unless you're able to destroy them)?

What changes would you make to turn undead, and why?
Fixed it for you: I'd buy a phylactery of undead turning, buy a circlet of persuasion, and grab the improved turning feat. Maybe extra turning as many times as I want if I tend to face more than a few undead per day. Then I'd remember that anything that runs away is as good as dead anyway once we finish picking off his friends and confront it alone later. Seriously, this is an issue of problem-is-between-the-keyboard-and-chair as they say in tech support (ok, in fairness the rulebooks force you to browse through them to discover this instead of spelling it out for you in your class description).

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-28, 02:50 PM
Here's how smart people boost turn undead.

They go neutral or evil and rebuke. Nothing says borked like commanding many, many times your ECL in HD for any undead that crosses your path. Yes its possible.

ericgrau
2010-01-28, 02:59 PM
Rebuked
A rebuked undead creature cowers as if in awe (attack rolls against the creature get a +2 bonus). The effect lasts 10 rounds.

Commanded
A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.


You can't command more HD of undead than your level, unless you're referring to some cheesy trick to greatly bypass this limitation (not merely the +5 from a feat and an item). In that case, no DM will let it fly.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 03:02 PM
Why not turn the basic Turning/Rebuking effect into a Will Save, and the greater versions (Destroy, Command) into an opposed check?

ericgrau
2010-01-28, 03:09 PM
You could, but will saves vary a lot more than HD, and in the cases where HD varies there's turn resistance to compensate. Some undead would be quite vulnerable and others very hard to turn.

Having seen examples of turning still being effective at high levels, I don't see the point of messing with it except to make sure you hand out the right items. Variants like keying it into saves or turning damage are just fine if you want to do the work of incorporating those systems, but it does take some effort.

Btw if you want to focus on turning and you're afraid of where undead will go when they flee (depends on your campaign), the sun domain allows you to destroy instead of turn 1/day.

Temotei
2010-01-28, 05:30 PM
You could, but will saves vary a lot more than HD, and in the cases where HD varies there's turn resistance to compensate. Some undead would be quite vulnerable and others very hard to turn.

Having seen examples of turning still being effective at high levels, I don't see the point of messing with it except to make sure you hand out the right items. Variants like keying it into saves or turning damage are just fine if you want to do the work of incorporating those systems, but it does take some effort.

Btw if you want to focus on turning and you're afraid of where undead will go when they flee (depends on your campaign), the sun domain allows you to destroy instead of turn 1/day.

I'll have to hand out some items then. :smallsmile:

I ruled that you can alternatively use turning damage from Complete Divine (thanks for the tip guys), as well as normal turning, and normal turning gets a +1 bonus. Paladins also turn undead as a cleric of their level.

How about that?

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-30, 09:47 PM
You can't command more HD of undead than your level, unless you're referring to some cheesy trick to greatly bypass this limitation (not merely the +5 from a feat and an item)Loooooooooool

You post a normal core restriction like those sort of things generally hold outside the SRD.

Remember in core, you can't get extra rage or extra bardic music, much less DMM! Baselines values are not maximums.


In that case, no DM will let it fly.Saying 'No' to a rather simple 1-trick build is more house ruling that not.