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McMindflayer
2010-01-26, 11:39 PM
So, In the description to Sneak attack and sudden strike it says "Whenever the Ninja's target is denied a dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether the target actually has a dexterity bonus or not), The ninja deals an extra 1d6 damage..."

My question stems from the "Denied dexterity bonus" Becuase If I'm wearing heavy armor, Doesn't that deny my Dex bonus to AC?

Douglas
2010-01-26, 11:44 PM
No. It limits your dexterity bonus to AC, but it does not deny it.

That clause for Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike comes into play when your target is flat-footed, when you just feinted against him, when he's stunned, and in a few other unusual circumstances. Nothing so common and persistent as simply wearing heavy armor qualifies.

Seffbasilisk
2010-01-27, 12:29 AM
Alternativly, if you can drop thier strength enough, via poison, shadows, spells, what have you, and make it so that the weight of the armor is greater than their maximum load....

Then yes, they'll be vulnerable to sneak attack and such.

Optimystik
2010-01-27, 07:57 AM
The reason Sneak Attack is better than Sudden Strike: Sneak Attack can trigger just by flanking the target, but Sudden Strike cannot. So Ninjas have to carry around marbles, items that cast grease, etc. to enable their extra damage.

Zom B
2010-01-27, 08:50 AM
All right, since this question has already been answered, let me pose a question of my own:

In the PHBII, there is a feat called Telling Blow that, in summary, adds sneak attack damage whenever you crit. If I have this feat and am sneak attacking an opponent and the attack crits, do I add my sneak attack to the damage again?

EDIT: Nevermind, just checked errata: Add the following sentence to the end of the “Benefit” section: “Skirmish or sneak attack damage is added only once, even if you meet other conditions for adding damage, such as if you scored a critical while the enemy was flat-footed.”

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-27, 08:11 PM
So Ninjas have to carry around marbles, items that cast grease, etc. to enable their extra damage.

Ninjas are meant to use stealth and invisibility to catch their foes by surprise.

Susano-wo
2010-01-27, 09:00 PM
Another weakness (though one that is usually minor) is that Sudden Strike can't be subdual damage, so you can't knock someone out with it. (At least I'm pretty sure that's the case...)

Optimystik
2010-01-27, 09:01 PM
Ninjas are meant to use stealth and invisibility to catch their foes by surprise.

The funny thing about surprise - it's hard to do more than once.

Whereas a flank can happen many times during combat.

Now, you could argue that a ninja only needs to catch you off guard once - and that would be great, if he was up against commoners and experts, rather than CR-appropriate monsters. And never mind the lack of UMD, which means it's even harder for them to catch you by surprise.

Susano-wo
2010-01-27, 09:13 PM
I think that's where the invis comes in, since you can do that multiple times Still weaker than SA, but I'm not sure anyone is arguing otherwise. I mean, I think that's the justification for their supernatural abilities and such

SethFahad
2010-01-28, 02:00 AM
Yes. Correct me if I'm wrong:

Ghost step makes you invisible. It's not the same as invisibility spell.
So, if you strike someone, you don't become visible and can strike again for sneak damage, although if your target has uncanny dodge, he retains his dex bonus and thus you can't sneak him.

Plus, if someone reduces your concealment to less than total (f.e. by splattering flour on you) you can't sneak him.

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-28, 05:28 AM
The funny thing about surprise - it's hard to do more than once.

Whereas a flank can happen many times during combat.

Now, you could argue that a ninja only needs to catch you off guard once - and that would be great, if he was up against commoners and experts, rather than CR-appropriate monsters. And never mind the lack of UMD, which means it's even harder for them to catch you by surprise.

Hence why they have a class feature that grants invisibility. It is also possible to Hide during combat if you can arrange for some sort of concealment. I never said anything about surprise, although that is a good way to start off a battle. Anyway, my comment earlier was supposed to indicate the intent was for a ninja to use stealth and invisibility rather than your suggestion of marbles and grease (although marbles and grease will work fine, it just seems a bit silly to me).

----===----


Yes. Correct me if I'm wrong:

Ghost step makes you invisible. It's not the same as invisibility spell.
So, if you strike someone, you don't become visible and can strike again for sneak damage, although if your target has uncanny dodge, he retains his dex bonus and thus you can't sneak him.

Plus, if someone reduces your concealment to less than total (f.e. by splattering flour on you) you can't sneak him.

That is correct. Ghost Step makes a ninja invisible for 1 entire round, regardless of what actions he takes, because it references the invisible condition rather than the invisibility spell.

Roc Ness
2010-01-28, 05:41 AM
The reason Sneak Attack is better than Sudden Strike: Sneak Attack can trigger just by flanking the target, but Sudden Strike cannot. So Ninjas have to carry around marbles, items that cast grease, etc. to enable their extra damage.

Couldn't you just have extremely high Initiative?

Also, how do you get really high initiative?

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-28, 07:36 AM
Also, how do you get really high initiative?

Beyond a high Dex and Improved Initiative? There are ways, but most of them are highly specific. For example: There's a halfling racial feat in Races of the Wild that lets you add your Wisdom bonus to initiative checks, or the Dread Commando prestige class which grants you and allies within range a competence bonus on initiative equal to your class level.

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 07:52 AM
Hence why they have a class feature that grants invisibility. It is also possible to Hide during combat if you can arrange for some sort of concealment. I never said anything about surprise, although that is a good way to start off a battle. Anyway, my comment earlier was supposed to indicate the intent was for a ninja to use stealth and invisibility rather than your suggestion of marbles and grease (although marbles and grease will work fine, it just seems a bit silly to me).

Inivisibility is handy - but at low levels, they simply can't turn invisible that often, while at high levels, far too many enemies can see through it. High Wis at low levels gets you more uses, but investing in it heavily makes you MAD - you've got less points available for your Dex and Int, causing you to perform poorly at your skillmonkey role, and lower strength (for non-SS damage). Meanwhile the Rogue is UMD-ing Invisibility (and Greater Invisibility) from a variety of sources, and don't get me started on the Spellthief. Or both are simply not bothering to hide, and wailing on a flanked opponent for many d6s at a time, leaving their swift actions open for other uses.

Hiding during combat is very difficult, because you have to break line of sight to all of your opponents first. If ANY class deserved HiPS, it's a ninja, but for some asinine reason WotC didn't give it to them.

Why are marbles and grease silly? Throwing down something slippery and mundane seems to me a very ninja-esque thing to do.


Couldn't you just have extremely high Initiative?

Also, how do you get really high initiative?

Sure you can - but it tends to only matter once.

High initiative comes from Dexterity - Ninjas have less than rogues, however, because they need high Wis for their ki pools, Int for skills and Strength to do decent damage when their tricks run dry, as above.

Volkov
2010-01-28, 07:57 AM
Against Balors, ninjas are screwed in my experience, while a rogue is fine just as long as they can get a poor sap to help them flank the demon.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 08:56 AM
Couldn't you just have extremely high Initiative?

Also, how do you get really high initiative?

Here:

Improved Init
Dex mod
+1 Eager Warning Spiked Gauntlet
Shape Soulmeld (Bluesteel Bracers)
Quick Reconiter (SIC)
Wands of Nerveskitter


Those are the unrestricted ways of boosting your Init.

Zom B
2010-01-28, 09:12 AM
Here:

Improved Init
Dex mod
+1 Eager Warning Spiked Gauntlet
Shape Soulmeld (Bluesteel Bracers)
Factotum 3
Quick Reconiter (SIC)
Wands of Nerveskitter


Those are the unrestricted ways of boosting your Init.

Doesn't the Street Fighter (or whatever it is called) PrC give you an Initiative boost?

EDIT: Yup, you get +1 at 1st level and it scales every few levels from there.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 09:31 AM
Doesn't the Street Fighter (or whatever it is called) PrC give you an Initiative boost?

EDIT: Yup, you get +1 at 1st level and it scales every few levels from there.

That's class-specific. I should probably edit out Factotum...

Blackfang108
2010-01-28, 09:36 AM
That's class-specific. I should probably edit out Factotum...

Either that or Edit in Warblade 2.

2xMachina
2010-01-28, 09:52 AM
I thought Swordsage was the one with Ini+? Quick to Act or something like that.