Why doesn't Redcloak retire?

[R. Malcovitch]

Xykon has made it abundantly clear that he really doesn't care about Redcloak as an individual, just as a means to an end, and that he will accept another goblin high priest without remorse. Redcloak has the culmination of his dream literally in front of him; he has built a stable goblin nation, one that seems to be functioning perfectly well. The dream is coming true without the use of WMDs at all; why does Redcloak still pursue the Gate plan?

He could give the Crimson Mantle to another goblin cleric, Jirix for example, or even Tsukiko, and take up rulership of Azure City full time. If Xykon is too petty to allow his slave to leave then he could fake his own death, or even actually die but schedule a resurrection. Obviously this won't happen for reasons of plot, but from a purely logical standpoint what does Redcloak have to gain by staying with Xykon and the Plan?

[Nu]

Redcloak is a cleric. He's on a sacred mission given to him by his god. That isn't the kind of thing he would just put aside.

Furthermore, the running of the new goblin state in Azure city could be handled effectively by someone else, while Redcloak is probably THE most qualified goblin on the entire planet for pursuing his plan for the gates.

[Kabarakh]

read SoD... it's all in there (woohoo really badass monologe)

[Asta Kask]

Evil has a really crappy pension plan. He couldn't afford it, what with all the child support to goblin (ex)-maidens all over the country.

[blueblade]

Yeah, without going into SOD spoilers, a very similar argument is made to Redcloak, which sort of shows that maybe his Wisdom isn't as high as he thinks it is...

[Milandros]

Indeed. Read SoD. It shows quite clearly why Redcloak simply isn't psychologically able to give up "the Plan". It would mean that some of his previous choices were bad ones - and he's not willing to admit that.

[Conuly]

Aside from Redcloak's issues with giving up, would Xykon even LET him retire? The only way RC is getting out of this mess he's gotten himself into is in a coffin.

[TreesOfDeath]

Read Start of Darkness.
It explaines everything perfectly, and its one of the most awesome things ever writeen. Its as funny as the comic on a good day (maybe funnier), but deep dark and just plain brilliant.

Short answear, Hes obsessed, its a mission from god, hes given too much to step down (and if you haven't read SOD, you don't know just how much that is), and hes stubborn as hell.

And of course, Xykon wouldn't let him quit

[Shhalahr Windrider]

…hes given too much to step down (and if you haven't read SOD, you don't know just how much that is)…
And yet, no matter how much he’s given up, it’s still the Sunk Cost Fallacy (http://lesswrong.com/lw/at/sunk_cost_fallacy/).

Never let it be said Redcloak is too logical. He’s based the majority of his life on a classic fallacy. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

There's another important issue to remember here. Redcloak is something like 50 or 60 years old at this point, and for a goblin, that's ANCIENT. It's only the magic of the Crimson Mantle that has kept him alive and relatively young-looking for all this time. If he gives up the cloak, who's to say that he won't be dead of old age inside a week? Wouldn't be much of a retirement!

[The Pink Ninja]

You really don't understand anything about Redcloak, do you?

He's sacrificed everything to get this far, all with the ultimate goal of making the goblins the world's dominant species. He's not doing this to help Xykon or for Xykon's approval. He won't stop until he's gone all the way.

Also Xykon would kill him if he tried to stop and wreck the goblin nation while he was at it.

He's aiming to help goblins the world over, not just the handful he has in Azure city.


even Tsukiko

WHAT?

She isn't a Goblin. The Red Mantle is the symbol of the High Priest of goblins. Also RC hates human in general and Tsukiko in particular.

Have you even read oots?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

There's another important issue to remember here. Redcloak is something like 50 or 60 years old at this point…
No, he’s not anywhere near 60. And if he’s in his 50s, it’s early 50s.

Start of Darkness
He entered into full priesthood only 34 years before the start of OotS. While we don’t know how old Redcloak was at the time, the little information we have on OotS-goblin lifespans suggest he was nowhere near 26 at the time.

I’d peg him as mid-to-late 40’s. Though either way you are correct that he is quite old for a goblin.


If he gives up the cloak, who's to say that he won't be dead of old age inside a week? Wouldn't be much of a retirement!
Still beats the kind of death he’s likely to have making a hanging out with Xykon. Also preferable to getting his soul unmade entirely by the Snarl, which is another risk he runs with this crazy Plan.

[Forbiddenwar]

No, he’s not anywhere near 60. And if he’s in his 50s, it’s early 50s.

Start of Darkness
He entered into full priesthood only 34 years before the start of OotS. While we don’t know how old Redcloak was at the time, the little information we have on OotS-goblin lifespans suggest he was nowhere near 26 at the time.

I’d peg him as mid-to-late 40’s. Though either way you are correct that he is quite old for a goblin.


Still beats the kind of death he’s likely to have making a hanging out with Xykon. Also preferable to getting his soul unmade entirely by the Snarl, which is another risk he runs with this crazy Plan.

Further SODs and War And XPs

However, he isn't a mid-to late 40 year old goblin. He is stuck in time due to the redcloak, so he is still the adolescent goblin (judging on the conversation) he was when he first put on the cloak. Right Eye's changing perspective as he aged naturally demonstrates this. And Rich's comments in War and Xps confirms it.

Retire? at 16? you got to be kidding

[Morquard]

To those that said "read SOD":
Well yes, he made bad choices in the past and terrible sacrifices, but he could justify it to himself if he wanted to quit.
"I would never have been able to build the goblin nation and help my people, if I had not allied with Xykon and did all this. Now I achived my goal, it wasn't all in vain"

I don't think he would.

Also as people said, Xykon wouldn't let him. Sure Xykon is willing to kill RC if necessary and give the cloak to someone else, but that has to be Xykon's decission to make. If Redcloac came to him and said he'd quit... well Xykon would say "Oh you want ot quit because you have a goblin nation now? [a few Maximized Meteor Swarms later] What goblin nation?"

[SoC175]

Even without the high costs he had to pay in SoD: He's a cleric and it's the will of his deity. That should be more than enough motivation for him to do whatever it takes

[NerfTW]

Well, for starters, Xykon would kill him.


Except that only Redcloak knows the ritual.

Even if Redcloak were to tell the ritual to someone else, that means that he isn't there to ensure the gate isn't just used to take over the world.

And we're assuming that the mantle isn't some required portion of the ritual as he knows it. We have no proof it's the EXACT same ritual as the one used by Lirian and Dorukon. And even then, they had a paladin with them and might have needed a divine artifact as well.

And on top of all that, as mentioned, in SOD:
He has tried to retire. But by this point, he NEEDS to see it through or else everything was for naught. They did accomplish a safe goblin city at one point, and it was destroyed by Xykon.

[Asis]

Indeed. Read SoD. It shows quite clearly why Redcloak simply isn't psychologically able to give up "the Plan". It would mean that some of his previous choices were bad ones - and he's not willing to admit that.
Maybe :miko: and :redcloak: should start a club. How about 'Egyptian's boat enthusiasts against umcomfortable truths'
I'd have never thought that they would have so many things in common... their attitude, their blind devotion to a god, their careless approach to consequences, their hypocrisy, the nature of their magic...I'll better stop here, lest I tempt myself to write in the Crack Pairings thread.

[Kish]

And we're assuming that the mantle isn't some required portion of the ritual as he knows it. We have no proof it's the EXACT same ritual as the one used by Lirian and Dorukon.
Considering that the purpose of Redcloak's ritual is "let my god control the location of an existing Gate," and the ritual Lirian and Dorukan used was "seal these rifts with Gates," I'd say we know it can't be the exact same ritual, and may not even be related beyond "you need an Epic-level arcane and divine spellcaster for this one, and a mid-plus-level arcane and divine spellcaster for this one."


I'd have never thought that they would have so many things in common... No? I thought right after the strip where Redcloak gave Miko his indignant speech that each of Redcloak and Miko clearly and correctly saw the other's flaws.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Retire? at 16? you got to be kidding
Is there something I missed that indicated he was 16 at the start of Start of Darkness? If so, that would make him 51, going on 52 now. (50 at the start of the strip.)

Start of Darkness semi-spoiler
Of course, the point of bringing up his age here wasn’t whether or not his mentality was frozen in time with his body. Rather it was speculation on whether removing the Crimson Mantle would retroactively age him.


To those that said "read SOD":
Well yes, he made bad choices in the past and terrible sacrifices, but he could justify it to himself if he wanted to quit.
Indeed. But SOD also makes it quite clear that Redcloak isn’t willing to do that. The book shows his reasoning is flawed. Redcloak has fallen for his sunk costs hook, line, and sinker. And one particular sunk cost is pricey enough to make him extremely resistant to realizing past costs do not justify present and future foolishness.

People are simply bringing up SOD, not to argue for the sunk costs fallacy, but to show why Redcloak would buy into it.


Well, for starters, Xykon would kill him.


Except that only Redcloak knows the ritual.
Xykon’s threat to give the Crimson Mantle to Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) implies that Xykon knows the Mantle bestows knowledge of the ritual.

Start of Darkness
In Start of Darkness, this is made explicit. Redcloak outright tells Xykon that the knowledge is bestowed by the mantle when they first let him on the plan. Xykon knows that Redcloak is expendable. All he needs is the knowledge in the Mantle.

Killing Redcloak is no barrier to Xykon completing the ritual.

[factotum]

I’d peg him as mid-to-late 40’s. Though either way you are correct that he is quite old for a goblin.


SOD spoilers:


Right-Eye was Redcloak's YOUNGER brother, and he was grey-haired (although apparently still reasonably fit) a year before the online strip started. I also don't see Redcloak being only 45--that would require him to have become a full priest at the age of just 11.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

SOD spoilers:


Right-Eye was Redcloak's YOUNGER brother, and he was grey-haired (although apparently still reasonably fit) a year before the online strip started. I also don't see Redcloak being only 45--that would require him to have become a full priest at the age of just 11.

At what age are OotS goblins considered adults? Please provide sources.


Right-Eye having gray hair in his 30’s/40’s just shows that goblins have accelerated lifespans compared to humans.

Of course, even among humans, gray hair isn’t always an accurate sign of age. Just ask Steve Martin

[AceOfFools]

To those that said "read SOD":
Well yes, he made bad choices in the past and terrible sacrifices, but he could justify it to himself if he wanted to quit.
"I would never have been able to build the goblin nation and help my people, if I had not allied with Xykon and did all this. Now I achived my goal, it wasn't all in vain"
...
Also, 701 establishes that so far it isn't enough for him. That's why he tells himself "It'll all be worth it, you'll see."

[Optimystik]

Also, 701 establishes that so far it isn't enough for him. That's why he tells himself "It'll all be worth it, you'll see."

Methinks he's talking to his brother there. :smallamused:

[AceOfFools]

Methinks he's talking to his brother there. :smallamused:

Possibly.

Although regardless of weather he's talking to or about his brother, he's still saying "It will be worth it," suggesting it isn't worth it yet.

[Strawberries]

I haven't read Start of Darkness, so correct me if I state something incorrectly, but, from what I gather from the online comics (and the spoilers from SoD I did read), considering "retirement" is very far from Redcloak character.

Redcloak's driving force is his cause. He isn't going to be satisfied with just having built a goblin city. His cause is to gain equality for the goblinkind (which somewhere along the line he has translated as dominance for the goblinkind), and he is convinced that the only way to obtain this is to follow trough with his plan. He himself states that his duty is to shepherd ALL of the goblin people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), and he would be remiss if he forgot all the other goblins that aren't in Azure City and still suffer at the hands of the other races.

Besides, there is the matter of how "stable" the situation in Azure city would turn out to be. Redcloak has shown to be aware of the danger that a city of goblins is going to face. It's likely that he thinks that the only way to grant security to goblins ibn Azure City is,once again, by following his plan to the end.



He could give the Crimson Mantle to another goblin cleric, Jirix for example, or even Tsukiko, and take up rulership of Azure City full time.

Jirix I could see, if he was for some reason unable to carry on himself with the plan (due to being seriously injuried or dying, for instance), but there is no way he would give it to Tsukiko. The Crimson Mantle is a sacred symbol of the goblin people, and Redcloak is a self-proclaimed specieist.

[Optimystik]

Possibly.

Although regardless of weather he's talking to or about his brother, he's still saying "It will be worth it," suggesting it isn't worth it yet.

Oh trust me, I agree - nor do I think it will ever be worth it, RC's prediction to the contrary.

(Please note - my amusement in my previous post was at Redcloak having to face his brother in the mirror, not at any perceived error on your part.)

@ Strawberries - I don't see anything in your assessment that I disagree with.

[TriForce]

Also, 701 establishes that so far it isn't enough for him. That's why he tells himself "It'll all be worth it, you'll see."

you know, i have the sneaking suspicion that RC is going to order something that will lead a lot of hobgoblins to their deaths....

[Zevox]

As others have said, read Start of Darkness. Establishing a Goblin kingdom is not Redcloak's dream. He's aiming for more, and he needs Xykon for that. And Xykon wouldn't just let him quit anyway - he'd kill him if he tried.

Re: Redcloak's age - War and XPs says he's 54. Might be 55 now given how much time has passed since the events of that book.

Zevox

[AceOfFools]

Oh trust me, I agree - nor do I think it will ever be worth it, RC's prediction to the contrary.

(Please note - my amusement in my previous post was at Redcloak having to face his brother in the mirror, not at any perceived error on your part.)

@ Strawberries - I don't see anything in your assessment that I disagree with.
I don't think anything could be worth it to Redcloak after what sacrificed in Start of Darkness. But he keeps doing more because he's not going to let that sacrifice be for nothing.

It's weird to be going back and forth friendly agreeing with someone on the Internet.

[Dr.Epic]

Why would Redcloak settle for one nation when he can have the entire world? It's all in SoD by the way.

[Nimrod's Son]

Of course, even among humans, gray hair isn’t always an accurate sign of age. Just ask Steve Martin.
By the end of SoD, Right-Eye doesn't just have white hair but also wrinkles and liver-spots, which puts his age roughly analogous with Shojo's. And Redcloak is probably at least five years older than him, to judge from the height differences when the book opens.

[Zevox]

Why would Redcloak settle for one nation when he can have the entire world? It's all in SoD by the way.
I think you're confused. Redcloak doesn't want to conquer the world - that's Xykon.

Zevox

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Re: Redcloak's age - War and XPs says he's 54. Might be 55 now given how much time has passed since the events of that book.
All right! Source!

Yeah, it’s been the better part of a year by all accounts. I’m willing to bet Redcloak’s seen a birthday in that time.

Hey! Maybe the current event is a speech for the Supreme Leader’s Birthday Party! :smalltongue:


By the end of SoD, Right-Eye doesn't just have white hair but also wrinkles and liver-spots, which puts his age roughly analogous with Shojo's.
As pointed out, Goblins have shorter life spans.

Ignoring for a moment that wrinkles and liver-spots can occur prematurely as well as gray hair, this at best puts him in the same equivalent area of his lifespan as Shojo. Not the same age. I believe Shojo was established as being in his Seventies. Meanwhile Redcloak, a.k.a. “Big Brother” is only 54 or 55. Do the math.

[Optimystik]

Ignoring for a moment that wrinkles and liver-spots can occur prematurely as well as gray hair, this at best puts him in the same equivalent area of his lifespan as Shojo. Not the same age. I believe Shojo was established as being in his Seventies. Meanwhile Redcloak, a.k.a. “Big Brother” is only 54 or 55. Do the math.

Isn't that what "analagous" means? :smallconfused:

I don't think he was actually saying that Right-Eye was the same age as Shojo - more along the lines of "they were both venerable."

[Nimrod's Son]

Isn't that what "analagous" means? :smallconfused:

I don't think he was actually saying that Right-Eye was the same age as Shojo - more along the lines of "they were both venerable."
Yes, exactly.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Isn't that what "analagous" means? :smallconfused:"
Misread. Sorry.

[Lecan]

Have you even read oots?

I sometimes wonder the same thing about a lot of posters here...

[Devils_Advocate]

It seems pretty clear that Redcloak needs to betray Xykon at exactly the right time in order not to risk Xykon obliterating everything that he has achieved. Also, he probably still does want Xykon's help. As dangerous as messing around with the Gates is, it's really the only way to guarantee that Gobtopia will last indefinitely. As it is, there's a definite possibility that a bunch of punks might yet put together a strong enough alliance to invade and conquer his country. Even if not anytime soon, in the long term. I don't think that Redcloak can live with that sort of uncertainty.


Yeah, without going into SOD spoilers, a very similar argument is made to Redcloak, which sort of shows that maybe his Wisdom isn't as high as he thinks it is...

Never let it be said Redcloak is too logical. He’s based the majority of his life on a classic fallacy. :smalltongue:
In D&D, a good Wisdom score provides willpower and common sense. It's quite supportive of stubbornly clinging to some intuitively appealing notion. And intelligent, logical people can be quite skilled at rationalization (http://lesswrong.com/lw/ju/rationalization/).

Also, Redcloak is pretty clearly Lawful. (I think he even has the Law domain. That and Destruction.) He's not going to just up and change his mind all of the sudden. Certainly he's not going to abandon his god's plan. He's very committed to seeing this through. (Oh, so very committed.)

Personally, I'm not convinced that pursuing control of a Gate isn't genuinely a good idea for him at this point.


Maybe :miko: and :redcloak: should start a club. How about 'Egyptian's boat enthusiasts against umcomfortable truths'
I'd have never thought that they would have so many things in common... their attitude, their blind devotion to a god, their careless approach to consequences, their hypocrisy, the nature of their magic...I'll better stop here, lest I tempt myself to write in the Crack Pairings thread.
I can imagine an Ironic Hell where Miko and Redcloak are forced to spend eternity together.

Except I don't think that either of them is bad enough to deserve that.

[hamishspence]

If Miko is bad enough to get into Acheron, and Redcloak gets excluded from the goblin afterlife by The Dark One for finally rebelling against The Plan, but is "good enough" not to get into The Nine Hells, it could be possible.

Acheron is not exactly a hell, but it is a somewhat unpleasant afterlife.

The notion of Redcloak and Miko meeting up in the afterlife, and not fighting each other, is interesting to me.

[ThePhantasm]

The notion of Redcloak and Miko meeting up in the afterlife, and not fighting each other, is interesting to me.

That's probably one of the very few things that would make the return of the Miko character into the story worthwhile. If only for a few strips.

[Devils_Advocate]

I'd place Miko in Pandemonium, personally, based more on thematic appropriateness than on any judgment about her alignment. Violently insane? Check and double check! (Belkar leans more towards insanely violent, in contrast.)

It would have plenty of bad guys for her to fight, which I'm sure she'd appreciate.

[factotum]

I'd place Miko in Pandemonium, personally, based more on thematic appropriateness than on any judgment about her alignment.

She was Lawful Good all her life. Towards the end of it, she performed ONE evil act, which was sufficient to make her Fall as a paladin, but I don't think it was enough to flip her over to Evil and send her to Pandemonium, somehow, no matter how thematically appropriate you might see it as.

[hamishspence]

All she'd need to be would be Chaotic Neutral with evil tendencies.

Similar with Acheron- Lawful Neutral with evil tendencies.

She may have been "Lawful Good all her life" but she was "pushing and pushing at the boundaries of her code and alignment, until she finally broke through"

[factotum]

All she'd need to be would be Chaotic Neutral with evil tendencies.


Lawful Good->Chaotic Neutral? For ONE arguably evil act? I don't think so, somehow.

[hamishspence]

For one arguably very chaotic and potentially very evil act- murder. Of the ruler. Without even trying the law- even after a fellow paladin suggested it.

There is precedent for single acts causing full alignment changes- and if Miko was only "borderline Lawful Good" as the commentaries suggest, she makes a good candidate.

And it wasn't the only act- her attempt to kill Hinjo- her breakout from prison based on very flimsy justifications, etc.

[Morthis]

Several mentions of RC's objective of world domination, except that's never been his objective. Equality has been. Xykon wants world domination.

[Optimystik]

For one arguably very chaotic and potentially very evil act- murder. Of the ruler. Without even trying the law- even after a fellow paladin suggested it.

There is precedent for single acts causing full alignment changes- and if Miko was only "borderline Lawful Good" as the commentaries suggest, she makes a good candidate.

And it wasn't the only act- her attempt to kill Hinjo- her breakout from prison based on very flimsy justifications, etc.

While questionably sane at best, her actions were based on what she thought was right. She disregarded due process, not because the concept wasn't important to her, but because she believed it to be corrupted - she says as much twice.

By killing Shojo, she was trying to save Azure City's government, not overthrow it. That doesn't make her actions right, but it does mean that she might not be Chaotic yet.

I'd peg her for Acheron (LN/e) or Gehenna (NE/l) - I don't think she shifted enough towards Chaos to bypass Neutral, but there's definitely some evil in the mix.

[hamishspence]

Same here- though Gehenna is going a bit far.

The Outlands, for Neutral characters, is probably a better candidate, if she got all the way to Neutral on the Law-Chaos axis.

If not, any of Acheron, Mechanus, and Arcadia are feasible IMO, with Celestia and the Nine Hells being both, to me, longer shots (but still possible)

[Morthis]

Can RC even retire btw? The end of SoD suggests that doing so would cost him pretty much all his cleric levels (since he wouldn't receive spells anymore). If that's the case, then that's definitely yet another reason why it's not going to happen.

[Ancalagon]

Where did you get that? He's a level 16ish cleric and he will stay that.

What happens if he removes the Red Cloak (does he sleep while wearing it?) is another discussion (will he age to the age he should have or did the cloak just stop the aging process and he would go on aging normally?) is a different question.

[Optimystik]

Where did you get that? He's a level 16ish cleric and he will stay that.

He might keep his cleric levels, but giving up the cloak will almost certainly make him an Ex-Cleric 16. Plenty of hitpoints but not much else.

[Jan Mattys]

Several mentions of RC's objective of world domination, except that's never been his objective. Equality has been. Xykon wants world domination.

Exactly.

In a way (and before you all start writing "read SOD", I did), it is true that the Plan is no longer necessary.

Goblinoids now have the equal ground Redcloak ever hoped for, so there's no need for the Plan. Redcloak would have his dream fullfilled just by making Gobbotopia a lasting kingdom.

After that (and Redcloak says so in SoD), if the goblinoids still screw up, it's just their fault.

And considering Gobbotopia is stable and looks promising, has trade routes, and so on and so forth, I'd say Redcloak has been able to fullfill the Dark One's dream for equality in an excellent way. If he were (grammar check?) to die anytime soon, I think he'd end up at the right side of the Dark One for what he has achieved.

Being a Cleric, he couldn't ask for a better reward, I think.

The only real problem is that he can't go tell Xykon "I've got what I want, thanks and goodbye", because Azure City would turn into a smoking crater in a matter of seconds. Xykon is petty like that...

But again, technically, the Plan is not needed anymore.

[Ancalagon]

He might keep his cleric levels, but giving up the cloak will almost certainly make him an Ex-Cleric 16. Plenty of hitpoints but not much else.

Why? I think it'd depend on how exactly if he gives it up.
If he throws it away and says "This all sucks", then yes, the Dark One might make him an ex-cleric.

If he still keeps his faith and just passes on the plan? Why should he lose his cleric-abilities.

The crimson mantle does not add levels as far as we know - and even if it did, we should not assume you'll loose them with giving up the cloak. So, unless Redcloak betrays the Dark One somehow in a mean way and stops being "a cleric of the Dark One" he should be able to keep his levels, cloak or no cloak.

Where did you find evidence that the cloak is tied to levels or that the cloak is tied to the class?

Right now, we have no hint at all to judge how the dark one might react to what.

[Optimystik]

If he still keeps his faith and just passes on the plan? Why should he lose his cleric-abilities.

Because abandoning the Plan might count as a "gross violation" to the Dark One.


The crimson mantle does not add levels as far as we know - and even if it did, we should not assume you'll loose them with giving up the cloak. So, unless Redcloak betrays the Dark One somehow in a mean way and stops being "a cleric of the Dark One" he should be able to keep his levels, cloak or no cloak.

Where did you find evidence that the cloak is tied to levels or that the cloak is tied to the class?

Within moments of donning the Cloak, he instantly went from being a level 1 cleric (freshly ordained, pg. 9), to being able to one-shot a paladin mount (with a ranged spell, no less, pg. 14) followed by one-shotting the paladin himself (who was at least 5th level if he had a mount, and bore no wounds.)

So I strongly believe the cloak grants levels, to go with the Plan.


Right now, we have no hint at all to judge how the dark one might react to what.

You're right, we don't... but if Right-Eye's assessment of him is correct, it will be poorly.

[SteveMB]

There are some pragmatic reasons (noted earlier in the thread) for why Redcloak might think that going ahead with the Plan is the best option, but I think they're secondary to his need to justify everything he's been through and everything he's done so far. The former, even to the extent that they have logical merit, have really become rationalizations for the latter in his mind, IMO.

[Ancalagon]

Because abandoning the Plan might count as a "gross violation" to the Dark One.

You assume that. You don't know. You cannot know.
Therefore: That might depend on HOW the cloak is given up and what other motives play a role in that.



Within moments of donning the Cloak, he instantly went from being a level 1 cleric (freshly ordained, pg. 9), to being able to one-shot a paladin mount (with a ranged spell, no less, pg. 14) followed by one-shotting the paladin himself (who was at least 5th level if he had a mount, and bore no wounds.)

So I strongly believe the cloak grants levels, to go with the Plan.

You have no idea if he was only level 1. You have no idea if that power is permanent-levels (as in "you gain lots of XP) or temporary ones (increase your cleric level by X if you are cleric of the dark one).
Also, Redcloak gained quite a few levels since then so he'll at least be able to keep those (see above).



You're right, we don't... but if Right-Eye's assessment of him is correct, it will be poorly.

Right-Eye has no idea himself. He's not even a cleric or othervise religiously learned.
As I said: It all depends on the exact circumstances of the "giving up the plan".

You also have to admit that Redcloak did a lot for the plan and the Dark One knows that. So I really, really don't see the need for him to losing levels/spells/the Dark Ones favour should he give up the cloak while still maintaining his cleric-status.

You *think* something but that option is just as valid as the other one - as we do not really have any insight into how the cloak works and how the Dark One thinks or what his opinion about Redcloak is.

[Ancalagon]

There are some pragmatic reasons (noted earlier in the thread) for why Redcloak might think that going ahead with the Plan is the best option, but I think they're secondary to his need to justify everything he's been through and everything he's done so far. The former, even to the extent that they have logical merit, have really become rationalizations for the latter in his mind, IMO.

I still think it started with the former but the latter is, since the end of SoD, the main reason for anything. Redcloak as to proof that "it was worth it": to himself, to Right-Eye, to the Dark One, to the goblins he sacrificed (to those he murdered!), basically to the universe itself.

[Optimystik]

You assume that. You don't know. You cannot know.

I think that's what the word "might" means.



You have no idea if he was only level 1.

So he was a cleric before becoming a cleric? That would be quite the feat. :smalltongue:

Even if he somehow did have a level or two, it's still quite unbelievable that he had the power to instakill a paladin and his mount with two actions before putting the unholy artifact around his shoulders.


You have no idea if that power is permanent-levels (as in "you gain lots of XP) or temporary ones (increase your cleric level by X if you are cleric of the dark one).

Either way, they were bestowed by the cloak - they can feasibly be taken away, or negative levels bestowed for abandoning it. Artifacts do nutty things like that all the time.


Also, Redcloak gained quite a few levels since then so he'll at least be able to keep those (see above).

I never disputed this.


Right-Eye has no idea himself. He's not even a cleric or othervise religiously learned.

Yet somehow, I doubt he is wrong.


You also have to admit that Redcloak did a lot for the plan and the Dark One knows that. So I really, really don't see the need for him to losing levels/spells/the Dark Ones favour should he give up the cloak while still maintaining his cleric-status.

We'll have to see. Historically, Evil gods don't usually care how dedicated you were to their plans if you fail to carry them out in the end. That's what makes them Evil, you see.


You *think* something but that option is just as valid as the other one - as we do not really have any insight into how the cloak works and how the Dark One thinks or what his opinion about Redcloak is.

This entire thread is speculatory in nature. I don't have to preface every post with "I think" - it should be implied.

[Jan Mattys]

There are some pragmatic reasons (noted earlier in the thread) for why Redcloak might think that going ahead with the Plan is the best option, but I think they're secondary to his need to justify everything he's been through and everything he's done so far. The former, even to the extent that they have logical merit, have really become rationalizations for the latter in his mind, IMO.

This seems to be the popular way of seeing it. I disagree.

Redcloak now has everything he hoped for. He simply doesn't need the Plan anymore, because trying to further the Plan, he got much more. Basically, he achieved the same thing without the "threaten the Gods" part of the Plan.

If there weren't a Xykon around, I think Redcloak would just stop at Azure City and help establish Gobbotopia as kingdom made to last.

Redcloak has done quite a few horrible things, but not for "the Plan". The Plan was the mean, not the end. The end was goblin equality and a fair starting ground for goblinoids.

Now he has it. He can sit on his chair, look at Azure City sunset, and think "I had to endure pain and work hard, but damn, I made it".

Redcloak in SoD is a coward and a tragic figure because he is not able to see that he's sacrificing too much to reach his goal. But he's wise, and I'm sure he knows he has ALREADY achieved his goal, by now. So no need for rationalization... what he wanted is here. Still weak, still fragile, but it's here.

I think, as I stated, that now Xykon (and his likely violent reaction once he gets told that the "let's conquer the world" plan is no more interesting to Redcloak) is exactly what stands between Redcloak and his much deserved (your mileage may vary on this) peace.

Of course, the fact that Xykon's hypotetical reaction will likely not just kill Redcloak, but incinerate the whole utopia on the spot just out of spite, makes it quite pointless to argue about whys or whens. Redcloak is bound to go on, because he knows too well he can't stop.

Basically, his options are:
Option A: I achieve Gobbotopia, I tell Xykon I'm happy, Xykon destroys me and Gobbotopia.
Option B: I achieve Gobbotopia, I carry on the Plan, I trick Xykon, I achieve a durable Gobbotopia by giving the Dark One control of the Snarl, in this world or in the next.

Obviously, Option B has its merits. This doesn't mean, though, that he hasn't achieved his goal NOW. He has. It's just that he can't stop, because stopping has a high chance to turn his new and shiny achievement into scorched land as the eye can see.

[Ancalagon]

So he was a cleric before becoming a cleric? That would be quite the feat. :smalltongue:

Even if he somehow did have a level or two, it's still quite unbelievable that he had the power to instakill a paladin and his mount with two actions before putting the unholy artifact around his shoulders.

First, he "finally earned the right to wear the white cloak". We don't know if you have to be cleric1 or cleric5 for that (5 sounds a bit high). But I'd assume he was already cleric.

He was enraged. Rage is also a magic plot device. Dark Side of the Force and Stuff. We know that Rich is rooted in the rules but also often goes with the Power of Plot to make an important point.


Either way, they were bestowed by the cloak - they can feasibly be taken away, or negative levels bestowed for abandoning it. Artifacts do nutty things like that all the time.

Yeah. Nutty things like letting the guy keep the level. ;) Whatever the plot demands. We still stand at 50/50 (accurdate to the tenth digit after the point) and you still try to convince me my point might be somewhat less probable than yours.



I never disputed this.

Good. Then we only have to argue how many he did gain on his own (does it count LEVELS or XP?). If it counts xp to get the needed levels then Redcloak would probably loose barely one level (16 to 17 when he gained the xp for 3 to 6 or so "back then"). Note this still relies on the cloak taking the xp in the first place.
You can argue "it does not work that way, it's always levels". Which is probably right. But we still had to consider HOW many levels we are talking about. And I also still think the Cloak does not *necessarily* take those levels at all.



Yet somehow, I doubt he is wrong.

Gut feeling? Now that's an awesome citation. ;)


We'll have to see. Historically, Evil gods don't usually care how dedicated you were to their plans if you fail to carry them out in the end. That's what makes them Evil, you see.

Funny that you argue that way, given what we saw from the Dark One (he seemed to be a fair and reasonable guy so far, even when he's evil) and given what Rich does with alignment. And given his text on alignment (in "gaming" on this site, a text you probably have read).
"It's an evil god and thus he's unreliable and won't be able to see what that goblin did for him and see why he puts down the cloak"... that's not a point, not with this author.
I'm NOT saying it could not happen that way. It's just something we have to see and that your claim here means nothing until we did.


This entire thread is speculatory in nature. I don't have to preface every post with "I think" - it should be implied.

Oh, it is. But this discussion does not start with your saying "Redcloak might or might not lose his cleric levels" but to

He might keep his cleric levels, but giving up the cloak will almost certainly make him an Ex-Cleric 16. Plenty of hitpoints but not much else.

I had two issues with that:
A) I don't (didn't) support your "will almost certainly"
B) *IF* Redcloak looses power, it's a bit unlikely to make him 16-cleric-without-cleric abilities (dark one stops granting levels). Level-loss of like 5 or 10 fixed levels gained through the artefact-cloak seem much more likely.
So much more likely that you changed your position on that as well during the discussion (we are not talking anymoreabout loosing cleric powers but loosing levels).

It might also come down to this: Redcloak is in the same position than us. Even IF he wanted to put down the cloak... he has no idea what would happen and thus he is too afraid of it to even consider. ;)

[Optimystik]

First, he "finally earned the right to wear the white cloak". We don't know if you have to be cleric1 or cleric5 for that (5 sounds a bit high). But I'd assume he was already cleric.

Even if he was, that could still be Cleric 1, Cleric 2 at the most. Certainly not high enough to one-shot a paladin and his mount, and that's assuming both of them were minimum level.


He was enraged. Rage is also a magic plot device. Dark Side of the Force and Stuff. We know that Rich is rooted in the rules but also often goes with the Power of Plot to make an important point.

Rage has (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) limited effect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) on magical strength at best - This is true in both OotS, and in D&D. (unless you happen to be a Wilder.)

His spells getting slightly more punch from being mad, I can buy - but being able to take out not one but two foes far above his CR with one hit each is something else entirely.

His Smite power (from SoD) was an unarmed attack (1d3) plus his cleric level, which was enough to one-shot somebody with at least 10 + 4d10 hp. I heavily doubt he was capable of that before putting on the cloak.


Yeah. Nutty things like letting the guy keep the level. ;) Whatever the plot demands. We still stand at 50/50 (accurdate to the tenth digit after the point) and you still try to convince me my point might be somewhat less probable than yours.

You're keeping score? :smalltongue:
"Whatever the plot demands" is another obvious statement - you don't need to say things we both already know.


Good. Then we only have to argue how many he did gain on his own (does it count LEVELS or XP?). If it counts xp to get the needed levels then Redcloak would probably loose barely one level (16 to 17 when he gained the xp for 3 to 6 or so "back then"). Note this still relies on the cloak taking the xp in the first place.
You can argue "it does not work that way, it's always levels". Which is probably right. But we still had to consider HOW many levels we are talking about. And I also still think the Cloak does not *necessarily* take those levels at all.

I think the Cloak will take whatever it granted. At the very least, if he abandons the Plan and tries to keep wearing it, it will probably bestow negative levels a la Hand of Vecna, Rod of Orcus etc.


Gut feeling? Now that's an awesome citation. ;)

Come now. Right-Eye's revelation was dripping with foreshadowing. After years of life and experience with both sides of The Plan,


Funny that you argue that way, given what we saw from the Dark One (he seemed to be a fair and reasonable guy so far, even when he's evil)...

ACCORDING TO HIM...
(reliable source, no?)


...and given what Rich does with alignment. And given his text on alignment (in "gaming" on this site, a text you probably have read).
"It's an evil god and thus he's unreliable and won't be able to see what that goblin did for him and see why he puts down the cloak"... that's not a point, not with this author.
I'm NOT saying it could not happen that way. It's just something we have to see and that your claim here means nothing until we did.

It's not a claim, it's a prediction. By definition, there's nothing to see yet.


Oh, it is. But this discussion does not start with your saying "Redcloak might or might not lose his cleric levels" but to


I had two issues with that:
A) I don't (didn't) support your "will almost certainly"
B) *IF* Redcloak looses power, it's a bit unlikely to make him 16-cleric-without-cleric abilities (dark one stops granting levels). Level-loss of like 5 or 10 fixed levels gained through the artefact-cloak seem much more likely.
So much more likely that you changed your position on that as well during the discussion (we are not talking anymoreabout loosing cleric powers but loosing levels).

It might also come down to this: Redcloak is in the same position than us. Even IF he wanted to put down the cloak... he has no idea what would happen and thus he is too afraid of it to even consider. ;)

A) Well, that's a hunch, and if I'm stating it too assuredly for your liking then I apologize. I do agree that leaving his levels intact and just taking his powers is as likely an outcome. But for Redcloak to abandon the plan without sanction - I just can't see that.

B) If he becomes an Ex-Cleric, that has nothing to do with his levels - he will still be whatever level he is now (I just said 16 as that is the most likely number at present.) He just won't have spells, turning etc.

[Ancalagon]

I'm talking about Plot. Not D&D.

(shortening the quote-string a bit, I have nothing substantial new to add there)

[quote]You're keeping score? :smalltongue:
"Whatever the plot demands" is another obvious statement - you don't need to say things we both already know.

Of course. What's the point in winning a debate on the net and not being able to proof it with faked statistics? ;)
Well, it seems I have to state that. Especially as Rich has stated he uses that principle (in that acient FAQ).



I think the Cloak will take whatever it granted. At the very least, if he abandons the Plan and tries to keep wearing it, it will probably bestow negative levels a la Hand of Vecna, Rod of Orcus etc.

While that's a reasonable assumption I follow more the other reasonable assumption that this does not have to be.



Come now. Right-Eye's revelation was dripping with foreshadowing. After years of life and experience with both sides of The Plan,

Yes. But it also could be a Red Hering. ;)
Right-Eye seems quite insightful in those things, so it's a support for your reasonable assumption. But still no proof in any way.



A) Well, that's a hunch, and if I'm stating it too assuredly for your liking then I apologize. I do agree that leaving his levels intact and just taking his powers is as likely an outcome. But for Redcloak to abandon the plan without sanction - I just can't see that.

I can see it - depending how he abandons it. BUT, and here comes the interesting point, right now I find it hard to imagine any situation where he abandons the plan without further - massively disturbing - information for him (like he was wrong about the Dark One and that guy really does not care at all or similar). Right now, Lefteye won't abandon the plan but rather go through Hell itself to proof he was right.
No clue what could make him to remove the cloak (it will come in any case, I think). But depending how he does it there are scenarios where the Dark One won't smite him/his levels: For example, if he still is a powerful ally who works FOR the Dark One.


B) If he becomes an Ex-Cleric, that has nothing to do with his levels - he will still be whatever level he is now (I just said 16 as that is the most likely number at present.) He just won't have spells, turning etc.

Yeah, I know. But as I said: there are quite likely (as likely as the other ones) scenarios where that does not happen. Cloak gone, no loss beyond that whatsoever.