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Myou
2010-01-27, 12:54 PM
I'm concerned that the rogue in my gestalt game is going to get overpowered, by level 20 he'll have 20 BAB and be able to make around ten attacks a round with ease, getting sneak attack on all of them (10d6 times ten) plus all the damage that you might expect a fighter or other martial class to do, and it seems like he'll be able to one-shot anything not immune to sneak attack.

But at the same time I know how easy it is to overreact to lots of dice. So, can anyone reassure me that it'll be ok? After all, rogues are meant to be average at best.

Prime32
2010-01-27, 12:55 PM
Can you give use some more info on his build? You've only even mentioned one side of the gestalt.

How accurate are those attacks? If he's using TWF he'll be taking penalties, and the last attack or four probably isn't going to hit anyway.

How is he against enemies who are more than 30ft away? Or when there's nowhere to hide and he doesn't have a flanking partner?

The gestalt build you really have to worry about is rogue//ninja. :smalltongue: (either sudden strike stacks with sneak attack and he's ridiculous, or it doesn't and he's useless)

jokey665
2010-01-27, 01:00 PM
(10d6 times ten) plus all the damage that you might expect a fighter or other martial class to do

That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

Grushvak
2010-01-27, 01:03 PM
That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

You just went and broke the game again. Why must you do this?

jokey665
2010-01-27, 01:04 PM
You just went and broke the game again. Why must you do this?

Because it's fun! :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2010-01-27, 01:04 PM
Well, he's using a homebrewed class based on a rogue that can dimenion door a a wift action (it's powerful but not too bad), and the other side is unarmed swordsage (which I let have full BAB). He is TWFing, most of the time. He can always get flanking, thanks to SS abilities and his homebrewed class.

*Shudders at the rogue//ninja.*

Glimbur
2010-01-27, 01:07 PM
Rogues are so easy to mess up it's not really funny. By level 20 it's completely reasonable for every significant threat to have at least Light Fortification. He also can't sneak attack anyone with miss chance (see Lesser Cloak of Displacement), and without some extra work he can't sneak attack undead or constructs or plants; and oozes and elementals just don't happen.

This makes it easy to control a rogue, if he is too powerful include some of these things. I would advise against making sneak attack useless entirely, he seems to have spent a lot on it so it's unfun if his gimmick never works.

Alternately, the party only fights oozes. Ever.

tl;dr Play as normal, if he's too good include some sneak resistant/immune things but don't overdo it.

Grushvak
2010-01-27, 01:16 PM
Lesser Cloak of Displacement
Armor of Blurring or Greater Blurring (MIC)

Rogues are now obsolete. Feels bad man.

Myou
2010-01-27, 01:17 PM
Rogues are so easy to mess up it's not really funny. By level 20 it's completely reasonable for every significant threat to have at least Light Fortification. He also can't sneak attack anyone with miss chance (see Lesser Cloak of Displacement), and without some extra work he can't sneak attack undead or constructs or plants; and oozes and elementals just don't happen.

This makes it easy to control a rogue, if he is too powerful include some of these things. I would advise against making sneak attack useless entirely, he seems to have spent a lot on it so it's unfun if his gimmick never works.

Alternately, the party only fights oozes. Ever.

tl;dr Play as normal, if he's too good include some sneak resistant/immune things but don't overdo it.

Mmmm, makes sense. But what about foes that won't have those protections? I mean, he'll be one-hitting anything not immune, that's going to make it pretty hard to challenge him without making him ueless.

I'd also feel really mean if I made too many things SA immune - it's pretty much his thing.

jiriku
2010-01-27, 01:45 PM
If you are even remotely concerned about characters being overpowered, choosing to run a gestalt game might have been counterproductive. Likewise, unlimited swift-action dimension door is a very powerful ability.

TWF gets him to 8 attack per round. I assume he's getting to 10 using speed weapons or tiger claw maneuvers? Regardless, most any well-optimized melee character can deal several hundred damage with a full attack by 20th level.

The way you'll challenge him is not by nerfing his attacks, but by testing his defenses. Yes, he has a godly full attack, and can teleport to safety as a swift action, but he can still be shot. He can still fail a save. He can still be mauled by any enemy with pounce. Just ensure that your bad guys hit as hard as the good guys do, and he'll be forced to devote substantial resources to defense and make a well-rounded character.

Myou
2010-01-27, 01:54 PM
If you are even remotely concerned about characters being overpowered, choosing to run a gestalt game might have been counterproductive. Likewise, unlimited swift-action dimension door is a very powerful ability.

TWF gets him to 8 attack per round. I assume he's getting to 10 using speed weapons or tiger claw maneuvers? Regardless, most any well-optimized melee character can deal several hundred damage with a full attack by 20th level.

The way you'll challenge him is not by nerfing his attacks, but by testing his defenses. Yes, he has a godly full attack, and can teleport to safety as a swift action, but he can still be shot. He can still fail a save. He can still be mauled by any enemy with pounce. Just ensure that your bad guys hit as hard as the good guys do, and he'll be forced to devote substantial resources to defense and make a well-rounded character.

Hmmm, that's a good point, yeah.
I guess I should try not to worry too much until he actually does get too strong - if it happens.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-27, 02:09 PM
That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

Umm... How so?

Draz74
2010-01-27, 02:44 PM
Yeah, at Level 20, if a character isn't scary-good at something, he's pretty useless. That goes double in Gestalt.

So this particular character's specialty is lots of damage. So? CR 20 monsters can have lots of Hit Points. And maybe some Damage Reduction or Regeneration. And Tome of Battle maneuvers or Robilar's Gambit feats to help them counterattack when the glass cannon Rogue attacks them.

But if the Rogue does ever start to be a serious problem, I liked the suggestion of critters with Light or Medium Fortification to nerf his Sneak Attack without completely taking it away.

faceroll
2010-01-27, 03:28 PM
Mmmm, makes sense. But what about foes that won't have those protections? I mean, he'll be one-hitting anything not immune, that's going to make it pretty hard to challenge him without making him ueless.

I'd also feel really mean if I made too many things SA immune - it's pretty much his thing.

Is there anyone else in the party? If there are, have mixed encounters. A lich badguy with living cleric followers, for instance.

Lord of Syntax
2010-01-27, 03:32 PM
That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

Can has build plz ktnxbye.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-27, 08:16 PM
Actually, what he's doing is less optimal than many of my straight builds. Heck, I had a non-gestalt build at level 15 that had way more damage output.

If he really wanted to twink out his damage output, he'd grab Craven (arguably +40 damage, since he has 20 class levels in two classes), and do some cherry-picking to increase his sneak attack dice further.

As people pointed out, without some kind of way to bypass Sneak Attack immunity, he's weaksauce in a level 20 game. Also, being able to apply sneak attacks is more difficult than you seem. Sure, with Island of Blades, he can flank anywhere as long as he's got a buddy adjacent. Trouble is... getting someone adjacent. Not always easy.

Also, Barbarians make him cry.

ericgrau
2010-01-27, 08:50 PM
1. Not all 10 of those attacks are at full BAB. More like 3 are, plus 2 at an acceptable -5 penalty. And only on a full attack after you close in. In fact, you'd probably do much more damage with a bow once you get a reliable sneak attack trigger.

2. It's gestalt. Sitting right next to your rogue is a fighter type who can both deal decent damage and cast 9th level spells. I would hope that the encounters would be beefed up to match.

Eldariel
2010-01-27, 09:36 PM
Mmmm, makes sense. But what about foes that won't have those protections? I mean, he'll be one-hitting anything not immune, that's going to make it pretty hard to challenge him without making him ueless.

I'd also feel really mean if I made too many things SA immune - it's pretty much his thing.

1) Give him Penetrating Strike. Means the infinite crit immune opponents (honestly, anyone worth being aware of near 20 is immune to crits; casters gain it through spells, warriors gain it through items and monsters gain it naturally or through wealth) actually don't completely gimp his damage (gives a nice middle-ground between "useless" and "insane").

2) The few things not immune to crits and ones that feasibly shouldn't be (The Tarrasque?) have so much HP that he'll be rolling those 100d6 worth of attacks at it for a while, even if all of them hit on anything but 1. He'll still take more than 3 turns up there.


I wouldn't worry about anything but him being underpowered. Things on 20 have a lot of HP by default. In gestalt, they should have way, way more (from CR buffs and Con-increasing items and so on) along with auxillary defenses (miss chances, crit immunities, X-affecting immunities, contingent effects, regeneration, revivification-capabilities, rerolls, counter-rolls, DR, damage-halvers, defensive immediate actions, etc.) to make the battles last more than 1 round on average.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-01-27, 10:03 PM
How can any character with even one level of rogue have +20 BAB?

Eldariel
2010-01-27, 10:09 PM
How can any character with even one level of rogue have +20 BAB?

Gestalt characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). Also, Divine Power, Tenser's Transformation and homebrew for standard characters, but this is Gestalt and not one of the above.

To answer your question, easily.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-27, 10:10 PM
How can any character with even one level of rogue have +20 BAB?

Gestalt = taking the best of both classes. Other side likely has full BAB

also, I just had an idea about a Glaivelock//Rogue... there's your insane DPS

jokey665
2010-01-27, 10:10 PM
Umm... How so?
Can has build plz ktnxbye.

Rog1/Wiz4/UnseenSeer1/Wiz1/UnseenSeer1/Swordsage1/UnseenSeer8/ArcaneTrickster3 for a total of Rog1/Wiz5/UnseenSeer10/Swordsage1/ArcaneTrickster3.

+8d6 sneak attack at level 20, with an additional +7d6 from persisted hunter's eye. If I get an item to boost my CL by 1 (not that hard at ECL 20) I can get an extra +1d6 from hunter's eye. Two (easy metamagic'd) ocular magic missiles. for 10d4+10 from the missiles, 15d6 on each missile for 150d6 (160d6 with the CL booster) and +200 from craven, 20 on each of the 10 missiles. Assuming CL boost; Min damage of 380, average of 795, max of 1210.

I get sneak attack from grease/greater invis/something to blind them/a few other tricks I have, and I've got true seeing to get past those pesky illusions. I've also got grave strike and golem strike just in case I fight undead or constructs.

The build's actual goal is to just use a sneak attack'd acidic splatter (24d6+20) every round, only bringing out tricks like that if I really need to.

My BAB is down the toilet from all the multiclassing (+10 at 20), but my starting dex is 20, +1 size (whisper gnome), and knowledge devotion help me out big time, so the ranged touch attacks aren't that hard to make.

Eldariel
2010-01-27, 10:26 PM
You do realize SA only applies once on volley attacks, right? And you only get one attack roll for Ocular Magic Missile. Btw, I love using Divine Power in the Unseen Seer-shell, and making oldfashioned full attacks.

You persist Guided Shot, Xstrikes, Hunter's Eye, Sniper's Shot and so on meaning you can SA basically anything from anywhere and you suddenly become quite a frightening archer, especially since you can, if you so choose, fire a volley of Arrow of Bones instead of normal arrows. And none of that, except Persistent Divine Power, requires any trickery; it can all be done on normal slots with just Persistent Spell.

jokey665
2010-01-27, 10:59 PM
You do realize SA only applies once on volley attacks, right? And you only get one attack roll for Ocular Magic Missile.

/shrug, the DM's allowing it.

Myou
2010-01-28, 05:39 AM
Is there anyone else in the party? If there are, have mixed encounters. A lich badguy with living cleric followers, for instance.

Well, he loves to pick up NPCs for some adventures, but the only full time party member is my own character (yes, a DMPC, I've asked him multiple times if he has any problems with it, and he doesn't, besides which, I don't play favourites with my character - so far he's a lot weaker), a wizard who primarily buffs him.

I guess I could be fighting immune casters whle he takes on whatever tank-like monster they summoned, stuff like that.


Actually, what he's doing is less optimal than many of my straight builds. Heck, I had a non-gestalt build at level 15 that had way more damage output.

If he really wanted to twink out his damage output, he'd grab Craven (arguably +40 damage, since he has 20 class levels in two classes), and do some cherry-picking to increase his sneak attack dice further.

As people pointed out, without some kind of way to bypass Sneak Attack immunity, he's weaksauce in a level 20 game. Also, being able to apply sneak attacks is more difficult than you seem. Sure, with Island of Blades, he can flank anywhere as long as he's got a buddy adjacent. Trouble is... getting someone adjacent. Not always easy.

Also, Barbarians make him cry.

He's getting Craven after Adaptive Style. But there's no way it's giving double damage just because we're gestalt. :smallyuk:

If all else fails a single swift action manouvre or a summon from my character will ensure it.

Huh? Barbarians? Why is that?


1. Not all 10 of those attacks are at full BAB. More like 3 are, plus 2 at an acceptable -5 penalty. And only on a full attack after you close in. In fact, you'd probably do much more damage with a bow once you get a reliable sneak attack trigger.

2. It's gestalt. Sitting right next to your rogue is a fighter type who can both deal decent damage and cast 9th level spells. I would hope that the encounters would be beefed up to match.

Mmmm, I guess that as long as I don't let him over-optimise his attack rolls, or I use foes with high AC, then it shouldn't be too devastating.


1) Give him Penetrating Strike. Means the infinite crit immune opponents (honestly, anyone worth being aware of near 20 is immune to crits; casters gain it through spells, warriors gain it through items and monsters gain it naturally or through wealth) actually don't completely gimp his damage (gives a nice middle-ground between "useless" and "insane").

2) The few things not immune to crits and ones that feasibly shouldn't be (The Tarrasque?) have so much HP that he'll be rolling those 100d6 worth of attacks at it for a while, even if all of them hit on anything but 1. He'll still take more than 3 turns up there.


I wouldn't worry about anything but him being underpowered. Things on 20 have a lot of HP by default. In gestalt, they should have way, way more (from CR buffs and Con-increasing items and so on) along with auxillary defenses (miss chances, crit immunities, X-affecting immunities, contingent effects, regeneration, revivification-capabilities, rerolls, counter-rolls, DR, damage-halvers, defensive immediate actions, etc.) to make the battles last more than 1 round on average.

Ohhhh, that's a great idea, yeah, Penetrating Strike. :smallsmile:

I'm feeling less worried now, lots of good points and suggestions. :3

Whatever happens, he won't be underpowered - I woudn't let that happen.

Roc Ness
2010-01-28, 05:58 AM
Gestalt = taking the best of both classes. Other side likely has full BAB

also, I just had an idea about a Glaivelock//Rogue... there's your insane DPS

I'm not an optimiser (gestalt is just easy to optimise), but for insane DPS you could play a halfling with ridiculous Dex, dip into swordsage on the rogue side (apart from stances all you really have is Flashing Sun, the Mongooses and a few boosts, but they are good. Get initiative boosters too, I think they are diamond mind). Now, for your rogue special ability pick up opportunist. For feats, look in CrystalKeep for Greater and Improved Combat Reflexes (+Combat Reflexes). Also, ability focus. For invocations, get repelling blast, eldritch glaive, and if you want synergy get wall of perilous flame or chilling tentacles.

Now you make three attacks per round that knock enemies backwards, preferably into chilling tentacles or wall of perilous flame. If you boost you initiative enough, they are all sneak attacks. You also have 5-9 AoO you can use on anyone who comes back, and you can hit each offender up to three times thanks to improved combat reflexes (unless they fail their save against repelling blast, in which case they are simply knocked back again). If you have a buddy, it's better, evrybody they hit will trigger up to three eldritch blast sneak attacks (unless they get knocked back again). If your buddy is a goliath with knockback, you can hit them up to six times...


I've never talked this much on optimisation before
EDIT: And penetrating strike too

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-01-28, 06:03 AM
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that after using Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) you can't do anything at all until your next round. You cannot Dimension Door as a swift action and then full attack, you cannot even make AoOs after using it. Once you use Dimension Door, your round is over and you're automatically Dazed until your next turn comes. This is an effect of the spell for a reason, and should be enforced.

Riffington
2010-01-28, 06:07 AM
But at the same time I know how easy it is to overreact to lots of dice. So, can anyone reassure me that it'll be ok? After all, rogues are meant to be average at best.

I don't know that anything is "meant" to be more or less than average (other than NPC classes). But anyway:

look at your other characters in the game. If this guy weren't here, figure out what enemies you might put them up against that would be challenging-but-beatable. Now add this guy in. Does he contribute to the challenge, making it "a bit less challenging"? Or does he make it a curbstomp?

Cyclocone
2010-01-28, 06:25 AM
Huh? Barbarians? Why is that?

Improved Uncanny Dodge.

But meh; just get a Ring of Blinking.

RebelRogue
2010-01-28, 06:33 AM
*Shudders at the rogue//ninja.*
Why? If I'm not mistaken, the sudden strike and sneak attack are considered similar enough that you only get one of them ("the best", which would mean the Sneak Attack) at odd levels. Also, isn't there some rule saying that you can generally only get +1d6 precision damage pr. 2 levels in gestalt, or am I making something up?

Myou
2010-01-28, 07:19 AM
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that after using Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) you can't do anything at all until your next round. You cannot Dimension Door as a swift action and then full attack, you cannot even make AoOs after using it. Once you use Dimension Door, your round is over and you're automatically Dazed until your next turn comes. This is an effect of the spell for a reason, and should be enforced.

His version isn't the actual spell, just similar.


I don't know that anything is "meant" to be more or less than average (other than NPC classes). But anyway:

look at your other characters in the game. If this guy weren't here, figure out what enemies you might put them up against that would be challenging-but-beatable. Now add this guy in. Does he contribute to the challenge, making it "a bit less challenging"? Or does he make it a curbstomp?

Heh, if it was just my character then there wouldn't really be many fights we'd win - he does probably 75% of the fighting, especially when there's more than one enemy.


Improved Uncanny Dodge.

But meh; just get a Ring of Blinking.

Ohhh, yeah, I forgot they get that.


Why? If I'm not mistaken, the sudden strike and sneak attack are considered similar enough that you only get one of them ("the best", which would mean the Sneak Attack) at odd levels. Also, isn't there some rule saying that you can generally only get +1d6 precision damage pr. 2 levels in gestalt, or am I making something up?

Sneak Attack and Sudden Strke are different abilities, so I don't see why you wouldn't get both, and I 've heard nothing like that.

Thespianus
2010-01-28, 08:06 AM
Btw, I love using Divine Power in the Unseen Seer-shell, and making oldfashioned full attacks.
Ho..How?

Are you talking about Gestalt? Otherwise, I fail to see how you can cast Divine Power as an Unseen Seer...*puzzled*

(If you know a sweet trick to allow my Unseen Seer to cast Divine Power, I'll give you cookies ;) )

Volkov
2010-01-28, 08:15 AM
That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

Pfft, my fighters can do more damage than that with a pencil.

Eldariel
2010-01-28, 08:51 AM
Ho..How?

Are you talking about Gestalt? Otherwise, I fail to see how you can cast Divine Power as an Unseen Seer...*puzzled*

(If you know a sweet trick to allow my Unseen Seer to cast Divine Power, I'll give you cookies ;) )

Sweet tricks? No, but simple feats. Arcane Disciple is the obvious one; among others, War-domains offers Divine Power (Wis 14, but you can make do with just item-based buffs with 8 Base Wis).

Two levels of Wyrm Wizard [DM] also enables picking one, as do two levels of Recaster [RoE]. Of course, you can't ban Evocation if you want it, and you need Metamagic School Focus (or some of the slightly more broken feats) to persist it without Incantatrix.

Gnaeus
2010-01-28, 09:12 AM
I'm concerned that the rogue in my gestalt game is going to get overpowered, by level 20 he'll have 20 BAB and be able to make around ten attacks a round with ease, getting sneak attack on all of them (10d6 times ten) plus all the damage that you might expect a fighter or other martial class to do, and it seems like he'll be able to one-shot anything not immune to sneak attack.

10d6x10 is 3.5x10x10 is 350 damage if all of his attacks hit, which they won't. A rogue/swordsage is not a bruiser, so he can't go toe to toe with DR 20 monsters for several rounds. If he is the only PC, he needs to do this much damage, or he will just get eaten. If he is the only PC, nerfing his sneak attack will likely result in a TPK, or at least a defeat.

Killer Angel
2010-01-28, 09:20 AM
Pfft, my fighters can do more damage than that with a pencil.

The fighter at the current level of your campaign, or back when he was a puny unexperienced stable boy of 20th lev.? :smalltongue:

Boci
2010-01-28, 09:44 AM
Pfft, my fighters can do more damage than that with a pencil.

Well, doesn't a pencil do 1d2 damage?

2xMachina
2010-01-28, 09:50 AM
Uh, 1d2's can turn to infinite damage.

Myou
2010-01-28, 09:51 AM
Pfft, my fighters can do more damage than that with a pencil.

Mmmmhm, at level ~200 that's a rather shameful boast. :smalltongue:


10d6x10 is 3.5x10x10 is 350 damage if all of his attacks hit, which they won't. A rogue/swordsage is not a bruiser, so he can't go toe to toe with DR 20 monsters for several rounds. If he is the only PC, he needs to do this much damage, or he will just get eaten. If he is the only PC, nerfing his sneak attack will likely result in a TPK, or at least a defeat.

Well that's before craven, or any other feats, or even weapon damage, but I do take your point. :smallsmile:

Gnaeus
2010-01-28, 10:03 AM
Well that's before craven, or any other feats, or even weapon damage, but I do take your point. :smallsmile:

It is also before DR, or % miss chances, or swift action defenses, or even having a 60+ AC (all very doable at CR 20 without a lot of work.)

lisiecki
2010-01-28, 11:57 AM
[QUOTE]Scary DPS from the party rogue

Well my friend I think I can solve that problem ;)



I'm concerned that the rogue in my gestalt game is going to get overpowered, by level 20 he'll have 20 BAB and be able to make around ten attacks a round with ease, getting sneak attack on all of them (10d6 times ten) plus all the damage that you might expect a fighter or other martial class to do, and it seems like he'll be able to one-shot anything not immune to sneak attack.

10d6 you say?
Let him roll one d6, then wait 30 seconds until he can roll the next one.
Then 30 seconds before the next one, and continue.

Let all the other players roll all there dice at once.
BAM
Now his DPS isn't all that impressive, now is it?

Myou
2010-01-28, 12:43 PM
[QUOTE=Myou;7775629]

Well my friend I think I can solve that problem ;)




10d6 you say?
Let him roll one d6, then wait 30 seconds until he can roll the next one.
Then 30 seconds before the next one, and continue.

Let all the other players roll all there dice at once.
BAM
Now his DPS isn't all that impressive, now is it?

Actaully, it would still be the highest. :smalltongue:

jiriku
2010-01-28, 01:46 PM
If he's the only player you have, then really this is all a non-issue. He's not going to overshadow anybody, so who cares if he deals 10 damage or 10,000? Just build stuff he'll enjoy defeating and you're gtg.

Gorbash
2010-01-28, 03:45 PM
/shrug, the DM's allowing it.

This kinda ruins the point of your first post, since it's not by RAW or RAI.

Akal Saris
2010-01-29, 12:59 AM
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the full BAB swordsage side of the character than the SA =P

Myou
2010-01-29, 03:55 AM
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the full BAB swordsage side of the character than the SA =P

Then you obviously don't know anything abou the Tome of Battle. :smallamused:


If he's the only player you have, then really this is all a non-issue. He's not going to overshadow anybody, so who cares if he deals 10 damage or 10,000? Just build stuff he'll enjoy defeating and you're gtg.

Because he likes to work with NPCs and the like, and because it's a lot of effort rebalancing HP for every creature, and would then make him unable to win without sneak attack, if the enemy found a way to prevent it.

Draz74
2010-01-29, 03:59 AM
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the full BAB swordsage side of the character than the SA =P

Agreed. Swordsage didn't need the help.

Not that I'd be very worried, still. But more worried than about the Sneak Attack.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-29, 04:22 AM
Let's look at it this way (in gestalt, level 20).

It's possible to:
*Make a character immune to damage.
*Make a character with DC 70 SoD's.
*Make a character that can throw the planet at the sun.

Compare your damage to the above.

2xMachina
2010-01-29, 08:51 AM
[QUOTE=lisiecki;7781602]

Actaully, it would still be the highest. :smalltongue:

Actually, DPS is Damage per second, so it's low.

I'm not even sure why we're using DPS here... This is not WoW. DPTurn is more accurate.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-29, 10:00 AM
Also, Barbarians make him cry.

Huh? Barbarians? Why is that?People mentioned Uncanny Dodge, but part of the reason is that they can also do considerably more damage on a regular charge attack than a piddly 100d6.

So can plain vanilla psychic warriors, for that matter.

A barbarian (especially with lion totem) can deal huge amounts of damage on a single charge, using Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.

The psychic warrior can triple-wield collision/suppression lances (using a dancing lance) using Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, and expansion and psionic lion's charge (riding his flying hydralized psicrystal, via metamorphosis and/or a skin of proteus) to deal lots and lots of damage while shutting down buffs with a dispel on every hit. Other powers such as strength of my enemy simultaneously do horrific debuffs (while making the psychic warrior even stronger). Bonus points if he has boots of speed, for haste.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-29, 10:05 AM
High amounts of damage due to reliance on iteratives, frankly, kinda sucks.

Mostly, the later iteratives are rather unlikely to hit, especially against high AC opponents.

You still need to worry about movement screwing over your damage, and expend resources to mitigate this, and care about AoOs, flight, ironguard, and all the other various ways of avoiding weapon damage.

Not really a big deal at all.