Classless game systems

[Coidzor]

So one of my friends and I have been discussing a world-idea where there's not so much classes as, well, a certain amount of points at character generation that go to determining one's abilities rather than having class features and the like.

So far I've only had mutants and masterminds (I think) and GURPS come up as things to look at to possibly use as either a base or just to play it in.


We're also a bit curious about alternatives to the sort of schools of magic present in DnD 3.5, where the types of spells are schools unto themselves (like say, defensive and offensive self-only buffs, healing (and group-buffs), and direct-damage blasting being different schools{or another, better term to mechanically separate them[mmm, mechanically separated spell components]}) rather than having such spells being divvied up between places. Basically their placement following their function, yah.

Edit: Explication: So the rough idea is a game where everyone's at least partially magic-based, and some idea of ways of breaking up magic into chunks other than say, divine vs. arcane or 8 schools which have some muddled overlapping.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

FATAL certainly lacks class.

[Hida Reju]

Well you have named 2 of the main ones with Gurps and M&M.

Another couple you can use if you can find a copy is Aberrant or Adventure D10 system from White Wolf. Both used a point system for character creation and are not world of dorkness.

Another system that some people (read few) like is the Amber Diceless system that is pure point based.

For a comedy system "Tales from the Floating Vagabond" was point based I believe but I can not remember completely.

And if you are prepared you could try Guardians of Order and its BESM system.

[root9125]

Well, shadowrun. And if you happen to be hosting in the cleveland area... :smallwink::smallwink:

[Raiki]

Don't mind Pharoah...he's just completely incapable of taking anything seriously...and he enjoys luring people into visiting the Admiral.

Anyway, I would highly recommend GURPS. While character creation can certainly be a bit intense the first time or two, it's well worth the effort. You know how you can do ANYTHING in 3.5 if you try hard enough? GURPS took this idea and fed it a diet of steroids and crack. You can make a character that does Literally. Any. Thing.

To name a few that I've made/seen:
The flying southern gentleman who calculated advanced geometry and physics in his head to ricochet bullets from his "revolvers of never-ending smite-dom" around corners and through villians' eyes. (Modern Supers game)

The 9 year old Absinth addicted speeder girl who could head-butt someone fast enough to make them explode...and had a severe eating disorder. (Victorian Age Supers game).

The psychic sentient anaconda who ran his own circus and could warp the entire thing from one dimension to another. (Shockingly enough...in a Reality Warping Side-Show game)

Also, a few friends and I have statted out quite a few pop icons, from most of the X-Men, to the greek Titans, to Al Gore (don't ask why, I don't remember).

Anyway, I give a solid +1 to GURPS. Any game you want to play, it can handle.

/Long Post.

~R~

[RandomLunatic]

Serenity, Battlestar Galactica, Dark Heresy, and Rogue Trader can all be added to the list.

[Kallisti]

Don't mind Pharoah...he's just completely incapable of taking anything seriously...

Lies. FATAL seriously lacks class.

[Raum]

So one of my friends and I have been discussing a world-idea where there's not so much classes as, well, a certain amount of points at character generation that go to determining one's abilities rather than having class features and the like.

So far I've only had mutants and masterminds (I think) and GURPS come up as things to look at to possibly use as either a base or just to play it in.Assuming you're asking for more systems...
Skill / Ability based systems: ORE (See Wild Talents for an example.)
Savage Worlds
FATE
Wushu
Risus
Over the EdgeArchetype (loose classing) based systems: Unisystem
Shadowrun
True 20 Career / Life path systems: WFRP
Traveller...just a few of many.


We're also a bit curious about alternatives to the sort of schools of magic present in DnD 3.5, where the types of spells are schools unto themselves (like say, defensive and offensive self-only buffs, healing (and group-buffs), and direct-damage blasting being different schools{or another, better term to mechanically separate them[mmm, mechanically separated spell components]}) rather than having such spells being divvied up between places. Basically their placement following their function, yah.You might look at Ars Magica. But I'm not really clear on what you're asking...are you wanting a magic system to use in d20 or examples of systems with differing methods of representing magic?

[Coidzor]

Visiting the Admiral? I'm not quite sure what that means, and I'm slightly disturbed by it.

I know about FATAL and Pharoh's Fistbeard Beardfisting exploits.

[Kaun]

Serenity, Battlestar Galactica, Dark Heresy, and Rogue Trader can all be added to the list.

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are both class based games.

[Swordgleam]

tri-stat dX is a fun point-buy system. The company making it went under, but you should still be able to find the core rules .pdf for free online somewhere.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Visiting the Admiral? I'm not quite sure what that means, and I'm slightly disturbed by it.

To wit: http://teenormous.com/images/t-shirts/faroutshirts.com/images-ItsATrap-Preview.png?1234490931

[drengnikrafe]

Upon reading the title of this, my first thought was "Hey, didn't Final Fantasy II (the one with... umm... Fyron and The Emperor, I think) do this?" It was something like that anyway. Granted, it's not a game system, but it could be used as a point of reference.

[Tinydwarfman]

Edit: Explication: So the rough idea is a game where everyone's at least partially magic-based, and some idea of ways of breaking up magic into chunks other than say, divine vs. arcane or 8 schools which have some muddled overlapping.

Use GURPS standard, syntactic, symbol, ritual, threshold, investment and power based systems in the same game and have them each as competing against each other as rival guilds/schools of magic.

(syntactic = word/noun magic that is very open ended;
symbol = syntactic but must draw symbol or used carved tokens;
ritual/technique = most magic is completed through lengthy rituals and have subtle but powerful effects, in combat is harder;
Clerical investment = divine magic;
threshold = variant way of spending energy, no change in actual spells;
power based = magic bought as power advantages, not very versatile after creation, but can be quite powerful)

Or just pick one them:smallbiggrin:

[T.G. Oskar]

Another couple you can use if you can find a copy is Aberrant or Adventure D10 system from White Wolf. Both used a point system for character creation and are not world of dorkness.

Trinity Universe, you mean?

Recall that both Adventure! (no kidding, it has the exclamation point), Aberrant and Trinity are essentially the same world in different timelines. All are meant to represent different things (pulp fiction for Adventure!, science fiction for Trinity, and...either Heroes or The 4400 for Aberrant: the devs explicitly say that Aberrant is not a superhero game in the sense of Golden Age/Silver Age superheroism), and all are meant to spearhead various "powers": superpowers on Aberrant, psionics on Trinity, and plain luck on Adventure, though versions of superpowers exist on the latter one and proto-psionics exist on Aberrant as well, while super-powered beings are the evil guys on Trinity.

It's important to mention the bind between the three, since they are basically interdependent: you can make an epic campaign with all three games' lore, or play it independently and do it right. In fact, just Aberrant has several playing styles (the superheroes, the monsters, the gladiators/wrestlers-with-superpowers, the outcasts...) within the same book, so you can play very different games.

Also, it depends on whether you can stomach the Storyteller's System without bias from WoD. It uses a very similar mechanic (much as how d20 Modern and D&D use a same mechanic; aka, it uses the same game mechanics but not the same character creation standards). As a rule of thumb, if you don't like the most recent edition of Shadowrun, Trinity Universe may not be the right choice.

Also, another vote for Shadowrun (any edition); it's the premise that's interesting, period. It has archetypes (Mage, Decker/Hacker, Rigger, Adept, Mystic Adept, Technomancer, Street Samurai) but you don't have to follow exactly those archetypes. They are just common archetypes you may see while playing, but you don't have to follow them like classes do (except perhaps those that follow Magic or Resonance, which makes about half the characters, but then again you don't need a "class" for it, just the quality/Attribute/Advantage/whatchamacallit). Each has a different method of playing, though, which...can be confusing for whomever does the GMing.

[rezplz]

The only class-less system that I've played is RuneQuest. As far as I could tell, it seemed to be focused around playing normal dudes with normal jobs that could be turned into heroes (or villians, I suppose.) I didn't play it for very long but I think the magic system was a little unbalanced. (The best way to be a magic user was to be a shaman with a really good POW score. They kinda functioned like sorcerers with power points. Divine magic had only one-use spells that you had to re-learn after using them. Sorcery treated magic spells like skills, and you had to level up each spell in order to cast it with any reliability) It was definitely an interesting take on the magic system, though. Magic in general wasn't overpowered either, and everybody had at least a little bit. At least in the version that I played, anywho. I didn't really like the newest version of it.

Oh, and you could play a duck. Walking ducks that were just a little bigger than halflings. It was awesome.

Don't really know how it compares to other class-less gaming systems though.

[Knaight]

Assuming you're asking for more systems...
Skill / Ability based systems: ORE (See Wild Talents for an example.)
Savage Worlds
FATE
Wushu
Risus
Over the EdgeArchetype (loose classing) based systems: Unisystem
Shadowrun
True 20 Career / Life path systems: WFRP
Traveller...just a few of many.

You might look at Ars Magica. But I'm not really clear on what you're asking...are you wanting a magic system to use in d20 or examples of systems with differing methods of representing magic?

Adding Fudge to the Skill based, Barbarians of Lemuria to archetype based.

On magic, one of my preferred methods is the 4 by 5 method in Fudge. Basically, there are X noun magic skills, and Y verb magic skills, and each spell is a YX format. For instance:
Nouns: Energy, Matter, Life, Mind
Verbs: Create, Destroy, Transmute, Transport

If you have the Create and Energy skills, you can cast Create energy. Lower of the 2 skills used to roll with. Those particular examples are really, really powerful. It also allows specialization. For instance, with 3 skills you can have Create, Energy, and Matter. Which gives you 2 spells, Create Energy, and Create Matter. You could also just take Create Energy and Create matter as skills, which is cheaper, but if you later learn, say Destroy and Life, suddenly the individual skills thing is expensive, which balances on its own. The individual "spells" can be defined as much as desired. http://www.panix.com/~sos/rpg/4by5.html is the link.

[frogspawner]

So one of my friends and I have been discussing a world-idea where there's not so much classes as, well, a certain amount of points at character generation that go to determining one's abilities rather than having class features and the like. ... So the rough idea is a game where everyone's at least partially magic-based, and some idea of ways of breaking up magic into chunks other than say, divine vs. arcane or 8 schools which have some muddled overlapping.

Basic RolePlaying is what you're looking for: the original and best skill-based RPG.

The very popular Call of Cthulhu is the Horror-oriented sub-set of BRP.
But BRP does Fantasy superbly too, and has a variety of magic systems, which you can pick-and-choose between to get just the feel you want. (In it's incarnation as RuneQuest, it made famous the fantasy world of Glorantha - yes, the one with the Ducks, mentioned above. But it's not true to call the characters from there 'ordinary dudes' - far from it!). It's tried-and-trusted system, been going as long as D&D, and was it's main rival back in the day (only losing out due to corporate mishandling, imho).

A new version of RuneQuest has come out this very week, from MOngoose publishing. And is much improved over their 1st edition, I hear.

Give BRP and/or RQ a try, you won't regret it. (My sig has the BRP QuickStart - that version doesn't include any magic, but will show you the system and the points-build. And has 7 mini-adventures!)

[Dimers]

To add to what others have said about Shadowrun: it doesn't enforce classes, but a couple team roles appear to be fairly self-establishing in a way that makes them similar to classes. Other roles are far more open. There are dozens of ways to help out in combats, but only two ways to hack computers -- and if you're a hacker, you won't be able to do a whole lot else; there just aren't enough build points for each character to cover all the bases themselves.

Shadowrun's magic system (at least as of 4th ed, the current version) sounds not entirely unlike what you're looking for. The seven magic types are Combat, Detection, Healing, Illusion, Manipulation, spirit work, and self-improvement. Some of those are means and some are ends.

[Satyr]

Another really fun classless game are the different Unisystem games, like All Flesh Must Be Eaten, or Witchcraft (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1&filters=0_0_40050_0) (free download of the core book makes Witchcraft the game with the best price / quality ration known to mankind), which focuses quite heavily on supernatural powers. The predecessor of Witchcraft, Armageddon is a kitchen sink of awesomeness game, and very fun (it basically consists of Call of Cthulhu without the hyperbole, Command and Conquer, the legions of heaven and hell united against a common enemy, spellcasters in any occlt tradition, demigods and avatars of old religions... it's the "an angel, a devil, Thor and Merlin unite to kick Yog-Sototh's behind" game).
It is also mechanically very well made, using the old Fuzion style roll and add mechanism (which is also used by D&D nowadays), and the rules for magic are a bit complex, but very fun.

The other game that I can truly recommend and which wasn't mentioned in this thread before is Unknown Armies. It's a bit hard to describe, but UA is the game with the one of the best magic systems around (magic comes from paradox. Find a nice paradox, snap out of the world as you know it, and become a spellcaster) and it is one the few games that allows players to go for the big targets - like becoming a god. It also don't bother with traditional magic (it's in there, it's just not very popular) and has nice new magic schools - some of them a bit weird, like TV-based divination, others a bit creepy like Epidomancy, the cutter's magic (getting satisfaction from hurting yourself is a pretty good paradoxon) or just plain awesome (modern alchemists deal in chemical drugs). On the other hand you have the avatars, people who try to become one of the great conceptual roles in the public subconsciousness (like the Demagogue, the Messenger, or the True King) and can channel their role's powers over time.
The interesting thing about Unknown Armies is, that magic while it is featured heavily in the game is not the universal solution for everything. While you can do very cool stuff with your magic, it doesn't keep you from thinking for yourself. And combats are really, really painful.

Otherwise, Gurps is usually a good choice. As a rule of thumb, you can replace 80 - 90% of all game systems with Gurps and significantly improve your game.

What kind of genre are you interested in?

[Dairun Cates]

Let's see. Off the top of my head, ones that haven't already been mentioned...

BESM (2nd or 3rd edition and the 1 million variation books)
Hero
Fuzion
Risus
Burning Empires
Burning Wheel
Hong Kong Action Theatre
Paranoia
Teenagers from Outer Space
DC Heroes
Marvel Heroes
Amber Diceless
OAV
Everyone is John
Most things under storyteller and white wolf are archetypal, but not class-based and a few have nothing like that at all (I think 7th Sea is under the storyteller system)

and I THINK Toon is classless.

There's a lot more, but those are the ones off my head.

Oh, and I suppose you could help me beta-test the Pirates vs. Ninjas system I'm developing and beta-testing as we speak, but despite being classless, it really only works best if you actually like being a pirate/ninja/other kind of bad arse.

MOST of those are at least decent, but it really depends on what you want to do and what everyone wants to run. Figure out the setting first. It'll narrow things down.

Edit: Ah. Didn't completely read apparently. You do have an idea then. I'd recommend Burning Wheel among those (although, Risus works for just about anything). It's typical fantasy, completely classless and actually has a magic system. On top of all of that, the system actually rewards non-combat actions as equally as combat actions. If you pick a lot of locks, you will get good at lock-picking. If you swing a lot of swords, you will get good at swordplay.

[Edmund]

There's always WEG's D6 Fantasy.

[Partysan]

I know about FATAL and Pharoh's Fistbeard Bearfisting exploits.

You might want to consider adding a "d". Spares a lot of brain bleach.

[JaronK]

I'll second Shadowrun as a good system for this. It has an almost classless system (you could say cyber characters, adepts, and mages are the classes, but they're so broad that it hardly fits), and magic that can specialize like that.

JaronK

[frogspawner]

I'll second Shadowrun...
But ShadowRun is cyberpunk - not really suited to the magic-oriented world Coidzor seems to want.

[JaronK]

I wasn't sure from the OP. Shadowrun is magical cyberpunk, so if he just wants magic without classes it works. If he wants high fantasy, then you're absolutely right and it's not appropriate. I just love that game (at least, I love 3rd edition).

JaronK

[TheCountAlucard]

No love for Exalted?

[frogspawner]

I wasn't sure from the OP. Shadowrun is magical cyberpunk, so if he just wants magic without classes it works. If he wants high fantasy, then you're absolutely right and it's not appropriate. I just love that game (at least, I love 3rd edition).
Maybe they should try it anyway. (How is it for point-building characters, btw?) If nothing else, it'd give an alternative take on magic - and help firm-up ideas of what their group wants out of a game-system. Or they may love it too, and wave straight Sword-and-Sorcery bye-bye...

[Coidzor]

Give BRP and/or RQ a try, you won't regret it. (My sig has the BRP QuickStart - that version doesn't include any magic, but will show you the system and the points-build. And has 7 mini-adventures!)

Sounds interesting. Though the link in your signature is broken and just redirects to the main site.


You might want to consider adding a "d". Spares a lot of brain bleach.

...I'm-a go do that now... :smalleek:

...Though I imagine a fighting style known as bear fist wouldn't be too out of place with him...


Shadowrun's magic system (at least as of 4th ed, the current version) sounds not entirely unlike what you're looking for. The seven magic types are Combat, Detection, Healing, Illusion, Manipulation, spirit work, and self-improvement. Some of those are means and some are ends.

This definitely does seem quite close to the sort of breakdown we were discussing.

[JaronK]

Maybe they should try it anyway. (How is it for point-building characters, btw?)

Note that I only know 3rd edition, but it's fine with the point buy system. It's sort of classed in that you have to chose to have magic in creation... if you don't, you'll never get it. But that's where classes end. It's also very easy to optimize exactly to the point where the designers want you to be at... 6s in your primary role skills and abilities, and in your primary stats, and then have fun from there. It's also shockingly balanced. It's one of few games I know of where being magical does not make you more or less powerful, it's just one potential means to an end. In the long term after lots of play mages get overpowered, but that's WAY down the line unless you had out karma like candy.

JaronK

[frogspawner]

Sounds interesting. Though the link in your signature is broken and just redirects to the main site.
Thanks for telling me. 'Tis fixed now! (Excuse: Site's currently being upgraded).

[Totally Guy]

Edit: Ah. Didn't completely read apparently. You do have an idea then. I'd recommend Burning Wheel among those (although, Risus works for just about anything). It's typical fantasy, completely classless and actually has a magic system. On top of all of that, the system actually rewards non-combat actions as equally as combat actions. If you pick a lot of locks, you will get good at lock-picking. If you swing a lot of swords, you will get good at swordplay.

Seconded.

I'm getting psyched about my groups next session.

But magic system, singular? Yeah, they're all under the standard mechanic unbrella but Human Sorcery and Faith are mechanically different, as is Elven songs, Orc rituals and Dwarven runecasting. Plus the 6 magic systems in the Magic Burner book.

It's classless but that doesn't mean straight point buy. It's a lifepath system which I reckon is the best fluff/crunch balanced option. Both my brothers love the character creation system, and one just likes to kill stuff optimally and the other gets all hippy about the path he's walked.

It does require a lot of effort to get a good grip on the rules though as they are quite heavy. I say heavier than D&D but my group say it's about the same.

[Coidzor]

This is kind of embarrassing, but what do you guys mean when you mention lifepaths? I've seen them mentioned in passing for a number of game systems even before they cropped up in this thread, but I don't think I've ever heard any explanation of what the term actually means...

[RebelRogue]

This is kind of embarrassing, but what do you guys mean when you mention lifepaths? I've seen them mentioned in passing for a number of game systems even before they cropped up in this thread, but I don't think I've ever heard any explanation of what the term actually means...
In some systems, you trace out the characters career. He may spend some time in school, followed by some years in the army after which he retires a as a private investigator. That sort of thing. For each period, skills will be assigned. That's the idea.

Anyway, another vote for Basic RolePlaying here. I've used it to model original ideas pretty quickly before. Once you've got a grasp of it, you can twist it to your needs rather easily.

[Satyr]

This is kind of embarrassing, but what do you guys mean when you mention lifepaths? I've seen them mentioned in passing for a number of game systems even before they cropped up in this thread, but I don't think I've ever heard any explanation of what the term actually means...

Lifepath character creation is based on the idea, that you create a character as a product out of its environment, and only partially out of your direct wishes.
Usually, you pick your character's development through certain stages (Parent's occupation, childhood, social background etc. up to different occupations). In many cases, you don't build a character per se, you build a character's biography and conclude the char's stats and skills out of this.

So, for example, a character who was born in a small village, whose parents were dirt farmers and who run away from home to join the brigands in the forest might will have a very different set of skills than a castle-born character who squired for a famous knight and joined the temple as a paladin (for example).

There are basically two different versions of life path systems: Those based on free picks, and those based on dice rolls. A free pick system doesn't differ that much from a point-buy system (only the meanings to gather the points change) while a random lifepath system is very similar to the usual old school dice based character creation, but tend to create a tad more balanced characters in the end (because characters are only modified, not determined by the random events). Thus, a good lifepath system might be a best of both worlds approach.

The drawback of lifepath systems is that they can take very long to create a character, because you actually develop the whole vita of your role, not only his or her stats, and that there are usually only so many events that can happen and which sometimes make the originially arbitrary character creation system a bit repetitive.

If I remember correctly, Burning Wheels uses a pick-based life path systems, while the various R. Talsonian games (e.g. Cyberpunk 20XX) uses a random one, as does Traveller (which infamously included the possibility that your character died during the character creation and you had to start over again). A good combination of both can be found in the underappriciated Artesia -The Known World RPG (which suffers a bit from the overall convoluted structure).

[Tengu_temp]

Another system that doesn't use classes is Fading Suns. Really thought, do we want to make a list of all classless systems? It will be quite long - when it comes to games that came out in XXI century, it's faster to list all systems that actually do use classes.


No love for Exalted?

The storyteller system was already mentioned.


Upon reading the title of this, my first thought was "Hey, didn't Final Fantasy II (the one with... umm... Fyron and The Emperor, I think) do this?" It was something like that anyway. Granted, it's not a game system, but it could be used as a point of reference.

Final Fantasy 2 shouldn't be used as a point of reference for anything. It was a failed experiment of a game.

[Totally Guy]

This is kind of embarrassing, but what do you guys mean when you mention lifepaths? I've seen them mentioned in passing for a number of game systems even before they cropped up in this thread, but I don't think I've ever heard any explanation of what the term actually means...

I see an answer so here's an example:

My Burning Wheel group:
The Party Wizard, Bob Sporrington
LP1: Born Gifted in the village,
...seeing his talent he was picked up by a wizard...
LP2: Wizards Apprentice,
...eventually he was able to go on his own...
LP3: Hedge Wizard
...then he came to the City of Art Cackles to start a trade and find his father that had given him away...
LP4: Tinkerer

The Guard Captain, Jonas Thafray
LP1: City Born
...at a young age he became a guard...
LP2: City Guard
...being fairly tough he became a...
LP3: Lieutenant at Arms
...his disrespect for authority bit him in an ironic way when he ended up...
LP4: Guard Captain
...but really this was his secret ambition to one-up his pompous older brother who was also in the guard.

Idealistic Guard, Harris MacNamara
LP1: Village Born
...conscripted into the local guard...
LP2: Village Guard
...but left to seek his fortune in Art Cackles...
LP3: Student
...joined the city guard to support his devoted childhood sweetheart who moved to the city...
LP4: Lieutenant at Arms

I remember all the character's histories, relationships and motivations due to them having a mechanical effect on the game.

Edit: It's possible to lose a hand, an eye or maybe a limb during character creation. But only if you're an orc. That's a dysfunctional society at work.

[RebelRogue]

Final Fantasy 2 shouldn't be used as a point of reference for anything. It was a failed experiment of a game.
Even though I liked the game to a degree, as a progression mechanic it didn't work well for a video game. Having said that, Basic Roleplaying system for increasing skills works in essentially the same way. However, it will probably be less ridiculous in real play with a GM.

[OverdrivePrime]

Shadowrun is my favorite classless system, and is pretty easy to tweak out for a low-tech fantasy setting.

Also very good in my view: the Storyteller system (particularly if you take the old WoD Hunter's Hunted rules for regular ol' mortals).

And my favorite game of all time: Immortal. 1st edition and 3rd edition are great. Avoid 2nd edition like Twilight. You can pick up the core books for Immortal 3rd edition free (http://www.invisiblewar.com/) at their (horrible) website. Immortal encourages playing characters based on your real-life self, and while I think this is awesome, you can certainly play just about any character you want. The magic system is very unique, imaginative and fun.

[Totally Guy]

I was watching my brother play Oblivion.

"Why do you keep jumping off cliffs? Is that the fastest way to the city?"
"Yeah, plus, I train jumping, healing and endurance all at the same time."
"Ok..."

Well my suspension of disbelief is unwilling.

[frogspawner]

...Basic Roleplaying system for increasing skills works in essentially the same way. However, it will probably be less ridiculous in real play with a GM.
Absolutely. Far less ridiculous than killing orcs making you better at climbing walls, for instance. :smallwink:

But it's not just BRP - people hereabouts also like other systems built on similarly realistic skill progression...

[Burning Wheel] ... On top of all of that, the system actually rewards non-combat actions as equally as combat actions. If you pick a lot of locks, you will get good at lock-picking. If you swing a lot of swords, you will get good at swordplay.
Seconded.

[Tyndmyr]

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are both class based games.

I'm pretty sure Serenity is too.

[Gnaeus]

The world of darkness games are classless and have a wide range of different takes on magic. Mage divides it up into different spheres based on the area you want to alter (forces-energy, correspondence-space, time, mind, life, matter, fate-luck, etc.) Vampires and sorcerers use static, ritualist powers based on paths. Werewolves get powers as gifts from spirits. Changelings have their own powers based on effect + thing to be acted on. Mummy powers work differently, etc...

[lesser_minion]

I'd second Ars Magica, despite the weird distribution. Try to get 5th edition if you can - 4th edition is free, but rather flawed. Earlier editions are a waste of time.

The magic system is pretty simple, and you get a fairly detailed selection of possible effects, all of which are pretty well defined even before you actually write the spell.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Besm d20 can be classless.

White wolf is classless..

Highly recomend white wolf... its alot of fun.

[Umael]

Champions/Hero System is classless.

Just don't be afraid of math.

[Kaun]

I'm pretty sure Serenity is too.

Yeah i had a feeling about it but i have only ever skimmed over the books and that was a while ago.

Another classless + life path one is Mutant chronicels. Fun game with a cool world if your into low tech sci fi.

Its the RPG that was around befor the table top war game Warzone came out.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'd second Ars Magica, despite the weird distribution. Try to get 5th edition if you can - 4th edition is free, but rather flawed. Earlier editions are a waste of time.

The magic system is pretty simple, and you get a fairly detailed selection of possible effects, all of which are pretty well defined even before you actually write the spell.
If you would like to play Ars Magica in modern times, try Mage: The Ascension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mage:_The_Ascension). They have similar, but legally distinct magic systems and everyone is some kind of magic user.

Plus they have the Sons of Ether :smalltongue:

[Totally Guy]

I'm pretty sure Serenity is not class based. I was the pilot and professional gambler. But I remember spending loads of points to advance my gun skill up from nothing.

[Thatguyoverther]

Hero System is the classiest classless game around. Point buy with infinite customizability.

[Dimers]

Maybe they should try it anyway. (How is it for point-building characters, btw?) If nothing else, it'd give an alternative take on magic - and help firm-up ideas of what their group wants out of a game-system. Or they may love it too, and wave straight Sword-and-Sorcery bye-bye...

I'd give 4th-ed Shadowrun a "B" for point-build. There are two ways to get notably overpowered easily (spending all the BP you can on money to buy cyberware and state-of-the-art tools, and spending all the BP you can on spellcasting), but there's no way to get ridiculously overpowered at the start of the game. And if you don't abuse one of those methods, you're still almost certain to end up with a build that can contribute something important to a team.

The spell system for Shadowrun can easily be adapted to non-cyberpunk settings. Mages get a bit stronger, because one limitation is that it's harder to affect tech than living things. The big problem you'd encounter when trying to make Shadowrun into a fantasy game, though, would be items. Equipment is a major factor in many builds, and what fighter doesn't want a magic sword? You'd have to carefully balance Build Point expenditure against the effectiveness of the items you get from those BPs.

[TheOOB]

(I think 7th Sea is under the storyteller system)

7th Sea is it's own system, based heavily on the Legend of the Five Rings system also made by the Alderac Entertainment Group. I only mention this because It's my favorite system, and it really doesn't resemble the storyteller system at all save that it uses 10-sided dice. The storyteller system is good however, just different.

Anyways, systems like 7th Sea, Exalted, and Shadowrun are technically class based systems, but they do follow kind of a mid range. While in all of them there is a lot of freedom in character creation, there are some key decisions that will partially determine how your character will be built. Purchasing a swordsman school or a sorcery in 7th sea costs a significant portion of your starting hero points and determines what special abilities you will be able to learn(swordsman schools are prohibitively expensive during play, and you can't gain sorcery during play).

In shadowrun certain decisions greatly affects your character. Being awakened(or a technomancer) completely changes what your character can do, and other roles(such as hacker) cost so many built points to be good at that if you choose the role many of your choices are made for you. Exalted is much the same way, your exalt caste helps determine what you are good at. A Dawn caste Solar will always be a strong warrior, and a Night caste will always be a sneaky bastard. The big difference between these and class based systems is that you are free to choose your secondary and tertiary skills and abilities, and how and what order you advance your character is up to you. Two 7th sea Porte sorcerers may have the same magic, but one might be good with knives and stealth, and the other firearms and social encounters, even in the confines of your role there is freedom, unlike D&D where your choices mostly resolve around such things as "Do i want to blast them with lightning or fire?"

[Dairun Cates]

7th Sea is it's own system, based heavily on the Legend of the Five Rings system also made by the Alderac Entertainment Group. I only mention this because It's my favorite system, and it really doesn't resemble the storyteller system at all save that it uses 10-sided dice. The storyteller system is good however, just different.

Ah. I own the 2nd Edition book, but it's literally been 3 years since I've read through it and never ran it. So, my mistake there. I'm mixing it up with a different but similar system I've thumbed through.

Also, for the Exalted thing, I didn't really SPECIFICALLY mention it from storyteller because the Castes are pretty similar to classes without actually being classes (let's just face it. Your solar CAN learn a bunch of Larceny and Social charms, but it's not very effective most of the time, and the system is built for your caste of choice to twink the ever living hell out of whatever its designed to do). Tried to avoid systems with Archetypes as well. If we're allowing Archetypes, I've got a LOT more.

Also, Exalted, in my opinion, is incredibly poor at mimicking anything other than Exalted. That's not to say that Exalted isn't a fun system and setting, but you shouldn't really play it unless you specifically want to play Exalted. So, if you didn't start out wanting to play Exalted, it's probably not what you're looking for.

On another side note, it's one of those systems that can just be a pain to GM. The system's main book encourages characters to be incredibly dysfunctional characters (there's a difference between being flawed and being a sociopath) and if you get one person in your group who REALLY likes to power game, the rest of the group might as well sit aside or wait for the GM to send an encounter specifically to nullify that character, because otherwise, the guy's going to need to have so much soak that everyone else just gets to dink him. Sure. If you're a veteran GM, it's nothing you haven't dealt with before, but it's just one big nightmare for inexperienced GM's.

But yeah. People essentially explained the Lifepaths. They're a rather fun way of running things. And yes, the magic systems are completely separate from each other, but Burning Wheel DOES cover the magic you want and simplifies it down pretty nicely.

[Steveotep]

I've just got Oriental Adventures from WotC, which is Legend of the Five Rings background and d20 system.

At the height of the D&D boom, many companies did a d20 version of the above settings: 7th Sea, Big Eyes Small Mouth, Fading Suns, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, Trinity, Deadlands and many more. Make sure you pick up the right one.

The d20 versions are useful if you want to play a new game without having to learn a whole new system, but most of them are class based.

[thirdkingdom]

Not to toot my own horn, but the system I've been working on seems to fit the bill fairly well. While I am currently editing the 2nd draft, a .pdf of the most recent draft (undergoing editing) can be downloaded for free at www.thirdkingdomgame.com. It has point-buy classless creation, mixture of Talents and skills to customize abilities, all characters have some magic energy and there are a lot of Talents that allow the use of magic to one degree or another. Its fairly crunchy but mechanically pretty simple. Oh, and there are no deities (at least in the sense of "clerics and paladins" deities.

Todd

[Artanis]

As long as we're listing things, might as well add Heavy Gear. It's pretty much the exact opposite of DnD, even down to its dice system (SilCORE) being the exact opposite of d20.