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Divide by Zero
2010-01-27, 10:25 PM
Hi everyone, longtime lurker coming up for a question. I'm making a character for an epic campaign, and going to give Epic Spellcasting a try (DM ok'd it already). Now I don't know whether it's just poorly worded or if my comprehension skills are failing me, but I'm having difficulty understanding the Transform seed, as far as essentially changing your race goes. Specifically, I'm looking for a spell to turn the party into solars, but I'd like to understand the process in general better (rather than just giving me a Spellcraft DC and list of factors) for future reference or in case I change my mind. Any help?

Akal Saris
2010-01-27, 11:05 PM
The seed is poorly written, like most of the epic rules. I'll try to help, and I'm sorry if you already know most of this.

Basically, the seed works as polymorph (the 3.0 version). Unlike polymorph any object, the subject's mental stats don't change, so you wouldn't get the solar's Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25. Instead you use the seed and create an epic spell, like "Change Human to Solar".

Then you figure out the attributes of the solar:
Base DC 21
Medium to large size: no DC change
Humanoid to outsider: +5 DC
22 HD: +14 DC
New total: DC 40 (for a solar with no supernatural or (Ex) abilities)
Su and Ex abilities: it's +10 to the DC for each that a character gains, so this would by the book be about +300 to the DC. Work that out with your DM, I'd guesstimate about +50, or +100 if you included the cleric casting.

Then you'd work with your DM on mitigating factors for the spell, like lengthening it to an hour and requiring five assistants. This brings the DC down from astronomically high to painfully high. I'd eyeball DC 60 to be about appropriate, or DC 110 if it grants the 20th level spellcasting ability.

Then your character would pay the exp and gp costs and learn the spell. Then he could cast it!

Divide by Zero
2010-01-27, 11:19 PM
That's more or less how I thought it worked, but the description made it seem like it was more complicated than that. Thank you for clarifying.

A couple of more specific questions, though. First, regarding spellcasting, the seed description says that the target "acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature," and the special abilities section of the SRD says "Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like." Since spellcasting is none of those, wouldn't it be natural and therefore be automatically gained? Second, spell-like abilities are included among mental abilities (so you don't automatically gain them), but they aren't listed along with Su/Ex abilities for the +10. Is that a mistake, or can you just never get them without becoming a specific creature?

Akal Saris
2010-01-28, 03:10 AM
Glad I could help :) I read a lot of threads about how epic is broken, but very few about actually trying to use the rules without breaking them. As for your follow up questions...

Short answer: it's going to take house-ruling in the end.

Long answer:

It's probably an oversight that SLA's aren't mentioned along with Su and Ex ones, but RAW you wouldn't gain them. That's pretty stupid though.

Spellcasting doesn't fall neatly into (Ex), (Su), or (SLA), so arguments have raged on countless threads as to whether it constitutes a natural ability or not.

Strictly by my own personal interpretation of the rules I think that it's undefined (i.e. none of the above, like fighter bonus feats aren't Ex, Su, or SLA's) and that you don't get it, and as a sane DM, I don't allow Shapechange and Polymorph to grant spell-casting for free, even if I were to run an epic level game.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-01-28, 02:38 PM
Long answer:

It's probably an oversight that SLA's aren't mentioned along with Su and Ex ones, but RAW you wouldn't gain them. That's pretty stupid though.

Spellcasting doesn't fall neatly into (Ex), (Su), or (SLA), so arguments have raged on countless threads as to whether it constitutes a natural ability or not.

Strictly by my own personal interpretation of the rules I think that it's undefined (i.e. none of the above, like fighter bonus feats aren't Ex, Su, or SLA's) and that you don't get it, and as a sane DM, I don't allow Shapechange and Polymorph to grant spell-casting for free, even if I were to run an epic level game.

Technically, as the OP pointed out, innate spellcasting is a natural ability by default. Fighter bonus feats, if I remember correctly, are similarly (Ex) by virtue of not being explicitly typed (if I have remembered this correctly, then class given spellcasting (though not the spells themselves) is also (Ex), though there is more debate on this due to it not being an "ability" as such, lacking an entry in the Special column of a class).

Also, implying that people are not sane DM's because they would allow certain things is not recommended.:smalltongue: Your being a sane DM and your disallowing certain options are unrelated.

Divide by Zero
2010-01-28, 03:37 PM
Glad I could help :) I read a lot of threads about how epic is broken, but very few about actually trying to use the rules without breaking them.

I know the DM is going to be throwing some serious crap at us, so I'm just trying to get the most out of what I can without resorting to the serious cheese (chain-gate ritual casting and whatnot).

For now, I think I'll call it an ad-hoc +80 for the spells and spell-likes, and see how that goes.

Akal Saris
2010-01-29, 12:18 AM
Also, implying that people are not sane DM's because they would allow certain things is not recommended.:smalltongue: Your being a sane DM and your disallowing certain options are unrelated.

Eh, you got me there. I'll change that from "sane" to "prefers a level of optimization where you don't gain full casting in a second class simply by casting a single spell."

ScionoftheVoid
2010-01-29, 01:32 PM
Eh, you got me there. I'll change that from "sane" to "prefers a level of optimization where you don't gain full casting in a second class simply by casting a single spell."

Thank you. (I'd have replied earlier but I can't remember my password. I'll have to copy-paste it whilst signing in at some point, I have it remembering my password)