View Full Version : C'mon, we're in grad school people. Get with it. (Updated Update)
Upon editting the last portion of a group paper tonight, I had to go check a source to make sure I was editting it correctly (ie, not making it inaccurate).
Lo and behold, I find out that the sentence in our paper is the EXACT same as the sentence in the source. So...I check the rest of that paragraph (all of one other sentence). Same. I start at the beginning. The second sentence in his part is the same as the source.
At that point I called and told him to check his paper and change the stuff. I should be getting it back soon.
But C'MON! We're in grad school, plagerism should not be happening. Maybe it's cultural and plagerism isn't as much of a concern where he's from (India), but really...EVERY syllabus has a provision about academic honesty. *headdesk*
Yeah, I'm not sleeping. I get to make sure my groupmate isn't potentially getting me kicked out of university!
(I'm double checking my own stuff, and asked my other groupmates to check theirs. Just as a precaution. I just feel it's ridiculous at this point.)
SilentDragoon
2010-01-28, 12:12 AM
It is ridiculous by this point. Did he ever come by and ask for help or to take a bit lighter load or something? The only vaguely plausible excuse I'd take from someone would be that they are completely overwhelmed by grad school at the time and tried to take a shortcut, and I'd still give them a thrashing for endangering my team's continued enrollment. I can slightly understand grading and thesis and research and undergrads all piling up and eating the time for classwork to practically nothing, but even then I'd expect them to come and talk to me about splitting the load before rolling the dice on the rest of our futures.
Fortunately, while I have had freeloaders and other misfits in my groups in the past I've never discovered any cases of plagiarism. Generally my grad teams have just stuck together and adjusted for who needed time for whatever projects or research they may be struggling with at the time. Hope you get through the night alright, and hope that you're not stuck with that group for the rest of the semester.
phoenixineohp
2010-01-28, 12:14 AM
Yeah, that's rather surprising and pretty far past the line. I certainly wouldn't be very happy to find that. Thank goodness you checked your/his sources.
(Also, hi!:smallsmile:)
FinalJustice
2010-01-28, 12:20 AM
I do not envy you at all, really don't. Even if this guy is entirely willing to risk his carreer, plagiarism is very wrong. When you add the whole "jeopardizing fellow academics" issue, it's overkill.
From now on, my post will derail in unrequested advice. Do mind, I'm struggling to get my Master's Degree, so I am in no 'high position' to give any advice, take it with grains of salt:
I'd check all the references myself, just to be sure, then I'd run the paper through some online Plagiarism Detector (I found some Googling it, but did not actually test it). It's a huge workload generated by one person irresponsibility, but what can you do. =/
I'd also be more careful with comments such as " Maybe it's cultural and plagerism isn't as much of a concern where he's from (India)", both here and addressing the issue with him, as I can see how it would offend someone (and quickly become a shotgun offense as well). Your groupmate is the problem, not his country nor its culture.
Btw, best of luck with your paper. :)
So...well, he resent me the paper. Once again, it was just a few things combined or taken out. The actual content was phrased the same. At this point, I'm just going to talk with him tomorrow. I've since found 2 more sentences that were nearly identical. I'm changing them myself.
We're doing an MBA by the way. No one I know of has any outside research (thesis track isn't common at my university), and this is both of our second semester. I'm also certain he is not teaching any courses. He may or may not have a campus job (as an international student, he is not allowed to get a job off campus).
We actually have all of the same classes this term, and I know it's tough. We have a LOT of work, plus I know at least some of us work outside. It doesn't really excuse copying stuff.
As for the cultural thing, I'm not saying it's good or bad. There are many countries that do not see certain activities as bribes that Americans do; it's determined by culture. Maybe what he's got is fine for what he's used to. As I said, I wasn't making a value judgement. But universities here, at least, take plagerism incredibly seriously.
Anyway, off to finish working on this. ><
Knaight
2010-01-28, 12:31 AM
IP ideas do vary from spot to spot and culture to culture though. Although in this case I would blame it on laziness.
The issue is that high school rewards academic dishonesty. Someone who knows their material but doesn't do all the homework because they refuse to cheat at all get a worse grade than someone who copies homework(in math classes and similar) plagiarizes writings, and similar. People who copy off tests almost never get caught, so they are basically rewarded for that too. Then colleges look at GPAs, and it allows a lot of these types to get in. Although their habits now have a decent chance of getting them screwed over from what I've heard, so it sounds good to me.
...I just found out some of the stuff didn't have a source.
:smalleek:
It was small stuff, and I was able to work it around with the information he DID source (it was mostly the names of companies, that I couldn't find in the sources), but...*breathes* Talking to him tomorrow, one more chance with the next paper, and if there is still a problem then I'll be talking with our group, or failing that the teacher to see if I can move groups.
I pretty much see it as happening once is a mistake/accident/whatever and if it happens more it's intentional.
Sorry...I'm kinda...well, I LIKE school. I want to STAY in school. And if they find something like that, it could potentially kill my chances at more school.
Zeb The Troll
2010-01-28, 01:11 AM
Wow, it sounds like you're having to do your work AND his. As busy as grad school is, this can't be fun. I take it you don't have time to redistribute checking his work with the rest of the group? Is this your first group assignment? I know in the graduate courses I've taken, part of our group project grade is based on what our groupmates say in a peer evaluation that's submitted alongside the project. So if the project is spectacular, but one mate was total deadweight, the active participants get a good grade while the slacker gets his just desserts.
Solaris
2010-01-28, 01:11 AM
What about reporting him for it? Throw him under the bus before he drags you down with him.
IsaacTheHungry
2010-01-28, 01:24 AM
What about reporting him for it? Throw him under the bus before he drags you down with him.
As much as i hate saying this, i agree with Solaris. You did give him a chance to change and yet you are still doing his work because he didn't. Weather it is a case of laziness or culture, the teacher/staff need to now be involved. If the staff know about it before it is due they might just have a frank talk with him and give him a chance to turn in a good version. Once it is turned in it can be too late for the student/group. If the teacher/TA/Staff know ahead of time they can often work it out for you somehow.
This is our first group project together, I don't know how the teacher grades. I do know it's part individual/mostly group, but I don't know if he does peer evals.
No one else in the group knows so far, and I didn't even catch it until 11:30 tonight. I got his part last night at midnight (there was a good reason, don't worry, he wasn't just slacking), but didn't get to it until tonight after I got off work at 10:30. I only caught it because I was trying to make sure I got phrasing right. It was late enough I would have been highly uncomfortable calling any one other than him.
I do plan on discussing this with the group. I don't want to discuss it with the teacher just yet, because there is a chance it was unintentional and I don't want to throw him under the bus. Am I too nice? Yeah, definitely. It just makes me uneasy to do something like that sans face-to-face discussion/intervention.
Yeah, it sucks, but it wasn't a difficult assignment. The next few assignments will be, though.
I'll admit though, this only reinforces my habit of requesting to be the one to edit papers. I'm always worried about other's handling of papers and the like, so I volunteer for the extra work. I have yet to hear complaints. :smallwink:
We're doing an MBA by the way.
...
As for the cultural thing, I'm not saying it's good or bad. There are many countries that do not see certain activities as bribes that Americans do; it's determined by culture. Maybe what he's got is fine for what he's used to. As I said, I wasn't making a value judgement. But universities here, at least, take plagerism incredibly seriously.
Unfortunately, your fellow students don't seem to share your attitudes. MBA students have been found to cheat at higher rates than others. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsoftwaresecure.typepad.com%2Fmult iple_choice%2Ffiles%2Fmba_cheaters_article.pdf&ei=PEZhS8GhOYfEsQOFo4G_Cw&usg=AFQjCNGNqD-NqynKVb0ogqrV1vmoMCGfBw&sig2=ziaVX8qC8pwewD_ForiPig)
Zeb The Troll
2010-01-28, 03:26 AM
Unfortunately, your fellow students don't seem to share your attitudes. MBA students have been found to cheat at higher rates than others. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsoftwaresecure.typepad.com%2Fmult iple_choice%2Ffiles%2Fmba_cheaters_article.pdf&ei=PEZhS8GhOYfEsQOFo4G_Cw&usg=AFQjCNGNqD-NqynKVb0ogqrV1vmoMCGfBw&sig2=ziaVX8qC8pwewD_ForiPig)That article is three and a half years old, though, and doesn't mention if it's trending up or down after "the law" was passed making it less desirable to be unethical in business management. The majority of people attending grad school courses today probably weren't even in college at the time that study was done. The entire student population would have rolled over by now.
Serpentine
2010-01-28, 03:36 AM
I'd also be more careful with comments such as " Maybe it's cultural and plagerism isn't as much of a concern where he's from (India)", both here and addressing the issue with him, as I can see how it would offend someone (and quickly become a shotgun offense as well). Your groupmate is the problem, not his country nor its culture.It is possible, though. There was a big controversy at my uni not long ago because a whole bunch of students got caught plagiarising - all Asian (Chinese or Japanese, I forget) students. I believe they do tend to be disproportionately represented in those caught at my uni. If I recall correctly, they just didn't understand why it was such a big deal.
Along those sorts of lines, I heard recently about another foreign student, Middle Eastern of some sort, I believe, who got a speeding ticket or somesuch. It being the "done thing" where he was from, he just offered the police officer a nice bribe to make it go away... and found himself in jail for several months.
Don Julio Anejo
2010-01-28, 03:57 AM
Plagiarism is that big a deal pretty much only in the English-speaking countries (and a few non-English ones in Western Europe). I'm guessing fascist copyright laws are largely responsible for this, since according to them, misquoting a source on a university paper is almost equivalent to stealing movie tapes and then selling them on every street corner a month before the official release.
Hell, most schools in North America, you'd get into less trouble selling drugs than getting caught cheating. Hell, it's actually happened too - I met a guy who got kicked out (despite getting pretty good marks) for copying a paper at UBC. I also know at least three people who got caught selling weed (also at UBC) and all that happened to them was the weed getting confiscated by rentacops. Most likely _not_ for evidence.
Anyway, as for assignments... Don't go anal on people unless they actually deserve it. The misquoting (aside from copy and pasting part) also doesn't sound like that big a deal from my perspective, unless he actually made up a bunch of information and only added sources post factum (can't tell from over here, as I obviously never saw the paper).
PS: if you look at it logically, there isn't exactly anything wrong with bribing a cop for a speeding ticket. After all, the whole point of fining people for speeding is not to make money off them, but to prevent them from speeding and hurting themselves and possibly others. Either way the person has to pay (although probably less if it's directly to the cop), but if a cop knows he can make money for himself, he's going to try that much harder to catch streetracers, hopefully making people drive slower in the end.
_Zoot_
2010-01-28, 04:39 AM
PS: if you look at it logically, there isn't exactly anything wrong with bribing a cop for a speeding ticket. After all, the whole point of fining people for speeding is not to make money off them, but to prevent them from speeding and hurting themselves and possibly others. Either way the person has to pay (although probably less if it's directly to the cop), but if a cop knows he can make money for himself, he's going to try that much harder to catch streetracers, hopefully making people drive slower in the end.
I really have to argue that, it encourages corruption and if taken to its logical conclusion might have the police pulling over people that were not speeding and forcing them to pay the brides, because there is no way that one could say that they were not speeding if there was no real system that was used to make sure that the fines were legit. It could also flow over into other areas of law enforcement, you would not want your police to be so used to taking brides that they weren't bothered by taking them from organised crime groups that would then exploit the lack of control that may be caused by wide spread corruption.
Serpentine
2010-01-28, 06:50 AM
PS: if you look at it logically, there isn't exactly anything wrong with bribing a cop for a speeding ticket. After all, the whole point of fining people for speeding is not to make money off them, but to prevent them from speeding and hurting themselves and possibly others. Either way the person has to pay (although probably less if it's directly to the cop), but if a cop knows he can make money for himself, he's going to try that much harder to catch streetracers, hopefully making people drive slower in the end.Aside from what Zoot said (police taking bribes is called corruption, and runs counter to justice), he attempted this bribe at the police station.
Personally, I think plagiarism is deservedly a big deal, though perhaps more worthy of forgiveness than it presently is. It is not like "stealing movie tapes and then selling them on every street corner a month before the official release". It's like stealing movie tapes and then selling them as though you made them. It's claiming that you wrote something that someone else did; it's lazy;, and in an academic setting it demonstrates only copy-paste skills, no indication that you've actually understood the topic, and no demonstration of writing skills.
Quincunx
2010-01-28, 08:05 AM
Syka, does your university expel students for plagiarism? If it does, this guy is running the risk of losing his visa and being thrown out of the country. Alternately, hold a brief workshop on the American use of the double quotation mark to distinguish exact quotes; since he's pulling sentences and not entire paragraphs, it really may be just a different style of citing a source and not brazen plagiarism. Paragraphs studded with double quotation marks might not be pretty or polished, but they're at least accurate.
Jacklu
2010-01-28, 10:37 AM
Yeah... I would double check to see that he isn't trying to direct quote. I know that if I am writing a paper and am overloaded, I tend to direct quote for the ease of not having to rephrase it all. But still, it is a good thing you checked, because plagiarism is a big thing, especially in grad school. o_O
Quin, we do expel for that (or they "can" expel you, I should say). Ironically, my mom sent me an email this morning that forwarded one she got- about a plagiarism workshop tomorrow! The coincidence kills me, heh.
It turns out many of his narrative sentences were pulled from the source with either part of the original sentence removed (leaving the unchanged part) and/or changing only one word. The redone part he sent me basically just shortened the parts that he'd copied and combined them so it was less obvious they were copied. If he'd used quotation marks, about 75% of his narrative portion would have been quotes, which we're generally told is Bad Idea. Better Idea than plagerism, but Not Good, either. If he'd used direct quotes, I wouldn't have been worried at all. It's the lack of direct quote that made me *headdesk*
As for being anal, I don't really let them know it. I offer to edit the paper, and I've yet to have anyone want to do it instead. So I edit it, and they usually like the changes (since it's mostly grammar/making it sound smoother). If they want it changed back, I will.
As for MBA's and plagiarizing....>< Ick. Yeah, my programs a two year program so all of the students are from Fall 2008 or later. Many of my classmates are from Fall 2009, like myself, due to the way our program is set up where they like us to go through as a cohort.
The only thing I have about the bribery discussion is check out "Olympics" and "Bribes". Apparently some Americans, I believe from Salt Lake, bribed some of the Olympic Committee officials or some such. We freaked out over here and over in Europe they were going "WTH is your problem, America?"
Hell, most schools in North America, you'd get into less trouble selling drugs than getting caught cheating. Hell, it's actually happened too - I met a guy who got kicked out (despite getting pretty good marks) for copying a paper at UBC. I also know at least three people who got caught selling weed (also at UBC) and all that happened to them was the weed getting confiscated by rentacops. Most likely _not_ for evidence.
That's just good business. Colleges, with some exceptions, don't care about drugs. As long as their students stay alive and out of jail (both of which prevent them from paying tuition), they have no reason to care. Every student they report to the police for drug possession is thousands or tens of thousands of dollars that they lose. Cheaters, on the other hand, do actually hurt them. They don't want a reputation as "that school that tolerates cheating," as that will weaken the perception of the degrees they issue, which in turn decreases the number of students they will get.
Slayn82
2010-01-28, 01:06 PM
Culture shock on work here. I doubt an Indian student would get to make an MBA at USA without good references and much dedication to his field.
Not when in a lot of other places around the world are way more affordable.
So he probably was choosen to be there. He is probably a competent person, but his working scheme and the spectations that he is used to meet are diferent. In most parts of the world, its usual to quote in longer academic works parts of relevant material inside the text, to act as quick reference.
How you format that, althought, varies from country to country. And to exemplify those cultural differences, lets remember the troubles a simple exchange of (,) and (.) can cause - 1,000 and 1.000 - in most countries the first means one and the second one thousand. But if you go to english speaking countries, or those heavily influenced by then, well, things get a little fun. Not.
And the NASA lost a space mission due to troubles converting gallons to liters and miles to kilometers. Because the engineers who did the planning were not used to the metric sistem.
So, if the guy has a good understanding of the subject matter, and is actively colaborating in presentation or other aspects, and he is new in your country, talk to him, and be honest about what are the troubles, and how they are usually adressed in your university. If he is a good and conscious person, he will make sure to improve his shortcomings.
PS: And about the guy trying to pay a fine in the police station, well, i know at least 2 countries were you do such a thing there, because its the local law. Cultural shock is a big trouble. If you doubt, go with a skull T-shirt to China (like the Oots Xykon one, or Iron Maiden's Eddie) and start giving thumbs up to everyone you meet. They'll be amused. Not.
Slayn, your example is exactly why I don't want to report it officially or anything yet. I don't think it was his intent so much as a misunderstanding. I mean, he did his part and he did it on time, which is a big thing (last semester one of my group members was HORRIBLE about that...she's in two of my classes this term, and I made a conscious effort to not be in her group...great girl, horrible worker). As I said, this is why I'm not automatically doing anything other than discussing it with him- I know many cultures have different ways of doing stuff.
As for the period versus comma in numbers- I totally know what you mean! Every now and then I encounter it and I just automatically adjust it based upon what nationality wrote it and by what makes more sense (for the comma v. period for numbers thing).
I'll admit, I love my university if only for one reason- the diversity. We have people from around the world in my classes and it's been a wonderful experience. It's been pretty cool- although getting used to my Indian friends shaking their head left to right to mean "Yes" or "OK" took a bit of time, haha.
snoopy13a
2010-01-28, 01:38 PM
It turns out many of his narrative sentences were pulled from the source with either part of the original sentence removed (leaving the unchanged part) and/or changing only one word. The redone part he sent me basically just shortened the parts that he'd copied and combined them so it was less obvious they were copied. If he'd used quotation marks, about 75% of his narrative portion would have been quotes, which we're generally told is Bad Idea. Better Idea than plagerism, but Not Good, either. If he'd used direct quotes, I wouldn't have been worried at all. It's the lack of direct quote that made me *headdesk*
Actually, that is usually considered plagarism. In order to use someone else's work correctly you need to either:
1) Quote and cite the source correctly
2) Paraphrase in ones own voice and cite the source correctly
Changing a word or two and using bits of the original authors sentences is not paraphrasing in ones own voice and is plagarism. Note that this creates a bit of a gray area between what is proper paraphrasing and what isn't.
As for information, if something isn't clearly common knowledge then it should be cited.
cucchulainnn
2010-01-28, 03:04 PM
unfortunately not all universities see cheating as a problem.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2006/12/cheating_scandal_at_columbia_n.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=yxv&q=columbia,+cheating+scandal&start=10&sa=N
So...this situation became a saga. :smallsigh:
I sent our paper to the teacher at 2pm yesterday. I'd sent them the 'semi-almost-final-copy-pending-group-OK's' copy at around 2am. I let them all know it'd be late Wednesday night when it'd get to them. In the email and in person I'd let them know if I didn't hear by 1pm that I'd assume it was OK and send it to the teacher. I gave an hour leeway, and someone did call to say it was OK. The student in question about the plagarism said everything looked OK. One of my group members had a few cosmetic changes to suggest.
I tried calling the fourth group member twice, to no avail.
I leave for the bus around 2:15. I check my email by phone from the bus stop.
The fourth group member sent me a TOTALLY REDONE version of her part. She changed all of her numbers and added some new stuff in. This email had been sent at 2:07. I let her know I couldn't add it in, that I'd already sent it, and that I'd ask the professor if I could send him the revised copy after class.
She said SHE called the professor and he said it was OK to send it. He did not apparently realize I ALREADY had sent a copy. This resulted in confusion on his end and ragging on our group throughout the class. She also didn't have the copy I'd sent to the professor with the changes our other group mate had asked for, and so sent the old copy.
So at this point I spent my whole bus ride to class going ":smallmad::smallannoyed::smalleek::smallsigh::smal lyuk:"
We ended up having a group pow-wow during the break to get everything straightened. I wasn't the only one upset, thankfully, and got back up from the two other members. We asked the professor to go off the paper the had been sent originally by me, and apologized for the confusion.
Yeah, the 24 hour period from about 9PM on Wednesday to 9PM Thursday blew for me. I don't think we'll have a problem with late submissions any more, but I'm not so sure about the copying (despite the group going "Don't do it! If you need help, ask someone else in the group or check out Turnitin.com!"; he neither admitted to the others that he was the one having difficulty (only one other member knows it was him because she asked directly) nor did he apologize to me privately or comment on the changes I made to his part).
At least the last 24 hours has been much better. Lets hope the questionable members shape up.
snoopy13a
2010-01-29, 06:32 PM
At least the last 24 hours has been much better. Lets hope the questionable members shape up.
Honestly, this makes me glad I'm in law school where we're all out for ourselves :smallsmile: . I realize that group work is necessary for MBA programs as it simulates teamwork one will see in a real life work environment but I'd be pulling out my hair if I was in a group with a plagariser and my academic integrity was in danger of being questioned.
What's awful is that you did what you had to do and that may have ruffled some feathers and caused people to get angry with you. On the bright side, MBA programs are three semesters (right?) so you're almost at the halfway point.
My program is 4 semesters. If I really wanted to, I could probably mash it into three by taking more summer courses. It's designed for 4, though, plus I'll be likely moving in Fall 2011 anyway so I don't want to graduate, get another job, then move.
But yeah, almost half done.
I'll be honest, I loathe group work. I have only ever had 1 fully positive group experience, which was during an undergrad psych classes. I know pretty much all of my classes will require group work, sadly. :smallsigh: I figure this is good prep for the real world, if nothing else.
Honestly...I felt a little bad when I was talking (seeing as I was the de facto coordinator, I was the only one who knew everything that was happening), but it needed to be said and done. If we have an issue with plagerism again, I WILL go speak with the professor, though. I will pass once off as a learning curve; twice is risking my own butt for their stupidity. I can handle people being late/not coming to meetings/whatever. Plagarism is a way bigger issue.
Pyrian
2010-01-29, 07:20 PM
One of the interesting things about group experiences in business (as opposed to at school) is that there's usually somebody (or several people) whose got the job of assigning credit, blame, and making final calls. This can be very helpful if that person (or people) is good at their job. (It is, of course, entirely disastrous if they're not.)
One of the interesting things about group experiences in business (as opposed to at school) is that there's usually somebody (or several people) whose got the job of assigning credit, blame, and making final calls. This can be very helpful if that person (or people) is good at their job. (It is, of course, entirely disastrous if they're not.)
I am personally a fan of the 'peer evaluation' method in college. It rarely happens, but oh- when it does, it's glorious. You get to extol those who did a good job, and those who drug you down get tossed in the fire.
'Cause I'll be honest...If I'm the only one in a group whose willing to do A-quality work, I'll bust my butt to make sure we get an A regardless of if I get the credit. But if I get to let the professor know they did jack, then that's a bonus.
arguskos
2010-01-29, 07:29 PM
I'll be honest, I loathe group work. I have only ever had 1 fully positive group experience, which was during an undergrad psych classes. I know pretty much all of my classes will require group work, sadly. :smallsigh: I figure this is good prep for the real world, if nothing else.
I can second this feeling. I was once forced out of a group and failed from a class after I sent my work to the group members, because they didn't like my writing STYLE. I even offered to change it! But they went straight to the professor with a story of me being difficult to work with and not responding to their emails (I had responded, and had proof), and he failed me. :smallsigh:
I detest group work. Other people cannot be relied upon.
Knaight
2010-01-29, 07:32 PM
That is a little extreme. I like group work personally, but only if certain conditions are met.
1) The people are reliable workers.
2) The people have been paying enough attention at whatever we are working together on to be competent.
When number 1 fails it is incredibly frustrating; number 2 is in some ways worse, although the gesture means things; and numbers 1 and 2 both fail it is incredibly frustrating, although you do know that if they could help they would get in the way, and were they competent and not reliable it would be that much more irritating.
Sinon
2010-01-29, 07:51 PM
The only vaguely plausible excuse I'd take from someone would be that they are completely overwhelmed by grad school at the time and tried to take a shortcut, and I'd still give them a thrashing for endangering my team's continued enrollment.
I find it completely plausible that someone could be that clueless as to what plagiarism is.
Not excusable for that.
I'd check all the references myself, just to be sure, then I'd run the paper through some online Plagiarism Detector (I found some Googling it, but did not actually test it). It's a huge workload generated by one person irresponsibility, but what can you do. =/You HAVE to do this. Most universities have this available to anyone who is teaching at the very least. This is your whole future.
What about reporting him for it? Throw him under the bus before he drags you down with him.
+2
Seriously: You can't go down with that ship.
You’re trying for your MBA, do the cost benefit of it. How confident are you you’ll find all his mistakes? Do you want to explain the situation to your prof before or after he does?
Was your major business or social work? If the prof wants to take his background into consideration, that’s his prerogative. And no one’s in a position to question his choice there.
Picture yourself in front of your department head trying to defend your role in this on the basis that you “knew he was cheating, but didn’t want to get anyone in trouble.”
I'll be honest, I loathe group work. I have only ever had 1 fully positive group experience, which was during an undergrad psych classes. I know pretty much all of my classes will require group work, sadly. :smallsigh: I figure this is good prep for the real world, if nothing else.I tell students, if you've never been on a group project where there was at least one lazy, useless pile, guess what! It was you!
Anyway, sounds like you might have gotten things sorted out, but still, I would still have a talk with your professor. Don’t wait til next time. Next time, you might miss it. If you get nailed, is he going to step up and take full credit for the “error”?
Sinon, you do make a good point. I will talk with the other member of the group who knows who it was who did it, and see what she thinks and maybe approach the rest of the group.
My undergraduate degree was in Classical Studies (Latin and Greek) with a concentration in Psychology (basically, my university didn't offer a minor in it and I couldn't double major at that point, so ALL of my electives are psychology).
Either way...I dunno. What you all say is probably correct, I'm just too nice some times...:smallsigh:
ETA: Also, none of us are teaching currently, so we'd only have whatever we can find online to check for plagerism.
potatocubed
2010-01-29, 08:02 PM
I'd just like to point out that I work with Indian academics on a daily basis, and they know that plagiarism is not tolerated. His cultural background is irrelevant.
On the other hand, if you told me his entire higher education had been done in the US, I would find it totally believable that he simply had no idea how to write an academic paper and cite sources correctly.
Or perhaps he's just deadweight. This is also a possibility.
Sinon
2010-01-29, 08:31 PM
My undergraduate degree was in Classical Studies (Latin and Greek) with a concentration in Psychology (basically, my university didn't offer a minor in it and I couldn't double major at that point, so ALL of my electives are psychology).
OMG! It's worse than I thought: with that skill set you have precisely two career paths ahead of you:
1) Higher education, or
2) That wicked smart guy who works the latte machine at Starbucks Barnes and Noble. (Latin and Greek.)
Just kidding. :smallbiggrin:
But seriously don't let someone else slam door #1 shut on you out of some misguided sense of altruism.
(I was not kidding.)
I don't care if he came from Mars; if he lacks the most basic understanding of academic ethics at your university, he shouldn't be in a grad program there. If he gets the ethics but still plagiarizes for any reason, same story.
...he did it again. I caught it early enough this time that I forwarded it to one of my other group members (the girl who knows which person it was) and I'm going to ask her to compare it and see if it's worth talking to the teacher about. What I DO know is that I don't want to work with him any more, period.
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
Pyrian
2010-02-17, 08:03 PM
Ah, humans. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. :smallcool:
Serpentine
2010-02-17, 08:32 PM
I think at this point it's time to talk to your lecturer, if you haven't already.
RandomNPC
2010-02-17, 09:14 PM
... snip ...
I detest group work. Other people cannot be relied upon.
QFT.
I will work with people when assigned, i will tell people when I do not understand and require clarification, I expect the same. I have utterly failed at teamwork, but not for a lack of trying. When you sit there for twenty minuets staring at a neon light, i will buy you one of those neon blue bug zappers and let you off yourself.
Granted I will give each person a chance, but if you blow it, to bad for you. By all means, turn them in and explain how you already covered for them once. (if the teacher thinks it's a one time deal they may let it slide)
If you can't tell i'm a bit angry at teammates, but my suppervisor at work is my dad and he refuses to do anything about it on my word because he doesn't want to let it seem like he's favoring me, so I get to work with all the good ones.
I talked with the two teammates I've not had issues with and right now we're probably going to break off to form two smaller groups. Our group is fairly large and unwieldy for the projects we're doing, so this is kind of the final straw.
We may or may not outright tell the teacher about these problems, but I (and at least one, but likely two) will not be remaining with the others. If needed, I won't hesitate to explain beyond the unwieldiness, I'd just rather not.
....mainly because I've now found another person whose copied. Two of them...the two who were partnered together, ironically (but they both answered separately and combined it). I know the two who I plan to break off with have not been copying and take it very seriously.
Hey, at least I'm not freaking out this time. :smallsmile:
Yardo
2010-02-17, 10:56 PM
Sounds like it's moving in the right way now, good to hear. Also good to hear that you are not freaking out anymore. If you freak out every time someone cheats, lies or in some other way bends the rules, you will be freaking out constantly, and thats no good.
Sounds like it's moving in the right way now, good to hear. Also good to hear that you are not freaking out anymore. If you freak out every time someone cheats, lies or in some other way bends the rules, you will be freaking out constantly, and thats no good.
Well, now I expect it. And this depresses me, actually. :smallfrown:
Yardo
2010-02-18, 12:06 AM
Hope I did not make it worse, that was not my intention, sorry. I'm tired, working all night. :smallsigh:
Hope I did not make it worse, that was not my intention, sorry. I'm tired, working all night. :smallsigh:
No, I'm depressed by the fact that it's a fact of life. Until this point, my only negative group experience has been Loafers. I've never yet dealt with someone who copied sources...and now I have two. Academic dishonesty was something I knew happened, but just not that people I worked with did.
Well, now I have first hand experience. And this is depressing. I guess the fact that it took until I was nearly 23 to discover this is a plus. *shrug*
JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 12:41 AM
Plagiarism is that big a deal pretty much only in the English-speaking countries (and a few non-English ones in Western Europe). I'm guessing fascist copyright laws are largely responsible for this, since according to them, misquoting a source on a university paper is almost equivalent to stealing movie tapes and then selling them on every street corner a month before the official release.
Hell, most schools in North America, you'd get into less trouble selling drugs than getting caught cheating. Hell, it's actually happened too - I met a guy who got kicked out (despite getting pretty good marks) for copying a paper at UBC. I also know at least three people who got caught selling weed (also at UBC) and all that happened to them was the weed getting confiscated by rentacops. Most likely _not_ for evidence.
Plagiarism has been unacceptable in academica well before modern copyright laws. Copyright and plagiarism are essentially different issues. One can easily have one without the other. For example, if someone copies without attribution from a public domain source, that's plagiarism but not a copyrightviolation. If I copy a book wholesale and attribute it correctly, that's a copyright violation but not plagiarism.
Plagiarism is taken seriously because academia is about creating new works, adding to our understanding of the universe around us, and enriching us all with new works. Plagiarism goes against the fundamental ethos of a university. It should be more serious than pot. Pot is an essentially victimless crime. There are good arguments both for and against its legality, but it simply doesn't in any way attack the core values of a university.
Serpentine
2010-02-18, 12:49 AM
Syka, have you flat-out said to these people to their faces "this is plagiarism, and it is not tolerated at university"? Breaking off is fine, but if you're not going to tell any authority I'd do the above, at least.
Pocketa
2010-02-18, 02:04 AM
It's sad because they allow high school athletes to get away with that sort of thing. Not all athletes do it, obviously, but some get special permission.
Serpentine
2010-02-18, 02:33 AM
There's no way in Hell they'd get away with that here. My uni even got into national papers (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/une-accused-of-allowing-plagiarists-to-graduate/story-0-1225755730545) for "allowing" plagiarists to graduate, and every single class you get briefed (http://www.une.edu.au/policies/pdf/plagiarismstudentinfocw.pdf)on how plagiarism is a great big fat no-no and how to avoid it.
Sinon
2010-02-18, 07:37 AM
We may or may not outright tell the teacher about these problems, but I (and at least one, but likely two) will not be remaining with the others. If needed, I won't hesitate to explain beyond the unwieldiness, I'd just rather not.
You're in an MBA program.
Turning them in isn't personal. It's business.
You show your prof what you've got, and if she thinks it's no big deal, no harm.
If she does, your butt is covered for any past or future shenanigans on the part of your team members.
I gave this advice before, you say nothing, and then get in trouble, guilt by association, there's little you can do. You're either complicit or (almost worse) ignorant.
At the least, go to an outside authority, like an academic advisor or another professor. Show him. Ask advice. Then (in addition to the advice) you've got yourself covered if it does come back to haunt you.
Thursday
2010-02-18, 11:07 AM
T and every single class you get briefed ]on how plagiarism is a great big fat no-no and how to avoid it.
Yes. We in The north of England do this too, and I've sat on committee meetings (as the graduate rep) where we reviewed the policy on this. They take a very hardline approach to plagiarism and there aren't really second chances. Also, everything is checked against the common sources and using a computer text matching program, -which is why you now have to submit an electronic copy of everything as well- and it will be picked up on.
Best to distance yourself, but sounds like you know this, and have lots of other problems with them too. Sympathies.
sparkyinbozo
2010-02-18, 11:48 AM
Hey man, I'm also a grad student, and thought I'd weigh in.
This isn't something you can let yourself be associated with, for your own sake. It's up to your discretion how you handle it (talk with person or prof), but don't let it happen. Unless he's got some reality-testing problems, he knew the risks of plagiarism-laziness when committing it.
Not to talk down about MBA's, but cheating at this level is shockingly common, especially in business-related programs. Maybe it'll discourage others doing the same.
Syka, have you flat-out said to these people to their faces "this is plagiarism, and it is not tolerated at university"? Breaking off is fine, but if you're not going to tell any authority I'd do the above, at least.
Yes, yes we have. I talked with the first guy in particular and the group as a whole. The first guy and another member both did it this time. We also sign an Academic Integrity policy when entering the university. They know. Very well.
Sinon, we are going to the professor with it. I'm also going to let him know I've done my best to fix the paper and that it should be OK but I apologize if something got through. I'm going to offer to forward him the emails I recieved from the group members in question with their original submissions to me.
Even though my college's handbook doesn't address what to do if a student discovers/suspects, his syllabus does request that we come to him if we see it happening. So....yeah. I know it's nothing personal, I just hate being put in this position.
Oh, and the college's official policy is for a first offense, generally they get a 0 grade for the assignment, and potentially an F for the course. I'm pretty sure that's the extent of punishment for a first offense, but expulsion is a possible punishment if it happens again, or some such.
Wish me luck...Me and at least one other group member will be talking with the teacher in a few hours; I'll let y'all know how it goes.
Trobby
2010-02-18, 01:17 PM
Mmm...it's too bad that you're not the kind who likes to work in groups Syka, because from what I've heard, you would make an excellent group partner. You're not only willing to look over other group members' work and give them input, but also very understanding of others when the quality of their work is sub-par, and very careful about letting everyone in the group know about everything you're doing together.
^^; Of course, I have a tendency to slack off a bit myself when there aren't goals set out for myself. Especially now, when I'm online and not actively seeing my groupmates every day. <.<; But at least I always do my part of the work and get it done on time. ^^;
Be prepared to have the person you turn in hate you for it, but know that you did the right thing. You gave him every opportunity to prove that he knew what he did was wrong, and if you let him continue to do it over and over, he's only going to endanger the academic integrity of every student group he works with.
Be prepared to have the person you turn in hate you for it, but know that you did the right thing. You gave him every opportunity to prove that he knew what he did was wrong, and if you let him continue to do it over and over, he's only going to endanger the academic integrity of every student group he works with.
Aww, thanks. :smallredface: After this, I will never complain about a slacker. At least then I don't have to REDO work, it's just doing the work. :smallwink:
I'm going to try to not let either of them get mad at me. Yes, it's gone from 1 to 2 people. The infection is spreading! But yeah....I have back up, too, so it's not like I'm going it alone, thankfully. I'm sure they'll know it was me but, whatever. He seems like a nice enough guy and I know I'll have further classes with him (all 3 this term we have together; since we move in cohorts I know I will again), but I'd rather deal with scorn than an F.
ETA: As another source of stress, I'm currently unable to get a hold of the girl doing our powerpoint. This worries me, not because of the project, because she's never gone off the grid as such. She said she'd have the powerpoint to me this morning and call but...no communication whatsoever. I'm worrying about her. >>
Thursday
2010-02-18, 03:49 PM
Oh, and the college's official policy is for a first offense, generally they get a 0 grade for the assignment, and potentially an F for the course. I'm pretty sure that's the extent of punishment for a first offense, but expulsion is a possible punishment if it happens again, or some such.
Policy sounds exactly the same as ours, -We removed two students from the university last year, for a second offence, maybe we're harsher, though it was really, really blatant copying...
Even though my college's handbook doesn't address what to do if a student discovers/suspects, his syllabus does request that we come to him if we see it happening. So....yeah. I know it's nothing personal, I just hate being put in this position.
This is still the best way, but I appreciate its painful and sucks. They (the Teaching staff) will then know you're honest. Since you tried talking to the perpetrators and explained how serious it is, you don't really have much choice.. They are unlikely to get away with it. I've been in situations working with people who won't see eye to ey with me on something serious, and I know its really, really frustrating.
I wish you good Luck.
Trobby
2010-02-18, 04:50 PM
Aww, thanks. :smallredface: After this, I will never complain about a slacker. At least then I don't have to REDO work, it's just doing the work. :smallwink:
Right! Just because we happen to meander a bit doesn't mean we don't put some quality into our work! ...just most of the time...<.<;
Also glad to make you smile. ^^ Any day where I can make someone smile is a good day.
KerfuffleMach2
2010-02-19, 12:45 AM
My school is strict on its plagiarism policies. To the point of one plagiarism can be enough to fail an assignment. Do it too many times, and they can kick you right out.
My school doesn't mess around.
We spoke with the professor last night and basically told him the size of the group (six people) was allowing some to slack off and that we had come across two of the members copying parts directly from the sources without quotations. We didn't mention names, he didn't ask names.
But he was the one who asked if we three wanted to split off into a group. We did, and took over the previously abandoned group (there wasn't enough people). He volunteered to email them, without us asking, and although it's going to be kinda awkward since we didn't have a chance to talk to the group ourselves (we wanted to get the OK to split before possibly causing more issues in a group we needed to stay in first), it'll be OK.
So...it worked out. Me and the two girls who actually worked honestly on it (yes, I've checked their sources, too) are in a group; the ones who'd copied and/or slacked off are in their own group now. Granted, my group has ANOTHER project due next week on top of the one we did in the massive group this week, but it's worth it.
Thanks for the help guys. :) From here on out it's in the teachers hands.
Runestar
2010-02-20, 08:57 AM
So they didn't even bother to paraphrase the information they copied?
Talk about slack...:smallyuk:
Thursday
2010-02-20, 06:45 PM
Sounds good.
well done.
T.
Firestar27
2010-02-21, 03:30 PM
Nice to hear that this is resolved. :smallsmile:
Because if there's one thing I can't stand, it's cheating and lying. :smallyuk:
(well, actually, it's a disrespect for the "system" or disrespect for the idea of respect, but that's another and longer story. :smalltongue:)
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