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View Full Version : What is the best true support class?



AkazilliaDeNaro
2010-01-28, 08:03 AM
i wanted to make a true support person no combat just buffs debuffs heals and the such

origanaly i wanted to make a fearon vesion of R2D2 from darths and droids but ii gave up

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 08:05 AM
Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is the buffer, healer, loremonkey and summoner all in one.

Factotum can do it all, but is less sustainable.

Ernir
2010-01-28, 08:15 AM
Anything with War Weaver, a PrC from Heroes of Battle.

AkazilliaDeNaro
2010-01-28, 08:19 AM
so this cleric thing is going to work?
i wanted to make sortof a pacifist to freak my DM out

Prime32
2010-01-28, 08:27 AM
Vow of Peace, heading into Apostle of Peace.

Some levels of marshal.

The Draconic Aura feat.

Longcat
2010-01-28, 08:32 AM
Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration.

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 08:32 AM
Vow of Peace, heading into Apostle of Peace.

Nerfing your entire party as a class feature is not support.

Shardan
2010-01-28, 08:34 AM
Wizard, because magic can do ANYTHING.. the only class you need :/

Fenix_of_Doom
2010-01-28, 08:50 AM
Sounds like a job for the Beguiler to me, enough skillpoints to cover whatever you want, full casting with a spell list with a few buffs and a lot of debuff/control spells and they can UMD a wand of cure light wounds for out of combat healing.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-28, 09:29 AM
Wizard, because magic can do ANYTHING.. the only class you need :/

This. Wizards make awesome support classes.

As a side note, IoTSv is a great PrC for support. Huge bonuses vs dispel to abjuration, and the ability to say no to a wide variety of attacks on your mates.

Longcat
2010-01-28, 09:36 AM
Planar Shepherd

Nothing beats free wishes for your party. Except for free drinks!

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 09:43 AM
Planar Shepherd

Nothing beats free wishes for your party. Except for free drinks!

Free Time Stop as well, with a fast time planar bubble around your team.

Then you Wild Shape into an Outsider and gain their (Su) abilities. For teh lulz.

Magnor Criol
2010-01-28, 09:54 AM
Planar Shepherd

Nothing beats free wishes for your party. Except for free drinks!

Free time I've heard, but I haven't heard the free wishes trick with PS. What's this about?

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 09:57 AM
Free time I've heard, but I haven't heard the free wishes trick with PS. What's this about?

You can wild shape into any outsider native to your chosen plane, gaining all their abilities each time you do so.

a) Turn into something that can grant wishes to the party.
b) ???
c) Profit

Person_Man
2010-01-28, 09:58 AM
I would warn against frequent use of "always on" class features, like the Marshal or Dragon Shaman's aura, and (essentially) the Bard's music, which improve your damage or abilities by a certain increment. From a metagame perspective, this tends to just make the DM push up the difficulty of every encounter by the same increment. (Although a smart Bard can solve this problem by saving his music uses for important/difficult battles, even if he has tons of uses per day to use them in every battle and your other party members complain). So I would argue that the best support classes tend to be the full casters who choose to use buff, healing, battlefield control, and toolbox spells. They can pick and choose their power level as the game dictates.

I also would like to put forward the quirky addition of the Necrocarnate, a weird 13 level PrC from Magic of Incarnum. When built correctly, it can do anything a Skill Monkey, Totemist, or Incarnate can do. But you start out the day with a small amount of essentia. You gain more essentia by consuming the souls of recently dead, which gives you more essentia for the next 24 hours. When played "honestly" you start the adventure weak, but gain power as your party kills more enemies. Thus your power scale the opposite of casters and psionics, who lose powers and consume resources the more that they fight. In many ways this makes them the ultimate support class. Of course, your DM could mess with you by throwing only non-living enemies at you, in which cased you're somewhat screwed. Or you could use a Pipe of the Sewers or pour boiling water on an ant hill to kill many living things, gaining thousands of points of essentia. In which case the DM bans the Necrocarnate.

tyckspoon
2010-01-28, 09:59 AM
Free time I've heard, but I haven't heard the free wishes trick with PS. What's this about?

Planar Shepherd allows you to Wildshape into the inhabitants of the plane you choose, with all their abilities including Supernaturals. Be a Planar Shepherd attuned to a plane with things that can grant Wishes. Turn into one. Grant Wishes- Efreet are a classic, of course.

Incidentally, the expanded Wildshape abuse and the Planar Bubble abuses tend not to be achievable at the same time. It depends on the cosmology in use, naturally, but generally the really awesome outsiders/elementals/templated magical beasts live on fairly boring planes.

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 10:02 AM
Incidentally, the expanded Wildshape abuse and the Planar Bubble abuses tend not to be achievable at the same time. It depends on the cosmology in use, naturally, but generally the really awesome outsiders/elementals/templated magical beasts live on fairly boring planes.

Region of Dreams (MotP) has fast time (10x), plus every creature in the game.

2xMachina
2010-01-28, 10:07 AM
Wonder if you can have the party wizard genesis a special plane for this... Any traits you want + import outsiders to live there.

Make your own plane Planar Shepperd = Win.

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 10:14 AM
Wonder if you can have the party wizard genesis a special plane for this... Any traits you want + import outsiders to live there.

Make your own plane Planar Shepperd = Win.

You can, but reselecting your plane makes you restart the PrC from PS 1.

However, the book says nothing about actually losing experience, so by RAW you can just tack the levels back on immediately anyway, losing nothing.

AkazilliaDeNaro
2010-01-28, 10:19 AM
whoa okay uh, any idea where online i can find some recommended spell lists for a wizard support

dspeyer
2010-01-28, 10:23 AM
A lot of the best buff spells are arcane only: enlarge person, mage armor, fly, greater bull's strength.... Very few are divine only. You probably want an arcane caster.

Arcanists also get better PrCs: incantrix and war weaver.

You might want to mix in some bard, since that stacks nicely. There are many options, using some combination of sublime chord, prestige bard and virtuoso.

Cyclocone
2010-01-28, 10:30 AM
Arcanists also get better PrCs: incantrix and war weaver.

And Spellguard of Silverymoon.

Eldariel
2010-01-28, 10:31 AM
Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso is pretty good. Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver/Virtuoso is prolly even better. War Weaver's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870806/War_Weavers_Handbook,_Black_Tactica_Edition) may interest you.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-28, 10:52 AM
Yeah, War Weaver pretty much wins. Spellguard of Silverymoon is hard to work in unless you're spending almost the entire adventure in Silverymoon, or your DM is willing to waive those (rather significant) requirements.

An interesting idea I had was Bard 2/Wizard 1/Master Specialist 2/Ultimate Magus 2/War Weaver 2/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver +3/whatever 5. The lost level of War Weaver is pretty much negated by Sublime Chord, plus going dual advancement gives you a lot of lower level spell slots. You can cast things like Cure Light Wounds and have full access to the Sor/Wiz list.

AkazilliaDeNaro
2010-01-28, 11:02 AM
woah thats thinking way to far ahead im just starting at lvl 2

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 11:11 AM
You should plan out your entire build no matter what level you start at. That way, you can keep an eye out for items or other bonuses that support your concept as the game unfolds.

AkazilliaDeNaro
2010-01-28, 11:19 AM
that is just like an i win stratagy
you play to win instead of playing to have fun

Eldariel
2010-01-28, 11:20 AM
that is just like an i win stratagy
you play to win instead of playing to have fun

Huh? Where'd you get that from? Surely you can have fun even if your character is strong. I thought the point of the game was roleplaying anyways?

Cyclocone
2010-01-28, 11:24 AM
that is just like an i win stratagy
you play to win instead of playing to have fun

Pssst! Stormwind Fallacy (http://mtgsalvation.com/928-at-the-gathering-the-stormwind-fallacy-teflon-redux.html).

Bayar
2010-01-28, 11:38 AM
that is just like an i win stratagy
you play to win instead of playing to have fun

You have more fun when you are not dead, or complaining that those 12 levels of paladin gave you jack **** compared to paladin X / PrC Y.

Magnor Criol
2010-01-28, 11:38 AM
that is just like an i win stratagy
you play to win instead of playing to have fun

It's in how you look at it.

If you view your plan as "okay I have to get X items and Y bonuses and take Z feats here" then yes, you're stewing it down to its mechanical framework and that takes the fun out of it (in a roleplaying-focused game, anyhow).

BUT, if you instead view it as "Little Timmeh always wanted to grow up to learn to use his powerful magics to help his friends, and was always on the lookout for new skills to learn or items to wield that would help him help them," voila! suddenly you've put an in-character, roleplaying aspect to it.

They're not saying you need to plan out all 20 levels of your character in detail right now. Simply have an idea for the direction you're heading and what you'd need to get there, and what will help you on the way, and then keep your character's eyes peeled for those sorts of things in the game. It's entirely reasonable your character could have heard of a Ring of Wizardry, for instance, or a Robe of the Archmagi or a Belt of Battle or what have you, and be interested in finding out more about them.

Eldariel
2010-01-28, 12:03 PM
It's in how you look at it.

If you view your plan as "okay I have to get X items and Y bonuses and take Z feats here" then yes, you're stewing it down to its mechanical framework and that takes the fun out of it (in a roleplaying-focused game, anyhow).

BUT, if you instead view it as "Little Timmeh always wanted to grow up to learn to use his powerful magics to help his friends, and was always on the lookout for new skills to learn or items to wield that would help him help them," voila! suddenly you've put an in-character, roleplaying aspect to it.

They're not saying you need to plan out all 20 levels of your character in detail right now. Simply have an idea for the direction you're heading and what you'd need to get there, and what will help you on the way, and then keep your character's eyes peeled for those sorts of things in the game. It's entirely reasonable your character could have heard of a Ring of Wizardry, for instance, or a Robe of the Archmagi or a Belt of Battle or what have you, and be interested in finding out more about them.

An added point to this is that prestige classes, things that definitely work best for defining a character's specific capabilities (especially in a matter like buffing, for which War Weaver is perfect), require things to enter them so the game design forces you to plan things out ahead if you are to get your character where you envision him.

Ditto
2010-01-28, 12:11 PM
Here's Logic Ninja's guide to Wizarding (http://web.archive.org/web/20080611002436/http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500), which stresses support over damage. Everything you need from start to finish.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-28, 12:15 PM
Wait, you ask for the "best" support class, and then complain when people optimize? That doesn't even make sense.


An added point to this is that prestige classes, things that definitely work best for defining a character's specific capabilities (especially in a matter like buffing, for which War Weaver is perfect), require things to enter them so the game design forces you to plan things out ahead if you are to get your character where you envision him.
This is a pretty key point. Not planning out your character gimps his fluff as well as his crunch, in 3.5. One of the more notable failings of the system, to my mind.

Optimator
2010-01-28, 05:34 PM
Archivist.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-28, 08:19 PM
that is just like an i win stratagy
you play to win instead of playing to have fun
One typically plays a game both by trying to win and in order to have fun. The process of trying to win may itself be fun whether one wins or not. Alternately or in addition, winning may be fun. But attempting to achieve the victory condition is normal gameplay.

I mean, you could move your pieces around in accordance with the rules of chess without trying to put your opponent's king in checkmate, and maybe even have fun doing it, but it would be an unusual approach to the activity.

Dungeons & Dragons does not have an official victory condition, but that just means that you set your own objectives. "Make it to the highest level I can", "Acquire as much treasure as I can", "Keep everyone in the party alive", "Achieve my character's goals", "Play an effective support character", and "Play a purely support character" are all possible objectives. But whatever objectives a player adopts, he's probably going to have fun by trying to achieve his objectives. Else what's the point in having them?

Thurbane
2010-01-28, 08:27 PM
A Sorcerer who can spam buffing spells can be a good support character.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-28, 08:30 PM
that is just like an i win stratagy
you play to win instead of playing to have fun

Very few people find characters that are useless/dead to be fun.

If you build a character that is too powerful, you can always dial back the lethality a notch. This is generally known as good sportsmanship. If you build a character that is worthless, dialing the power up is called cheating.

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 09:51 PM
that is just like an i win stratagy
you play to win instead of playing to have fun

Then why the hell are you asking for "the best" anything if you don't want us to help you do that?

Runestar
2010-01-28, 10:14 PM
In all fairness, he said "best class to play as support", as in "most ideal" and not "Give me the best build".

I think he simply meant a straight class to be played with minimal twinking.

nargbop
2010-01-28, 10:42 PM
Wizard / Warweaver / Spellguard of Silverymoon

Specifically, you get to use Personal spells on your friends through Warweaver tapestry. Use Arcane Disciple and similar methods to get some good personal spells (Divine Might, Surge of Fortune, etc). Note : you can only use spells that specifically grant hp or bonuses on saves. So not all spells can be used.

If your DM is insane and allows cross-setting material, take Recaster from Races of Eberron. I like dropping a Quickened Maximized Cure Light Wounds on everyone in the tapestry, then follow up with the most effective personal buff I can muster.

Akal Saris
2010-01-29, 12:49 AM
In all fairness, he said "best class to play as support", as in "most ideal" and not "Give me the best build".

I think he simply meant a straight class to be played with minimal twinking.

Yeah, that was the impression I got as well - I don't think he deserves the attacks he got for his response, and he probably doesn't need crazy spellguard/war weaver cheese either. I'm not saying that's not a terrific combo though.

With that out of the way, my recommendation for a good support character is still cleric or wizard. For a very simple wizard build, go Transmuter 3/Master Specialist 10 (Master specialist is from complete mage). It's simple and good enough for most games - after master specialist you might want to try a more complex PrC, like war weaver.

Good wizard support spells from core:
1st: Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Mage Armor (cast it on the monk!), Grease
2nd: Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Glitterdust
3rd: Haste, Magic Circle against Evil, Fly, Heroism, Greater Magic Weapon, Slow, Stinking Cloud
4th: Mass Enlarge Person, Fear, Black Tentacles

Tyndmyr
2010-01-29, 08:35 AM
People who invoke the stormwind fallacy...especially those who do so with the idea that there is a single specific way to have fun, deserve the criticism and contradiction that will inevitibly follow.

ken-do-nim
2010-01-29, 01:03 PM
I would warn against frequent use of "always on" class features, like the Marshal or Dragon Shaman's aura, and (essentially) the Bard's music, which improve your damage or abilities by a certain increment. From a metagame perspective, this tends to just make the DM push up the difficulty of every encounter by the same increment. (Although a smart Bard can solve this problem by saving his music uses for important/difficult battles, even if he has tons of uses per day to use them in every battle and your other party members complain). So I would argue that the best support classes tend to be the full casters who choose to use buff, healing, battlefield control, and toolbox spells. They can pick and choose their power level as the game dictates.

That's so ... disturbing. You're right of course and thanks for pointing it out, and I will heretofore resolve as DM never to fall into that trap.

Kantolin
2010-01-29, 01:09 PM
I would warn against frequent use of "always on" class features, like the Marshal

That's actually something I hadn't thought of. Poor Marshal. ;_;

That's actually a little disconcerting to me in general, since I love buffers and never really thought about that fact.

Anyway, on the topic itself, I also am fond of wizards. War weaver is a great class which helps your buffs hit the entire party, but wizards just generally have great options (Displacement, Haste). If you're good, you can also glance at the Book of Exalted Deeds for some gems, but they may be pretty powerful.

Optimystik
2010-01-29, 01:33 PM
That's so ... disturbing. You're right of course and thanks for pointing it out, and I will heretofore resolve as DM never to fall into that trap.

Is it really a trap though?

If the encounters scale up when you have a buffer, then a) the game stays challenging, and b) the buffer must now be protected, because losing his buffs can be catastrophic for the entire party. Dispel and Counterspell protection become more important, positioning becomes more important due to auras and emanations, and so on.

I'm not saying the GM should negate the buffer's benefits entirely, but having the party rely on the buffer a bit more isn't necessarily a bad thing. This is why Leaders come in so handy in 4e.

Ashiel
2010-01-29, 04:17 PM
Despite what Person_Man said (which is probably very true), if you want to have a lot of fun just being a walking party buff, here's a few ideas for it (and a suggested build for it.

Take 2 levels of Dragon Shaman. You gain three auras. One grants a +2 bonus to all spot/listen/initiative checks. One grants fast healing 1 up to 1/2 hit points. One grants a +1 bonus to attack damage. Walk around with the 1st aura, swap to the 2nd aura (a swift action) during the fight, and afterwords switch to the healing one to get your party back up to 1/2 HP before using healing spells.

Take three levels of Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) (the CG paladin). This will net you Detect Evil, Divine Grace, Aura of Resolve (immunity to compulsions and your aura has +4 versus compulsion), and Divine Health (immunity to disease). This gives you another aura, and also allows you to keep detect evil up when not in combat which can notice enemies who find themselves in the 60ft cone (it goes through thin barriers too). The divine health and compulsion immunity helps you take care of the party when everyone is diseased and prevents you from getting dominated.

Take three levels in Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) (the Chaotic Bard). You get bard-song and a the summon nature's ally I-VI spells on your spell list (which will allow you to summon unicorns to heal your party).

Take the rest of your levels in Cleric with the Magic and Nobility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#nobilityDomain) which rounds out your character with the ability to use magic items as a wizard of 1/2 your cleric level, and gives you a 1/day spell-like party buff which is pretty decent, especially with a high charisma.

This ends you at Dragon Shaman 2 / Paladin of Freedom 3 / Bard 3 / Cleric 12. It's not the most powerful of classes, and you will be very reliant on spell-trigger items such as wands and staffs for much of your spell-casting, but you have a very wide range of options with those spells (since both your caster level and your maximum spells per day is low). It's a fun build however because you get the following:

- Aura of Insight (+2 init/spot/listen)
- Aura of Power (+1 weapon damage)
- Aura of Vitality (fast healing 1 up to 1/2 Hp)
- Aura of Resolve (Immune to Compulsion, Aura grants +4 vs Compulsions)
- Bardsong
- The ability to cast any spell on a wizard spell-list from items.
- The ability to cast any spell on a cleric spell-list from items.
- The ability to cast most bard spells plus summon nature's ally I-VI from items.
- Immune to Disease
- Detect Evil
- Divine Grace


You can further specialize by picking up feats. There's a feat that buffs healing from the Complete Divine. Also, anything that works with wands is good, and maybe use magic device (bard + high charisma) to get any other sort of buff magic you might have forgotten.

The whole build isn't a power-gamer's build. You're probably not going to do much with it, but you really are a walking buff-machine. Also, I recommend x/day wands (a 5/day wand costs the same as a 50 charge wand according to the magic item creation rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)), which I highly recommend for spells you plan to cast fairly often. 10/day wands are twice as costly as 50 charge wands, but if you will cast them repeatedly it will eventually pay for itself.

Also, staffs for the same reasons, except with higher level spells like heal and mass heal, which are exceptionally important to a great support character so they can heal the party.

Also, this character can be a blast to play even if you play them completely pacifistic (as I believe was mentioned earlier). Give it a try, and make sure your DM will allow you to purchase wands and items at the appropriate population centers. Here's the GP limit on item prices based on town size, for you and your DMs convenience:

- Thorp = 40gp
- Hamlet = 100gp
- Village = 200gp
- Small Town = 800gp
- Large Town = 3,000gp
- Small City = 15,000gp
- Large City = 40,000gp
- Metropolis = 100,000gp