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RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-28, 02:56 PM
Question,

I've been searching for a way to Stun undead and other things that are immune to stunning... is there any such way?
Any 3.5 WOTC book.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 03:01 PM
Question,

I've been searching for a way to Stun undead and other things that are immune to stunning... is there any such way?
Any 3.5 WOTC book.

It's called Dazing them. Unfortunately, there's no way to turn Stunning Fist into Dazing Fist.

IIRC, there's a Feat or ACF that messes with the Undead's immunity to Stunning in one of the more recent books.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-28, 03:03 PM
you don't happen to know what book or what class?

Starbuck_II
2010-01-28, 03:06 PM
It's called Dazing them. Unfortunately, there's no way to turn Stunning Fist into Dazing Fist.


There should be.

It isn't a power boost (Dazing doesn't deny dex, etc), but it is more useful (few are immune).

Back on main topic: pain touch, etc in Complete Warrior change the effect from stun to sickened/nausated. Freezing Lifeblood= paralyze. But none of those effect undead sadly.

Serpant Fang increases reach for an attack in exchange for Stunning Fist attempt. But that just enhances attacking.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 03:10 PM
you don't happen to know what book or what class?

Hmm...

It's between CC, Exemplars of Evil, and about two others (not CS or CM though). Sadly, I have no exact idea.

The old CO boards at WotC may have something about optimizing Stunning Fist. It may have a location for you.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-28, 03:14 PM
I'm trying to build a character around stunning fist and i need to find a way to be usefull against things that aren't stunnable... or find a way to make them stunnable... I'd prefer not to use cheese like polymorph any object or any thing like that...

the only thing right now i have to combat undead is a disruptive weapon... doesn't realy help much...

or i could use firey fists... eaither way not that great.

arguskos
2010-01-28, 03:15 PM
Well... why don't you just annihilate them with your fists of +5 awesome? I mean, if you can't stun them, just beat them into a fine powder.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 03:20 PM
I'm trying to build a character around stunning fist and i need to find a way to be usefull against things that aren't stunnable... or find a way to make them stunnable... I'd prefer not to use cheese like polymorph any object or any thing like that...

the only thing right now i have to combat undead is a disruptive weapon... doesn't realy help much...

or i could use firey fists... eaither way not that great.

There's a couple of feats that key off of Stunning that work great against Undead.

Pharaoh's Fist (the feat, not the user), Serpent Strike, a handful of others. If I wasn't AFB, I'd be of more help.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-28, 03:21 PM
Isn't Serpant's Strike poison and Undead are immune?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 03:24 PM
Isn't Serpant's Strike poison and Undead are immune?

True. AFB, so I can't look it up that easily.

Telonius
2010-01-28, 03:29 PM
A Greater Truedeath Crystal attached to a Ki Focus weapon might be helpful, depending on the wording of the feats. (Expensive, I know, but it's the only thing coming to mind).

EDIT: There's another crystal that makes Constructs vulnerable to crits, too - Demolition, I think. I don't believe there are any for oozes; though I'm also AFB, so I can't check the Magic Item Compendium.

Person_Man
2010-01-28, 04:23 PM
Ways to Daze enemies:

Shield Slam
Anvil of Thunder
Boomerang Daze
Ragewild Fighter
Killoren Smite
Devoted Inquisitor
Cabinet Trickster
Dire Flail Smash
Ironsoul Forgemaster (living enemies only)
Arcane Focus soulmeld (living enemies only)
Incarnum Blast invocation (living enemies only, alignment restrictions)
A few magic items I can't remember.


Freezing the Lifeblood turns Stunning Fist into a Paralyze attack, which also doesn't effect undead.

I would add that there is a wide variety of equipment that specifically kills undead. If you know that they might be a problem, then pick some up.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-28, 04:26 PM
Is it just vulnerability to crits that allows stunning?


as of right now my ruff build is something like this:

human
monk 2/Fighter 6

1.
hb. ability focus (stunning fist)
mb1. stunning fist
mb2. combat reflexs
3. extra stunning
3f. weakening touch
6. Pharaohs fist
f6


Person_Man:
ehh True... I realy just want a build that capitalises on stunning fist attempts ...



all:

Actualy does any one have any good stunning fist builds?

Person_Man
2010-01-28, 04:59 PM
Actualy does any one have any good stunning fist builds?

Well, its a very hard thing to optimize. You have limited uses, you have to make a successful unarmed melee attack, a failed attack wastes a use, it allows a Fort Save, the Fort Save has a Wis based DC, and whole categories of enemies are immune to it.

The best combo I can think of is to take Freezing the Lifeblood (to make it a Paralyze attack) + Contagious Paralysis (Libris Mortis) + some method of Bull Rush (Knockback, Brutal Surge weapon, etc). That should let you paralyze multiple enemies per round - though the math behind it is pretty shaky unless you also have a debuff combo running.

Boci
2010-01-28, 05:03 PM
The best combo I can think of is to take Freezing the Lifeblood (to make it a Paralyze attack) + Contagious Paralysis (Libris Mortis) + some method of Bull Rush (Knockback, Brutal Surge weapon, etc). That should let you paralyze multiple enemies per round -

Unarmed swordsage 8 / Monk 2 / Shadow Sun Ninja 10?


though the math behind it is pretty shaky unless you also have a debuff combo running.

That's what other party members are for. Wizard hits them with chained fell frighten black moil stolen breath or something, rogue uses an ambush feat to lower their saves, ect.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-28, 05:39 PM
Well, its a very hard thing to optimize. You have limited uses, you have to make a successful unarmed melee attack, a failed attack wastes a use, it allows a Fort Save, the Fort Save has a Wis based DC, and whole categories of enemies are immune to it.

The best combo I can think of is to take Freezing the Lifeblood (to make it a Paralyze attack) + Contagious Paralysis (Libris Mortis) + some method of Bull Rush (Knockback, Brutal Surge weapon, etc). That should let you paralyze multiple enemies per round - though the math behind it is pretty shaky unless you also have a debuff combo running.

freezing the life blood i was planning on adding as well as the AOE stun feat.

though that is a pritty amusing combo...

Boci: I wish the people i played with optimised more... most of them play blaster wizards and two weapon fighting warriors.

jiriku
2010-01-28, 05:47 PM
While not a way to stun undead, Touch of Golden Ice is a feat from BoED that poisons victims with a poison-that-is-not-a-poison-and-only-affects-evil-creatures-so-it's-not-evil-to-use-it. Since it's "not a poison" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), it should affect undead, thus providing you with a backup plan for that creature type.

Boci
2010-01-28, 05:49 PM
it should affect undead, thus providing you with a backup plan for that creature type.

Is specifically states that undead are affected. They even take 1 additional point of ability damage from it. The static DC means that eventually you just have to pray they will roll a natural one, but its a decent feat, albeit with some annoying rp baggage.



Boci: I wish the people i played with optimised more... most of them play blaster wizards and two weapon fighting warriors.

Thats a shame. Is ToB allowed? If so you just have to hope they do not roll high on their save and be porepared that the combo is not going to work, unless you are allowed to take leadership, but that is doubtful.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-28, 05:50 PM
Disruption works on bludgeoning weapons. Your fists are bludgeoning weapons.
Think about it.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-28, 06:14 PM
Is specifically states that undead are affected. They even take 1 additional point of ability damage from it. The static DC means that eventually you just have to pray they will roll a natural one, but its a decent feat, albeit with some annoying rp baggage.



Thats a shame. Is ToB allowed? If so you just have to hope they do not roll high on their save and be porepared that the combo is not going to work, unless you are allowed to take leadership, but that is doubtful.

Tob is allowed. However it holds an odd stigma with the players and gm... if for any reason i where to pull off any impressive damage they imidiatly think its over powered... even if a barbarian could do the same...
Example last session during 1 of the 3 fights i did 22 damage with my warblade(we are level 3, im using a +1 trident no power attack) and they cryed overpowered... so yes yes i can, though the unarmed sword sage varient isn't allowed.

Ravens_cry:ya i was thinking of diping kensi for disruption and the stunny weapon thing.

Boci
2010-01-28, 06:30 PM
Tob is allowed. However it holds an odd stigma with the players and gm... if for any reason i where to pull off any impressive damage they imidiatly think its over powered... even if a barbarian could do the same...
Example last session during 1 of the 3 fights i did 22 damage with my warblade(we are level 3, im using a +1 trident no power attack) and they cryed overpowered... so yes yes i can, though the unarmed sword sage varient isn't allowed.

Well then go monk 2 / swordsage 3 / Shadow Sun Ninja 10 / Swordsage 5 or kensei. Use weapons, and at least the monk levels will help you in emergencies where you are unarmed.

Focus on setting sun maneuvers, since they generally do not deal much damage. Use counters over boosts and grab freeze the life blood and then use your highest level throwing level maneuver the spread the paralysis. If fighting something you know have a hige fort save use blood letting strike lower their fort.

A way to improve build, but may be considered too cheesy in your group: Obviosly you will want to take shadow blade and weapon finesse, that should be fine. You should try and get a fey craft weapon to save a feat, they are from the DMG II.

Also, if your DM allows leadership there are some nice ways to debuff with followers, but I'm guessing they do not.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-28, 06:45 PM
see i wasn't sure if i should go like

Monk/cleric/cleric monk prc thing
or
monk/wizard/enlightend monk...

i think the bit of spell casting may help eaither as a debuff or to add other ways to stun or to buff...


psionics is another question though i don't know how good the stunny stuff is with that.

Boci
2010-01-28, 06:53 PM
see i wasn't sure if i should go like

Monk/cleric/cleric monk prc thing
or
monk/wizard/enlightend monk...

I'd go monk 1 / wizard 4 / enlightened fist 10, arcane spells are better IMO. Take carmiac monk, or what ever that feat is called. Black moil fell fright stolen breath is a 4th level spell that will inflict the sicken and shacken condition on your opponent, no save or touch attack required. Blood wind should allow you to stun at range.

Necrotic skull bomb is a swift action spell that bestows negative energy levels on a failed fortitude save.

There may even be some spells that alter a creatures type, whoch could help you stun the unstunable. All I've found so far is aberate, which doesn't work, but there might be more (caster must be fiend and it gives you a fortitude save).

Xenogears
2010-01-28, 08:14 PM
If you want to boost the DC for Stunning Fist you need more Wis. A single level of Shiba Protecter PrC from OA gives you Wis to Attk and Damage. I think it requires Iron Will (The Otyugh Hole gives this if thats allowed), Mobility, and Expertise IIRC. Combined with Monk your Wisdom now gives you AC, Attack, and Damage. Take two levels of Paladin and the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium for Wis to Saves. Now you can afford to dump everything but Wis and Con. That should make the DC's an auto win on anything but a Boss type.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-28, 08:30 PM
Ability Focus also boosts the DC.

Xenogears
2010-01-28, 08:58 PM
Ability Focus also boosts the DC.

By only 2 though. There is also a Combat Style in OA that increases Stunning Fist and all other pressure point attacks Dcs by +2. Requires a bunch of feats to qualify for though IIRC.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-29, 09:55 AM
ya i saw the OA feat.. wasn't sure how good it is.

i wonder if there is any thing else from OA.

Person_Man
2010-01-29, 10:02 AM
While not a way to stun undead, Touch of Golden Ice is a feat from BoED that poisons victims with a poison-that-is-not-a-poison-and-only-affects-evil-creatures-so-it's-not-evil-to-use-it. Since it's "not a poison" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), it should affect undead, thus providing you with a backup plan for that creature type.

I thought that Undead were immune to ability damage? I guess I have to re-read Touch of Golden Ice.

Anywho, if you're trying to avoid ToB because of the stigma, what about Binder, Psychic Warrior, Incarnate, Totemist, or Glaivelock. Each has interesting "I hit you and something happens" effects, without being game breaking. Or are you wedded to Monk?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-29, 10:09 AM
I thought that Undead were immune to ability damage? I guess I have to re-read Touch of Golden Ice.

Anywho, if you're trying to avoid ToB because of the stigma, what about Binder, Psychic Warrior, Incarnate, Totemist, or Glaivelock. Each has interesting "I hit you and something happens" effects, without being game breaking. Or are you wedded to Monk?

no its not even monks i would play a strait fighter that would have stunning fist abilities. etc


Edit: I just realy liked stunning fist and pharos fist

Malbordeus
2010-01-29, 10:16 AM
theres a spell that nerfs undead immunities, but things i would suggest for your build include -

Versatile unarmed strike
Water splitting stone
Improved natural attack (unarmed)
Ki Blast

none help with the stunning, but you should find all useful against undead and other creatures.

Human Paragon 3
2010-01-29, 10:17 AM
You might want to look at this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112552)

It begins with the forum bashing the OP for daring to play a monk, and considering multiclassing with paladin, but somewhere around page 2 a very good stunning fist build is outlined that will remain effective against undead due to the paladin multiclass.

EDIT: See posts 41+42

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-29, 10:23 AM
theres a spell that nerfs undead immunities, but things i would suggest for your build include -

Versatile unarmed strike
Water splitting stone
Improved natural attack (unarmed)
Ki Blast

none help with the stunning, but you should find all useful against undead and other creatures.

ehh watersplitting stone.. is kinda meh...

I love ki blast but i've heard its terrible... only 3d6+wis dmg.


Edit:

Improved Stunning Fist (boost DC by 2) where is that from?

does decisive stike boost the dc of stunning fist?

OMG i can't belive i forgot sun school bagh feel like a failure.

I was thinking about changing the race to like a killorian or something to give me smites against things i can't stun.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-29, 10:31 AM
Pharaoh's Fist.

DM: you encounter a zombie! Your stunning fist is worthless
Monk: I'll use Pharaoh's Fist
DM: What's Pharaoh's Fist do?
Monk: He uses Jaya Balard, taskmage. Massive fire damage for everyone.
DM: Not fistbeard beardfist?
Monk: Why would he use a monk I'm already a monk having two monks would just be silly.

Human Paragon 3
2010-01-29, 10:52 AM
By improved stunning fist, I think he actually meant Ability Focus: Stunning Fist. Ability focus just adds +2 to the DC of an ability.

Yes, Decisive Strike does boost the DC of Stunning Fist. By +2 if i'm not mistaken. It's an alternative class feature found under the Monk entry in PHBII.

Note that the key to this build is Wisdom SADness. Just multiclassing pali/monk won't do you much good without the support feats outlined in the build.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-29, 10:53 AM
By improved stunning fist, I think he actually meant Ability Focus: Stunning Fist. Ability focus just adds +2 to the DC of an ability.

Yes, Decisive Strike does boost the DC of Stunning Fist. By +2 if i'm not mistaken. It's an alternative class feature found under the Monk entry in PHBII.

ya its one of my favorites to use instead of flurry... especaily cuz theres no limit to the amount of times you can use it.

Human Paragon 3
2010-01-29, 10:56 AM
Another cool trick with decisive strike is to use it with shuriken. It doesn't specify melee attacks, so you can stack on modifiers (like holy sword and whatever else) and deal fair damage even at range, usually not an option for monk. Tack on ranged smite for extra goodness.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-29, 10:58 AM
Another cool trick with decisive strike is to use it with shuriken. It doesn't specify melee attacks, so you can stack on modifiers (like holy sword and whatever else) and deal fair damage even at range, usually not an option for monk. Tack on ranged smite for extra goodness.

hu... never knew that.. wish there was a way to make a bow a monk weapon.

Xenogears
2010-01-29, 12:17 PM
According to Person Mans X stat to Y bonus thread there is a PrC called Dragon Warrior that adds Wis to HP. It's apparently from Dragon Magazine Issue 298. If you could swing that you could literally dump every stat but wisdom. Youd be more SAD than most wizards...

Make it a strongheart halfling and get Yondalla's Senses and even Initiative is based on Wisdom...

Person_Man
2010-01-29, 12:35 PM
According to Person Mans X stat to Y bonus thread there is a PrC called Dragon Warrior that adds Wis to HP. It's apparently from Dragon Magazine Issue 298. If you could swing that you could literally dump every stat but wisdom. Youd be more SAD than most wizards...

Make it a strongheart halfling and get Yondalla's Senses and even Initiative is based on Wisdom...

A non-Dragon mag way to get Wisdom to hit points is through Vigor and/or Enhanced Elan Resilience, either of which will allow you to spend Power Points (which can be gained from his Wis if you get Psychic Warrior powers) to gain hit point or prevent damage. Sir Wisdom the SAD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7194308&postcount=3) is a Wis SAD build you might want to look at.

The most hit points you can get from something other then high Con comes from the Vitality Belt soulmeld, which is meldshaper level * invested essentia, and/or Necrocarnate with Azure Toughness (infinite essentia abuse + bonus hit points = to essentia). But either basically requires you to be an Incarnate.

Draz74
2010-01-29, 12:43 PM
If Tome of Battle is allowed but high damage is considered overpowered (:smallsigh:), then just make a Tome of Battle build that does all kinds of crazy stuff but has no damage-boosting capabilities.

Stunning Fist is an excellent starting place, actually. Monk 2/Swordsage 8/Shadow Sun Ninja with Falling Sun Attack, Distant Horizon, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Ability Focus feats. Lots of Setting Sun maneuvers -- Throws and the excellent Baffling Defense being my favorite.