PDA

View Full Version : [4e-DMing] Overpopulating the world with Adventurers



Anonomuss
2010-01-28, 04:42 PM
Ok, so, when I was staring my campaign, I wanted to avoid the tired (albeit awesome) trope of the party starting in a tavern, and being approached by a wizened old man with some magical item he'd left out of his reach on a shelf he'd long forgotten about.

So, instead, the party started as members of an Adventuring Guild, sent on a routine assignment to an isolated town, in which they sought out a wizened old man who had a job for them, to find some magical item he'd left out of his reach on a shelf he'd long forgotten about.

However, it's left me in a position where they were simply one group amongst many. I'm worried that it'll be hard to stimulate that sort of environment as they progress up in levels. Currently the highest level members of the Guild are about lvl 8 each, developed over about 60 years. It's in an area of high density, but low level encounters.

However, the players are currently lvl 3, but progressing in levels rapidly. This is largely due to the fact that there has been a rise in the numbers of higher level enemies, as divine powers have begun to spin wheels that will change the nature of the world itself.

Do you think this makes sense, or could the most ingenious members of the playground provide another solution? Or does it not make sense at all? Or should they be somewhere in the Paragon tier?

Hal
2010-01-28, 04:51 PM
Could you rephrase the question? I'm not sure I understand what it is you're asking.

Godskook
2010-01-28, 04:53 PM
I don't see a problem in your proposed problem....

Dervag
2010-01-28, 05:03 PM
Hmm.

What you really have to ask yourself is: how would an "adventuring guild" work? What would its relationship with the surrounding communities be? What kind of people would join it? Would stay in it? Would run it?

I mean, if they're organized into a guild, that implies an economic structure- people routinely hire their members, and they have formalized price structures and by-laws set by the guild.

There are two possibilities:

1) The Adventurers Guild is a centralized organization, with a headquarters and a large number of "adventurers" who are actually employees of the guild.
That means that the Adventurers' Guild is basically a group of mercenaries-for-hire, right? The odds are that there won't be too many clerics dedicated to the service of a god in the place; for sure there won't be any of the classic D&D paladin. Some of the members may be benevolent, sure, but a lot of them will be the kind of shady "will kill for money" types you'd expect to see in a mercenary organization.

Now, how much standardization is there? If I hire a group of mercenaries from the Adventurers' Guild, what can I rely on them to be able to do? How do I know the people I'm hiring are tough enough to do the job? For that matter, how does the Guild know how much to charge me unless it's sure how tough the job will be? Do Guild employees have a right to keep any random treasure they find on the job, or are they salaried employees who have to give the loot to their boss?

2)The Adventurers' Guild is a loose organization, which basically anyone can join; members have to find their own work.
In this case, being a guild member may be more of a licensing requirement- it's a way to tell the difference between the socially accepted "adventurer" running around with a sword and a big pile of gold he got by looting an ancient ruin and the unaccepted "bandit" running around with a sword and a big pile of gold he got by looting a caravan.

Anyone can be a guild member, in effect, as long as they don't do things that would reduce them to the status of an outlaw. Being a guild member is just a way of showing that you're not an outlaw, so that the local police don't run you out of town on general suspicion of being suspicious.
_________

In either case, some questions arise. How do local officials (and regional rulers) view the guild? People who are responsible for enforcing laws generally don't like having heavily armed strangers running around, especially if trouble tends to follow them. Even in parts of the world where violence is common, local officials will tend to try to stop it from happening in their own community, and will go after people they see as threatening the peace.

For instance, the legendary "Gunfight at the OK Corral" in the American Wild West era was fought between the town's law enforcement and a group of outsiders who refused to turn in their guns at the city limits, as per regulations.

So from the sheriff's point of view, an Adventurer's Guild is a professional organization of troublemakers and mercenaries. From the monarch's point of view, they're a potential training ground for people who could be hired to oppose or even overthrow them. Not good.

So while being a guild member may give you a license to ride around with a sword, that doesn't make you popular, and you may run into trouble caused by political wrestling between the guild and its enemies.
_____

Also, how does the guild view freelancers? Most guilds were very hostile to that sort of thing, even to the point of violently running competitors out of town. What happens if the PCs are directed to go tighten the screws on some freelancer who's been trying to muscle in on their business... only to find the stereotypical group of knights in shining armor, riding around wronging rights?

shadowmage
2010-01-28, 05:04 PM
The same here. Basically just because your an adventure, does not mean your a hero. Your party are Heroes destined for great things. the others are adventures that have gone out and saved a town or a city. While your party is destined to save the world and being so will hit just the right "problems" that will propel them to greatness that would just kill other adventuring groups.

Which I would play up as they get closer to the higher ranks of the adventuring guild. "Hey guys ummmm we lost 5 groups going out to explore this cave. Could you handle it? My back is acting up from that time me and the other leaders went and fought Big bad Orc Boss number 3, or I would lead the others out to handle it." Also they could once hitting the Paragon tier start their own Guild or even have the current guild leadership take on that cave get wiped out and the party steps up to clear the cave and save the leader just in time for him to pass on the guild to them and die in their arms.

Totally Guy
2010-01-28, 05:04 PM
I included a large number of adventurer types in my 9 session long 4E campaign.

I remember all the arguments back when it was first released. "4E is like an MMORPG". So that's what I did. I had a big dungeon where monsters spawned and dropped gold and loads of adventurers showed up for loot and XP!

But that was only the surface.

Underneath that there was an ancient conspiracy that had led to a single paladin, trapped in a small control room.

He had killed the lich but had no way out and the column, housing the phylactery, supported the entire city. The control room was the liches defences, he could populate the above dungeon with monsters. The paladin saw the dungeon had been breached, assumed it was the liches followers. The lich had no such followers, but still had a very minor influence over over the monster summons to the floors above, as the paladin used the magical instruments the lich was able to pervert the spell... he'd include a few coins as well.

That should encourage the adventurers to come deeper into the dungeon, and finally kill this paladin for him.

The players were unique in that they could see there was a bigger picture than the one presented.

DabblerWizard
2010-01-28, 05:05 PM
Ok, so, when I was staring my campaign, I wanted to avoid the tired (albeit awesome) trope of the party starting in a tavern, and being approached by a wizened old man with some magical item he'd left out of his reach on a shelf he'd long forgotten about.

So, instead, the party started as members of an Adventuring Guild, sent on a routine assignment to an isolated town, in which they sought out a wizened old man who had a job for them, to find some magical item he'd left out of his reach on a shelf he'd long forgotten about.

However, it's left me in a position where they were simply one group amongst many. I'm worried that it'll be hard to stimulate that sort of environment as they progress up in levels. Currently the highest level members of the Guild are about lvl 8 each, developed over about 60 years. It's in an area of high density, but low level encounters.

However, the players are currently lvl 3, but progressing in levels rapidly. This is largely due to the fact that there has been a rise in the numbers of higher level enemies, as divine powers have begun to spin wheels that will change the nature of the world itself.

Do you think this makes sense, or could the most ingenious members of the playground provide another solution? Or does it not make sense at all? Or should they be somewhere in the Paragon tier?

The short answer: What you're doing is fine.

A longer answer:

From what I can understand, you're trying to achieve verisimilitude in your campaign world.

In other words, at least as far as the presence of monsters is concerned, you want to add a dash of realism and rationality, instead of relying on illogical assumptions commonly used in fantasy settings, such as, there are endless amounts of monsters, but they never take over human kind.

Other problems you might be considering: Why is it that only PCs end up attaining super high levels, if there are so many monsters out there to kill? If all it takes is killing monsters, couldn't many other brave / foolish people gain a decent number of levels through luck and determination?

I remember that kind of thing being mentioned in Final Fantasy 2 /4. Early on in the game, in the first scene, it was commented on, that there are sure a lot of monsters out there in the world. Unfortunately, as far as I can remember, the game never really gave a satisfying answer as to why that was.

Your suggestion that divine forces are changing the world, is a perfectly acceptable way to explain the sudden rise in monsters in the area, as long as you flush out what you mean by "changing" and "divine forces".

Hazkali
2010-01-28, 05:05 PM
Not a 4E DM, but I'll try and answer in general terms.

On one hand, yes, you've got a good reason for the higher-level adventurers capping out at about 8th level, and a good reason for the PCs to be advancing at a quicker rate than previously.

However, if the Hero NPCs are fighting the rising numbers of higher-level monsters, then they too will be getting levels. I won't crunch the maths, but the higher level NPCs obviously will be advancing at a slower rate if they are undergoing similar challenges. This can be countered by saying that the very highest level NPCs have moved to more of an administrative and governing role in the Guild, which brings great political power but means that they don't have the same opportunities for continued advancement.

I would say, however, that in a world with a concept of Heroes, that level 8 is quite a low cap for a "great hero". Based on 3.5, a level-up means facing about 14 (I think) "challenging" encounters. From the numbers given, you're taking ~7 years per level, so that's only two such "challenging" encounters per year. Given the definition of challenging (a drain on resources, usually some threat to life), this is hardly heroic!

My personal recommendation would be to up the level of the highest heroes to 10-15, but otherwise keep your fluff the same.

However, the level system, encounters and so on is very... odd... when thought through outside of the dungeon. One of the less well-thought-through parts.

In one of my campaigns, I had the idea of "soul caps", which were fundamental limits on the power of a soul. Breaking past 5th, 10th and 15th levels weren't just about acquiring XP, but also performing a great act "above and beyond". This way, you can have people who've been doing low-level fighting (your standard soldier archetype) who've peaked at a reasonable level without wondering where all the extra XP has gone.

The New Bruceski
2010-01-28, 05:49 PM
If I understand your situation you have a heroic tier adventurers guild, have made a change in the world, and are wondering how the guild will react to the change and to the PCs levelling quickly?

In the low-level world a high-level adventurer isn't noted for fighting off a dragon as much as he is for clearing a kobold warren. Numbers provide the challenge, and the top adventurers are probably bored, training others, or have let their abilities get sloppy. When the PCs start rapid improvement I would expect some jealousy and some encouragement, depending on the person. When they brought proof (or word reached the Guild) of greater monster threats some adventurers would step up to the challenge, while others may well hide. It would definitely shake up the organization.

With this I see the Guild becoming a support to the PCs, who manage to stick together against the trouble and thus take a prominent role. Other adventuring parties could scout areas, or find themselves splintered as half their members decide the risk is too great and leave. These splintered groups could provide interesting NPC interaction as the PCs help them find new members, or rescue the ones who got in over their heads.

As you move into the Paragon tier the PCs are becoming the shining example of the Guild in this new world. Some other adventurers may level up with them, but overall the Guild starts to serve much more explicitly as a home base and supplier for the PCs, with low-level members working to hold and protect cleared areas while the PCs look towards the cause of this issue.

Shardan
2010-01-28, 06:00 PM
it opens up the possibility of 'rivals'. your party and the NPC party are both hired to trek to the same ancient ruins to retrieve the same MacGuffin. (maybe by the same person even.) Rival parties sabotaging you (but not directly attacking, because that is strictly against guild laws)

Its an interesting idea, but the issue lies with execution. Don't cheese it up too much.. and I'd make the graduation point the step into Paragon. at that point, you're just too big for the guild board. (or maybe you get offered the special jobs that no ones been strong enough to handle, even.)

As far as monsters vs adventurers... I always figured attrition was the reason the world was never filled with high level NPC's... after all, how many people have had characters die accross the levels. NPC's would die at a faster rate. PC's are special. they are the few who have skills, abilities, destinies. They are Arnold not just another mook soldier.

Randel
2010-01-28, 09:28 PM
Here's an idea:

The vast majority of 'Adventurers' are young adults trying to get some quick money and experience (something to put on their resume) before they try getting a real job. Many of them are fresh out of whatever schooling they've gotten and the act of adventuring is almost seen as a rite of passage. If you go out and spend a year or so keeping the goblins and bugbears from attacking the city then you've made your mark as a member of society.


The city guards? They got their jobs after a year or two of adventuring to get the practice and recommendations for the job. The mages and shopkeepers each spent a year or so out there doing the odd jobs in dangerous areas, making connections, grabbing loot from beaten goblin bandits and collecting bounties on dangerous beasts.

If you didn't spend a year or two getting some 'real world experience' then your career opportunities are much slimmer (stuck with commoner jobs). There are fewer human bandits or thieves in this society since the whole adventuring guild thing is basically institutionalized banditry against all the monsterous races around the human settlements... plus, if you become a bandit then a whole bunch of adventurers will go after you to collect the reward on your head.


The society might not be the best, in fact it could be that the ruler is corrupt and sees the whole Adventurers Guild as a way to keep people satisfied (everyone wanting to get rich quick signs up a the Guild and gets jobs that are potentially dangerous but pay well. Keeps the crime organized on his side, lets him mess with all those monsterous civilizations that nobody likes, and gets all the weakling killed off).

Alot of the Adventurers are doing this because of the money and skills they get from it... ask any one of them and they'll tell you how much money they need to save up to get that house they want, what spell they will learn and then get a job at the mages guild, or once they do some great deed or get the right item they'll head back and propose to the girl they like.

So yeah, there are lots of low level adventurers... but the numbers start to drop off significantly at the higher levels. Mostly because quite a few adventurers die and more of them know when to quit and get other jobs or retire.

The ones who stay in the business are the ones who either really like going out, finding new things and killing stuff for money, ones who are bad at saving up money and are doing this to pay off debts, ones who are genuinely crazy and like killing stuff, or ones who have some kind of calling or vendetta that being an adventurer fills for them.

Swordgleam
2010-01-28, 10:05 PM
ones who are bad at saving up money and are doing this to pay off debts,

I like the whole idea, but that line in particular sparks an inspiration: gambling halls and brothels would surround the guilds, waiting to fleece returning adventurers. Some adventurers might end up as practically indentured servants, condemned to a life of adventuring to pay their debts.

Randel
2010-01-29, 12:15 AM
I like the whole idea, but that line in particular sparks an inspiration: gambling halls and brothels would surround the guilds, waiting to fleece returning adventurers. Some adventurers might end up as practically indentured servants, condemned to a life of adventuring to pay their debts.

Heh, yeah. That could be used as reason for the price of alot of things. In a normal economy when an adventurer hits the jackpot and comes back with a dragons hoard worth of gold then they throw the economy of a place out of whack when they spend it.

However, there are adventurer approved guild halls or hotels that cater to adventurers... maybe the hotels are classy (much better than the normal ones in town if there are any) and maybe they are free for adventurers (higher ranking members get special treatment, maybe because they pay guild membership fees or something).

But regardless, all the magic item shops and gambling halls and stuff that cater to adventurers act like high-powered sponges, soaking up all the excess money that rich adventurers run into.

Those rations that cost several silver? They are tasty M.R.E.s that the guild shop sells. Expensive food or equipment? Its all made by approved adventuring businesses. All those magic items that you can buy from their catalog but can only sell for half (or one fifth) the price? Its a huge monopoly set up to take your money.

The Adventurer Guild is set up both to have adventurers out there doing the dangerous job of clearing out monsters and to grab all the money they can from said monsters and adventurers. Why front an army you have to feed, train, and raise taxes for when you can get powerful people to go out and do stuff for you and you can find numerous ways to get money back from them!

Any payments that they Guild pays to the average adventurer for the various jobs they do is offset by membership fees, profit margins from selling equipment or magic items, collections from gambling halls and
"entertainment", and the price that various people pay the Guild to send people out to fight monsters.

So on average, the various villages and towns dont get their economies destabilized too much by adventurers because the average adventurer spends all their money at the guild or at businesses approved by the guild... and those businesses know how to shift the money around so it doesn't mess things up. When a dragon hoard comes in, the Adventurers Guild and the shops and brothels around it get filthy stinking rich while hardly anything reaches the marketplace and farmers nearby.

And of course, if they find that somebody gets some kind of game breaking economic shenanigans going on then the Guilds can find it out and put a stop to it. Don't steal from the magic idem shop, don't try to mass craft your own magic items and sell them (their arcane workplaces can make magic items cheaper and more effectively, the average adventurer can't match that. If you try to sell stuff you made then they quickly find out and tell you to stop because it cuts into their profit margins and you aren't out their killing monsters like a good little adventurer).



Heh, the Guilds are so good at setting things up to take money from adventurers that its been quite a while since anyone's even heard of a Hero donating any of their treasure to an actual charity.

Swordgleam
2010-01-29, 12:39 AM
However, there are adventurer approved guild halls or hotels that cater to adventurers... maybe the hotels are classy (much better than the normal ones in town if there are any) and maybe they are free for adventurers (higher ranking members get special treatment, maybe because they pay guild membership fees or something).

Classy hotels? These are ADVENTURERS. More likely, a few powerful merchants made a back-door deal with some nobles/politicians to pass a law that adventurers can only stay at approved inns - after all, you don't want a bunch of people with enchanted swords, huge egos and heightened reflexes drinking in bars with 4 HP peasants. It's just plain unsafe.

Adventurers need special lodgings, for their own safety (e.g., protecting their valuable weapons from thieves) and the safety of others. The fact that these lodgings cause ten times as much as a normal inn makes sense, when you factor in the extra guards, protective enchantments, occasional costly repairs, etc. Why, these generous innkeepers are hardly making a profit at all; they just do this as a service to the guild! Obviously.


Which explains why there's so few high-level adventurers: the people in charge of the guild subtly discourage that sort of thing, because they don't want anyone powerful enough to rock the boat. It caps out at level 8 because once you get around level 6, you just keep getting sent after goblins and kobolds and your rate of advancement slows to a crawl. Individuals who hire you privately to take on bigger problems suddenly find that merchants are unwilling to work with them, mercenaries have doubled their rates, and farmers are suspiciously out of grain.

Anonomuss
2010-01-29, 03:39 AM
Yeah, my main concerns were justifying the party's rapid growth compared to the rest of the guild. It's a 45-50 person guild, consisting of 5 lvl 8s, and the rest fall between about lvl3-5. The lvl 8s, dealt with the last major invasion of the area, but are aging now, although they're still going strong.

They act primarily as contractors for dealing with odd jobs, but are hired on a long-term contract with the adventurer's home base, to act as high level security. I saw the Guild idea as sort of like having a record label. They get approached by all the wannabe's who want to be famous and get rich, because they themselves were adventurers, and people are more likely to trust adventuring groups who come under a reliable charter. The guild itself sorts the wheat from the chaff, and distill it into working adventuring groups. Those who don't make the cut, make up most of the city's standard guard (Numbering between 70-100), or remain as back-ups for the larger militia (possibly double the number of the guard, only in times of extreme emergency) with any who excell themselves getting recylced back into adventuring groups.
The reliability aspect is important, and it means that adventurers almost always get paid up front, something that suprised my players to no end. They considered taking the money and running for it before doing a juob before I explained that they would most likely get the guild after them to return the money.
While they get greater opportunities with the guild they are also expected to do a certain amount of public service, such as keeping the region they're in mostly free from harm. They also come to the aid of other towns who are besieged in force.But the same benefits cover them. They also get reduced rates in many taverns and inns across the lands.

I think I might put the lead adventurers up a few levels maybe just nudging into paragon tier, as in their back story they did deal with a young red dragon (Rare, and feared greatly in their world.) I kinda scaled them from there.

Because of the nature of the group in the town they're in, the local lord uses them as his sort of private police. They provide business for the town, and allow the Lord to charge a certain amount of 'tax' in exchange for the benefits the security and the business provides. Because of the Guild's reputation as 'Heroes' of the local area, the town itself hasn't become the source of an increase in the illicit business' about town, although there is another town to the north, where the adventurer's are less principled and might be more akin to participating in that sort of fare.

I like the idea of people getting into Adventuring to start out but then racking up huge debts they have to pay off. Hope you don't mind if I 'borrow' that idea! :smalltongue:

Yakk
2010-01-29, 09:13 AM
You'll notice that the existing adventuerers are at the end of heroic tier.

Time for a phase change.

As the PCs approach the level of the highest level adventurers, something horrid happens -- on the scale of the previous calamity that resulted in the level 8 adventurers -- that the PCs save the area from, bringing them fame, fortune, and making them pass level 8.

And then the excrement hits the air mobility device, which opens up a new plot for Paragon tier, in some way connected to the previous event.

Ie, the PCs save the area from a demon summoning cult. . . and then the cultist they missed opens a portal to the elemental chaos, and an army of demons flows into the area. This is quickly followed by an army of Gensai, who seal off the area, and evacuate the remaining living souls to the elemental chaos. . .

Swordgleam
2010-01-29, 09:30 AM
I like the idea of people getting into Adventuring to start out but then racking up huge debts they have to pay off. Hope you don't mind if I 'borrow' that idea! :smalltongue:

Hey, that's why we posted it!


As for "why does the party advance faster," you can look at it a couple of ways. One is, "if someone else were advancing faster, this story/game would be about them."

Another is that the party is simply better at dealing with these new threats. Other adventurers might be taking on the new baddies, but they need more people to do it, and so gain less xp.

Or, if your campaign is the type with destiny at all, your party just seems to end up in the midst of all the worst conflicts somehow. Everyone else is fighting tougher monsters, but not nearly as much tougher as the party's.

Maybe a lot of adventurers can't take the heat of the new threat, and are getting out of adventuring rather than staying in and leveling up.

To preserve versimilitude, you could have a couple of other groups that level about as fast as the PCs. One might end up as friends, another, as rivals, and still another might end up crazy or evil and eventually have to be taken out.

Dervag
2010-01-29, 10:37 AM
Here's an idea:

The vast majority of 'Adventurers' are young adults trying to get some quick money and experience (something to put on their resume) before they try getting a real job. Many of them are fresh out of whatever schooling they've gotten and the act of adventuring is almost seen as a rite of passage. If you go out and spend a year or so keeping the goblins and bugbears from attacking the city then you've made your mark as a member of society.

The city guards? They got their jobs after a year or two of adventuring to get the practice and recommendations for the job. The mages and shopkeepers each spent a year or so out there doing the odd jobs in dangerous areas, making connections, grabbing loot from beaten goblin bandits and collecting bounties on dangerous beasts.So... the adventurers are a militia drawn from the citizenry, and social status is tied to militia membership?

jiriku
2010-01-29, 11:02 AM
An easy solution to "why aren't the NPCs leveling?" that was touched on a bit earlier is this: attrition. Let's assume that your average guild adventurer stays with the guild about 18 months. During that time, they manage to have, say, three significant encounters per month. That's 54 encounters, and at 13.33 per level, takes a 1st-level recruit to level 5.

Where do they go? Many of them die. Most of them, once they strike it rich, retire and take up a less dangerous profession. If you started out as the son a dirt farmer, once you get seven or eight thousand gold to your name, you feel like the richest man on earth. Suddenly you start thinking about all the things you want to do with that money, and you're less excited about the prospect of trying to root Tucker's kobolds out of their cave and possibly winding up on the wrong end of seventeen poisoned darts.

the players are exceptional, not because they're leveling all that fast, but because they don't die or quit. And, as suggested, sooner or later that means they outgrow the guild, and move from being simple guild adventurers to being Badass Heroes.

bosssmiley
2010-01-29, 12:24 PM
Ok, so, when I was staring my campaign, I wanted to avoid the tired (albeit awesome) trope of the party starting in a tavern, and being approached by a wizened old man with some magical item he'd left out of his reach on a shelf he'd long forgotten about.

So, instead, the party started as members of an Adventuring Guild, sent on a routine assignment to an isolated town, in which they sought out a wizened old man who had a job for them, to find some magical item he'd left out of his reach on a shelf he'd long forgotten about.

However, it's left me in a position where they were simply one group amongst many. I'm worried that it'll be hard to stimulate that sort of environment as they progress up in levels. Currently the highest level members of the Guild are about lvl 8 each, developed over about 60 years. It's in an area of high density, but low level encounters.

However, the players are currently lvl 3, but progressing in levels rapidly. This is largely due to the fact that there has been a rise in the numbers of higher level enemies, as divine powers have begun to spin wheels that will change the nature of the world itself.

Do you think this makes sense, or could the most ingenious members of the playground provide another solution? Or does it not make sense at all? Or should they be somewhere in the Paragon tier?

I think you're creating a problem where there isn't one.

So there are lots of low level adventurers in the area keeping the monster population in check. Fine. These NPC second stringers can carry on dealing with the smaller scale effects of BBEG plots while our designated heroes (the PCs) do all the cool stuff that allows them to attain twelvety-third level and deal with the BBEG himself.

Not all superheroes end up in the Justice League.