View Full Version : Ranking Races and Classes by Coolness [4e]

2010-01-28, 05:34 PM
I thought of a fun thread topic that I haven't ever seen on this forum.

Rank your favorite 4e races and classes based on "coolness". State whether you're focusing on fluff or mechanics as your major interest. Feel free to add descriptions explaining your choices.

PHB 1 Races: In order of most, to least, appealing fluff wise.

Eladrin (for their magical feel)
Humans / Dwarves / Halflings (they're all fairly human-like; woot hominids)
Elves (because they've got cool pointy ears)
Dragonborn (you need at least one overly masculine race)
Half Elves (they don't seem especially unique)
Tieflings (the whole demon-bloodline thing, was never that appealing to me)

PHB 1 Classes: In order of most, to least, appealing fluff wise.

Wizard (They're a staple fantasy class, plus they're awesome, period)
Paladin (I love that there is no more alignment restriction)
Fighter / Warlords (Someone has to be good with swords and shields)
Cleric (Healers are awesome)
Ranger (Only Aragorn could pull off being a cool ranger)
Rogue (Lock picking, thievery, deceit, maleficence... just not my thing)
Warlock (Wizard wanna-be. Go pick up a book!)

PHB 2 Races: In order of most, to least, appealing fluff wise.

Deva (Divine, super stoic, and just an awesome shade of blue)
Goliath (The quintessential bodyguard, with fewer table manners)
Gnome (Like halflings, except trickier)
Half Orc / Shifter (Less civilized, less interesting)

PHB 2 Classes: In order of most, to least, appealing fluff wise.

Druid (Earth wizards!)
Avenger (Paladins with angst!)
Warden (Earth martial-ish defenders are solid)
Invoker (Only cool because your deity says so)
Bard (Magical musicians are sort of cool)
Shaman (Druid wanna-be with magic mushrooms)
Sorcerer (Wizard wanna-be; Go read a book, and get anger management)
Barbarian (Yawn. Period)

Kurald Galain
2010-01-28, 06:15 PM
Okay. Races, from cool to lame:

Elves, because Our Elves Are Better. And that includes Eladrin.
Doppelganger. Can pick from any of the below at will.
Dwarves. They're sturdy, they're tough, and they'll kick your ass while quaffing ale.
Gnome. Funky illusionists that make you laugh while you underestimate them.
Halfling. They keep changing identities but have had some decent ones.
Human. Average, by definition
Deva. Meh, it feels mostly like yet another elf race.
Half Elf and Half Orc. Putting in half-breeds means they're running out of ideas.
Goliath; oh look, it's a caveman. The Big Guy race was already taken, twice.
Shifter. The concept of shapeshifting is nice, but these guys just don't do that.
Warforged. Robots don't fit in a fantasy world.
Dragonboob. Are you compensating for something?
Tiefling: mopey goths with stupid names.

Classes, from cool to lame:

Wizard, one of the prime staples of fantasy.
Rogue, another prime staple of fantasy, doing through sheer moxie what they lack in brute strength.
Fighter, the third and final prime staple. Wit, guile and brawn.
Druid, protector of nature.
Paladin, the awesome knight of sheer holier-than-thou-ness.
Ranger. Archers will still hit you before you know what's coming.
Sorcerer. Actually, the raw power arcane archetype is more common than the book-learned one. It's just that "sorcerer" isn't a cool enough name.
Warlords. The underrepresented leader type.
Barbarian. Barely distinguishable from the fighter.
Warlock. Barely distinguishable from the sorcerer.
Bard. You go into a dungeon and you sing at people.
Cleric. It's not an archetype anywhere outside D&D.
Invoker, the copy/paste job from the wizard.
Shaman, the cleric wannabe.
Warden. Oh look, it's the druid again. And a stupid name, to boot.
Avenger, yeah, it's exactly like a paladin with a different name.

In other news, chocolate.

2010-01-28, 06:33 PM

-Tiefling. Nice flavour, cool feel, goes well with the classes I prefer.
-Warforged. Again, great flavour, cool feel. Definitely my pick for a martial character.
-Humans. I actually like the idea of humans being the most 'adaptable' race in this world.
-Changeling. If I were a rogue in Eberron, I'd be a changeling.
-Dragonborn. A nice addition to the pantheon. If I was playing a fighter and warforged weren't allowable, I'd be a dragonborn.
-Half-orcs. Goes well with my preferences in classes, but tieflings are better.
-Devas. If I were a divine character, I'd be a deva. I like the whole "I've been reborn throughout the generations" backstory. I'm just not sure how I'd play one RP-wise.
-Dwarves. I like their new flavour as former slaves of the giants. Also, who doesn't like playing an axe dwarf?
-Half-elves. Good warlocks, but I don't like that they get an arbitrary increase to Constitution.
-Halfling. Good thieves, but I could never see myself playing one.
-Elves. Excellent rangers, but I'm not a big archer or two-weapon fighter type.
-Eladrin. Good wizards, but I don't really see them as adventurers.
-Goliath. I just ... I don't know, I just don't see how I play one of these.
-Shifters. I think they have a place in the D&D world, but I'm not big on Primal types.
-Gnomes. I like them a lot more now that they're fey … but I'm still prejudiced against them from the days when gnomes were weaker clones of dwarves.

-Warlocks. I don't care whether or not they're the best Strikers. They iz cool.
-Rogues. After a warlock, rogue is my next choice. I like the skills and I love the backstabbery.
-Fighter. Because I love being on the front lines and smashin' face.
-Bards. I never played one, but I would dearly love to try.
-Barbarian. For much the same reason as the fighter. Ranked lower 'cuz it's a Primal class.
-Paladins. Same reason as the fighter and barbarian, but ranked the lowest because it's a Divine character.
-Avenger. Low on the list of Strikers because I prefer warlocks and rogues, but I admit the idea sounds really cool. Kind of like Altair from Assassin's Creed.
-Clerics. Good healers, love turning undead.
-Wizards. Arcane caster. Lots of variety in play. Just ... prefer the warlock.
-Sorceror. Not sure I could play an effective one, as I don't really "get" the class.
-Druids. 'Cuz shapeshifting is awesome, sort of.
-Ranger. Somewhat ambivalent to rangers. Not big on archer types.
-Warlord. Probably the best Leaders, but I just never warmed to this class. Not sure why. Have no real reason.
-Invoker. I'd rather play a Cleric, to be honest.
-Shamans. If I wanted to be a Leader, I'd be a bard or a cleric. Not a goddamn tree-hugging 'spirit healer.'
-Wardens. I honestly don't get the point of this class and I can't even bear to give it more than a cursory look. If I wanted to play a Defender, I'd be a fighter.

Haven't really done much with the Psion or Monk to comment on them.

2010-01-28, 08:45 PM

Human: I'm pretty sure it's less not-cool to pretend to just be a Guy with a Sword rather than an Elf-Guy with a sword.
Dwarf: Always awesome, and now their mechanics really seem to exemplify badassery to the extreme.
Elf: Elves are kinda neat.
Half-Elf: Being somewhat Elf has to be at least somewhat kinda neat. Also, Dilettante is a fun feature.
Half-Orc: I can be part-human part-something-else without being a sissy and I'm NOT hideous? That could be fun. Although, most of the fluff suggesting they are not products of orc hordes raping humans is kinda dumb IMO.
Gnome: Whether they're mythical fey creatures or insane inventors, I'll always have a soft spot for Gnomes. It's also fun to say "Gnome".
Kobold: Kobolds are like Gnomes, in that they're just fun. Wait, aren't they actually the same in some cultures? Whatever, they're good with traps and they get an awesome power. Good enough for me.
Goblin: Also kinda like Gnomes, except I like to pretend they're marginally more insane.
Warforged: lol Robut.

Deva, Dragonborn, Tiefling, Goliath, Eladrin and Shifter just all kind of strike me as filler for the books. They all tie for last place. I can't understand why anyone would want to be any of them apart from their mechanical benefits or as some kind of metagame joke ("I WANNA LOOK LIKE A DRAGON").

Other stuff I didn't bother ranking isn't terrible, I just don't really care to rank it. It's just all somewhere above Last Place.


Fighter: In a world where there are gods, magic and monsters, being just A Guy With A Sword is totally badass.
Sorcerer: Just behind Badassery is The Actual Magic Stuff, the sort I like most being the Blasty-Kapow kind. I don't care much for the Dragon Sorcerer, but Wild Mage is not only hilarious but also fulfills my Explosion Quota.
Invoker: To me, this class has much more of a divine feel than any other of its source. Because it seems to more strongly represent the godly presences in the game, I think it adds to the fantastical qualities and makes the game a little more exciting.
Paladin: I like the idea of a holy warrior, and 4E has done a pretty good job of it. However, I would prefer they were more reliant on STR for their powers.
Cleric: Healers are nice to have, especially when they can still fight, and take a few hits. While I don't mind the idea of regaining HP through rest, I prefer it to come from sources beyond. I would prefer they were a little less reliant on STR for some powers, tho.
Ranger: Woodsy guy. Neat.
Rogue: Backstabby guy. Also neat.
Wizard: A not-so-explodey mage is still fairly cool. But, I feel a little underwhelmed by some of their stuff.
Warlord: While they have a few annoying powers (I think the idea behind Commander's Strike is a little silly, for instance), it can be fun to be a Fighter-esque guy whose powers are more explicitly "Tactical".
Warlock: While I enjoy the Deal-with-the-Devil Warlocks, the rest feel a little boring.
Druid: I don't like the style too much, but it looks like it could be fun to bring one along.
Avenger: I could muster an idea for one, and probably have fun with it. But, never really felt compelled to try.
Barbarian: Not bad but looks a little bland. Uncompelling.
Bard: A little too musical. Rather un-inspiring.

I think the Warden and Shaman just look really dumb, and share last. I don't think I have interest in the idea of ever playing either.

2010-01-28, 09:12 PM
Sadly (on a personal level) when I first looked at the 4e PHB1 races, I mentally ranked them not by coolness, but by "most likely to be played by complete and utter tools." It's hard for me to look at them without that getting in the way. But I will try.

Tiefling (I'm a sucker for all things demonic, even if these score off the charts on my "likely to be played by tools" meter. I'm also going to pretend the built-in fluff doesn't exist, because there are approximately a billion better reasons for having demon blood.)
Eladrin (Really cool racial abilities, but similar problem to tieflings)
Elf (These were going to be lower, then I remembered that they're "woodsy elves" instead of "obnoxiously arrogant elves" now and I approve of that)
Half-elves (The "race of their own" thing is silly, but they're fairly cool)
Human (Everyone below this I actively dislike in some way)
Halfling (Just not a fan of short races.)
Dwarf (See above, plus bad personal dwarf experiences.)
Dragonborn (Aside from blowing away both tieflings and eladrin on the "likely to be played by tools" scale, every other race is pretty much the same: skin, hair, fingernails, etc. Dragonborn are GIANT FREAKING LIZARDS. No. Not as a core PC race. Just no.)

I'm equally content with all the PHB1 classes and not blown away by any of them (though I have a soft spot for warlock, flavor wise) so I'll skip those.

Shifter (I expected to be totally nonplussed by these, but I really like how they turned out)
Goliath (Also much cooler than I expected)
Half-Orc (I'm a traditionalist, and the pictures are really cool)
Gnome (Meh.)
Deva (I kind of want to set them all on fire and I can't even tell you exactly why)

As for the classes, I'm pretty much in love with sorcs, think all the primal classes are equally cool, and massively impressed with the new bard, and don't really care about the avenger or invoker.

2010-01-28, 10:10 PM
Dwarves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI)
Humans (Hey I'm proud of my jack-of-all inexplicably conqueror race)
Half-Orc (They're almost as cool as real orcs)
Dragonborn, male (I have always really like lizards, sure every time I've seen them played it's been by a **** but that's not the problem of the race now)
Goliath (heh cavemen, heck yeah)
Halflings (sneaky sneaky)
Kobold (yeah, like they need a reason)
Gnome (like halflings but insane scientist! I guess I just like sneaks more)
Goblins (I always liked goblins from my magic the gathering days using them as sacrifices, good times)
Half-elves (poor buggers it's not their fault)
Tiefling (ehh not much to say)
Devas (look above)
Shifter (not really interested in them)
Dragonborn, female (sorry I think it's getting to the point where it's being over complained about but really lizard boobs breaks the cool lizard feel for me)
Warforged (I'm not really a look-a-robot-is-in-my-fantasy-how-cool kinda guy)
Elves (buggering elves)
Eladrin (buggering elves who don't even own up to being elves)

Fighter (I like to hit things with swords)
Warlord (I also like ordering others to hit things with swords)
Rogue (sneaky sneaky)
Barbarian (I like hitting people with axes too!)
Paladin (Not only do they hit people, but they do it because they're holy! I want to hit people and be holy too!)
Warlock (and the first real magic user on the list)
Bard (It takes some big guts to enter a dungeon armed with a lyre and expect to come out alive)
Clerics (They're kinda a staple of fantasy)
Wizards (As are these)
Sorcerer (I have not really looked through this class yet, but it appears to be a striker so that's nice)
Invoker (Ehh I'm ambivalent)
Avenger (something about this class doesn't grab my attention)
Rangers (You'd probably think, Dienekes you like stabbing people, is shooting them with arrows somehow not good? No, not at all, arrows are fine. They just play boring)
Druid (magic bloody tree huggers. Honestly though I have just never had an interest to play one.)
Shaman (sort of same as Druid but even moreso since I at least recognize Druid from 3.5)

2010-01-28, 10:28 PM
My favorites:

Dragonborn: Breath weapon. Perhaps it's my love for dragonspawn in 3.5 MMIV, but I think these guys are awesome (I'd re-fluff them to have true dragon colors, though). Basically, they're mechanics are great, but fluff could do better (I also dislike the choice of name). But...breath weapon...
Warforged: They're friggin' construct fantasy robots? What's not to like?
Dwarves: Dwaaaaaarves, to hell with elves. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI) The 4e dwarves are very...dwarfy. Nothing wrong there!
Doppelgangers: Changelings! Disguises! I love it!
Half-Elves: Only for they're dilettante ability. Otherwise, I'm not a fan of how they were handled. But I love dilettante.

Least favorites:

Goliath: Didn't like them in 3.5, don't like them now.
Gnomes: They used to be my favorite before the changes. Mostly, they kinda creep me out now.
Eladrin: lolbloodelves
Tieflings: I just can't justify them as a player race, ties to an ancient cursed civilization or not. Only in Planescape I say!

Mushroom Ninja
2010-01-28, 10:29 PM
In order from favorite to least favorite 1 being AWESOME, 3-4 being meh, 6 being :smallfurious:


1.Warlord: My favorite class so far. You hit enemies... WITH THE FIGHTER!

2.Fighter and Wizard
Wizard: Blasty goodness with a healthy mix of orb lockdown
Fighter: I love how sticky they are

3.Cleric: Lazers are cool, I guess, but you don't get the awesome stuff from warlord

4. Rogue and Ranger: Stabbing stuff with pointy things is cool too, I guess

5.Paladin: never been too impressed

6.Warlock: "Ooooh look at me, I'm a warlock. I've got teenaged angst. ANGST-ANGST-ANGST-ANGST! I'm dark and scaaaaary. ANGST-ANGST-ANGST-ANGST!"

1. Eladrin/Humans: I like the flavor of humans and the feystepping of Eladrin

2. Dwarves and Elves
Dorfs: Urist McHammerdwarf says it's Hammer time!
Elves: Mmmmmm... re-rolls.... sexy, sexy re-rolls...

3. Halflings: pretty cool.

4. Half-elves: meh.

5. Tieflings: "Ooooh, look at me. I'm a tiefling! I've got a tail. And Angst. ANGST-ANGST-ANGST-ANGST! ANGST-ANGST-ANGST-ANGST!" :smallfurious:

6. Boob Dragons Dragonborn: Look really, really stupid. (Note: If you can convince your DM to reflavor Dragonborn as Raptorborn, the unholy decendents of VELOCIRAPTORS, this race actually ties for 1st with Eladrin and Humans.)

2010-01-28, 10:35 PM
(Note: If you can convince your DM to reflavor Dragonborn as Raptorborn, the unholy decendents of VELOCIRAPTORS, this race actually ties for 1st with Eladrin and Humans.)+1 to this, good sir! In my delusional mind, the fluff in the book actually re-writes itself to this.

2010-01-28, 10:42 PM
Why no Swordmage love? :smallconfused:

2010-01-28, 11:04 PM
Why no Swordmage love? :smallconfused:

I decided to stick with only PHB 1, and 2 classes.

If I were to rank them, they'd go fairly high, because they're both magic-ish, and martial, which I find cool. - I also had a player playing a swordmage that took 3 consecutive critical hits and they didn't die.

2010-01-28, 11:17 PM
(Note: If you can convince your DM to reflavor Dragonborn as Raptorborn, the unholy decendents of VELOCIRAPTORS, this race actually ties for 1st with Eladrin and Humans.)

I've been calling them "stupidborn," but "raptorborn" is a much better idea. Heck, one of our dborn players is already called Rex. (I told my players dragonborn were rare in this setting because I hate them, and also some in-game logic. Immediate response: two out of four players roll up dborn characters.)

It's funny to me to see the similarities and differences in people's answers. Looks like dborn and tieflings are both "either love them or hate them" races.

2010-01-28, 11:40 PM
Race-based coolometer!

Goliath: Nature-loving, highly competitive, naturally ripped, love of freedom, and zebra-stripes of destiny. Loved these guys since Races of Stone.
Humans: Adaptable pioneers and explorers? Yes please!
Elves: For the Aerenal Elves alone. Other elf cultures, not so cool. Aerenal Elves make the whole thing worth it, though.
Drow: Heh, what can I say? I like playing drow. They're mostly subversions of the CE type, but I think it counts.
Doppelgangers/Changelings: Shape-shifting is cool.
Gnolls: Kinda weird, I know. But I love their article, their racial feats (Butcher's Lure? Amazing), and just the idea of playing one.
Everyone Else: I'm pretty neutral towards the rest of the PC races, really. Not a big fan of the Shadar-Kai, but otherwise, I might play one of these races if I had a character in mind, otherwise I'd gravitate towards the ones I named above. Really wish trolls were a playable race.

Class-based coolometer!

Sorcerer: As soon as Storm and Cosmic Sorcerers made the scene, I was in love. High Charisma and Strength/Dex, Athletics as a class skill, all it needs is Diplomacy and it's the perfect class.
Warlock: Star warlocks, specifically. I love how it can't decide between "madness from beyond space" and "shoot space debris at things." I've wanted to play one since 4E came out. The only "Guilds and Groups" article I ever thought cool was the Star Warlock one. And I mean, c'mon; Epic Destiny that turns you into a star? Sweet merciful heavens that's awesome.
Paladin: For sure. I'm a big fan of devoted knights. Plus, Strength and Charisma, Striker + Defender + middling leader? Yes! And even more, Pallies have a power that I can't help but see as "holy rocket boots." Gotta love 'em.
Druid: It's all about the Swarm Druid. Primal Power hit the stands and I was hooked.
Bard: I was kinda "eh" about them until I got a look at the Prescient Bard. I still don't quite understand how's "bardic" but "Fate-Warping Marksman" may be one of the coolest concepts ever.
Avenger: Pursuit avengers be da bomb, man. Mechanically, maybe not, but they're the coolest witch hunters I know. The other builds are pretty cool, too.
Swordmage: They're ridiculous. Have you read that fluff? Turn your sword into geysers of acid, meteorites, clones of yourself, have your sword get up and fight on its own... the list goes on. They're silly and I love 'em for it.
Fighter: It's hard not to like a class that you can fit so many concepts into.
Seeker: We've only seen half the class, but I like it already.
And the Rest: Like the races, if I have a specific character in mind, I'll use one of the other classes. Otherwise, I don't even consider.

2010-01-29, 07:29 AM
Races toplist:
Dwarf. Finally dwarves are statted the way they should be.
Genasi. Elemental Awesomeness. though the 'dark genasi' feel kinda forced
Half-Orc. Classic brute, mis-understood monster/dark history without being all angsty about it.
War-Forged. I always imagined them more a golem than a robot. Animated and suddenly aware. No longer a puppet but a fully aware being.

Races Bottom-list.
Tiefling. You couldn't be mor angsty looking if you were a sparkling vampire.
Shifter. Grrrr... I'm all animal-like... grrrrr
Deva. No.. Just no... you're not an angel. good powers and stats, I admit... but you're a fricking blue-bird
Eladrin. You're an elf.. just admit it. Are you so elitist that you had to seperate yourself from the other elves?

Class Toplist is pretty tough. I like alot of things about alot of the classes. Mainly I love that the classes that were so abused and forgotten from the old days are back. But also I'm happy that the days of 'Wizard > the universe' is over. so I'll have to start there
Fighter. The good old fashioned fighter is back and more [email protected]$$ then ever
Cleric and Wizard. Both are in balance with the rest of the world now instead of having free reign to re-write the universe and conquer gods single-handedly with a bottomless spellbook of cheese.

Class bottom-list.
Avenger. The entire class seems forced. Like they saw the game 'Assassin's creed' and went 'Ohh.. let's make that a Player Class'
Druid. Are you a caster or are you a front-line. Make up your mind because trying to split it is making you suck at both.
Artificer. This class should be Gnome only.

Class Wish list.
Rogue. It feels bad that half the rogue's awesomeness can be taken by anyone with the purchase of one skill.
Monk. Monk should be Martial. I have nothing against psionics as a power source, but Monk should be Martial!
Invoker. Its a cleric pretending to be a wizard or a wizard pretending to be a cleric. I'd like it better if it were just an aggressive form of cleric.
Ranger. I miss the 'warrior of the wild' feel. tracking and druid magic. Now its just 'hit things' or 'shoot things' The companion helps, but it feels more like he's carrying a puppet.

2010-01-29, 07:41 AM
a goliath bard sounds awesome.

2010-01-29, 09:32 AM
Race 5 top list:
Devas: They're awesome. I mean, my group is a roleplay group what likes certain themes and ideas, and the Devas just walk right into those.
Genasi: I have yet to play a genasi that isn't awesome. They need a touch of visual re-fluffing for my preference (I generall just give them hair. Hence the number 2 slot), but energy lines and chaotic souls = yesplz.
Eladrin: I like dividing elves up. I also like injecting a certain amout of classic fae into them when I can. Not something I use too often, but I take pleasure in it when I do.
Kalashtar: Another one that requires a lot of re-fluffing to bring them into my inevitable quick-homebrew worlds. But once you take the core premise of "dream-people" how can I not go "yes, yes, yes please!" They get a low spot because of the setting-based homebrew that needs doing before I can use them, but the key thematic elements remain.
Human: I play more humans than this whole list put together, but they've just got the versatality to reccomend them.

Race bottom 5 list:
Warforged: A basic law of whether I like something or not is "how high-tech is it?" including, in some places, magitech. As the tech level increases, my interest decreases. Hence, warforged don't interest me.
Dragonborn: Waay overhyped. I don't see the appeal. I, on rare occaisons, like a re-fluffed sleeker asian-y variant.
Tiefling: Really, what race needs to directly point out that they have 'angsty' as a potential quality? a pansy race, that's what. ALL RACES HAVE ANGST! I much prefer the older Tieflings' looks, as well.
Half-Orcs: I dunno. They just don't interest me. They suck the interest from me.
Halflings: I cannot explain why, but somehow, it's a quiet assumption in all my worlds that there are no halflings. I wouldn't refuse a player who wanted to play one, save that my group also is interested in a world with no halflings. There's just something vaguely unappealing about them in every aspect.

Classes Top 5
Swordmage: I have yet to play a non-awesome swordmage. The mix of light-footed swordfighting and magic just makes me happy in sooo many ways.
Paladin: I still like playing strictly LG Paladins. Yeah. And post DP, it's actually a viable choice! Yaaaay!
Bard: I still love bards. I love musicians who support and kick ass and be delightful. I love the wandering minstral types.
Warlord: I just think they're cool. I remember who delighted my group was to discover and play Warlords, and that joy's still there. They're not always my first choice for a leader, but they're not my last.
Wizard: I like being the studious master of the arcane -- I like Bookish types.

Classes bottom 5
I dunno. These are just the ones, usually the builds, I find the least interesting to play -- I don't have classes I actively dislike, or even classes I'm not interested in playing. Just builds.
non-beastmaster rangers: Wooh. Archery or having two weapons. Wooh. Wow. Color me impressed.
Battle Clerics: I dunno. I play a lot of Clerics, but battle clerics don't speak to me much.
Helllocks I've never been able to get into them like I have other brands of Warlock.
Brutish Rogue: I'm clearly running out of ideas. I'm none too fond of brutish rogues -- they feel like thugs.
Psions: It's a preview now, but I've never been interested in psionics.


2010-01-29, 09:19 PM
a goliath bard sounds awesome.

Now that you mention it, yes. Yes it does. I'm gonna hafta try that.

2010-01-29, 10:36 PM
I have to stand up for my tieflings: my first 4e character was a tiefling. They are “Cunning, disquieting, imposing, mysterious, proud, rebellious, self-reliant, sinister, sly, unconventional.” I don’t read any of that inherently angsty.

Their powers/traits/racial feats are focused on fire, fear, wrath, blood. None of that screams:

“Wahhh! I’m filled with impotent rage because I just want to be loved so I hide behind that enormous chip on my shoulder and prove I’m not hurting with gratuitous body piercings.”

That’s the Shadar-kai.

Inyssius Tor
2010-01-30, 12:00 AM
I have to stand up for my tieflings: [they're pretty cool, and not at all like this]

“Wahhh! I’m filled with impotent rage because I just want to be loved so I hide behind that enormous chip on my shoulder and prove I’m not hurting with gratuitous body piercings.”

That’s the Shadar-kai.

Likewise, I've kinda got to stand up for the shadar-kai.

See, it's not exactly impotent rage; there's a reason they're everywhere in the Shadowfell.

And not exactly "because I just want to be loved"; instead, something more like "because an ancient curse will eat me, Dorian Grey-style, if I go long without feeling any powerful emotion".

And likewise they don't go in for gratuitous, extremely painful body piercings to "prove I’m not hurting"; rather, they do it to "ensure that if I'm too tired to pick fights or have sex and I'm all out of cocaine, I can fall back on the aforementioned extreme pain to keep the curse away."

And they're not really big on angst. Metal ridiculousness, sure, but not emo pathetic-ness; indeed, their entire culture is built around avoiding that particular irritating strain of self-piteous ennui, because as previously mentioned it kills them. Occupational hazard of living in the Shadowfell, really. Occasionally they leave behind hostile wraiths when the curse gets them, too, so other shadar-kai despise that sort of nonsense even more than you do.

2010-01-30, 12:11 AM
Genasi. Elemental Awesomeness. though the 'dark genasi' feel kinda forced

To me the Abyssal Genasi are just a reboot of the old Quasi and Para Elemental origined Genasi of editions past.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-01-30, 02:03 AM
My Top 5 Races

Deva: They're the replacement for the aasimars, which I thought were cool, and the idea that they're actually angelic souls in mortal bodies seems a lot cooler to me than being descended from an angel and a human doing it. That whole "half-whatever" concept that was perpetuated by 3.5 always bothered me, not so much because of the creepyness but because it didn't make much sense. However, I have one complaint about devas. The male ones seem to be borrowing from Dr. Manhattan too much. I don't really like playing bald characters, and having bright purple or blue skin just looks silly!
Half-Elves: They got a real big boost with 4e, and an even bigger one with Versatile Mastery in the PHB2. I like how easy it is to multiclass with them, especially if you take an at-will from the class you're multiclassing into as a dilletante power. Until they came out with the hybrid option, this was the closest you could get to a true blend of two classes. Plus they work well with some of my favorite classes *cough*paladins*cough*
Dragonborn: I know they get kind of a bad rap, and I'll admit, even I was a bit leery of them to begin with, but they've really grown on me. They don't look THAT ugly, and I tend to ignore the whole "reptilian creatures shouldn't have breasts" argument. I really don't care. They can breath fire, they can eventually learn how to fly, and they have strong convictions, which is always a plus for me. And they're another great race for paladins.
Half-Orcs: These guys got a MUCH deserved makeover with 4e. No longer are they required to be butt-ugly and stupid. I must say, the female half-orcs actually look pretty cute now. They've also retained their great strength, with the added bonus of being quick and limber to boot. And there isn't the infamous "Oh, that imply really ugly backstory" problem anymore.
Gnomes: While I'm not too certain of the "escaped fey slave" story they're choosing as the default for gnomes, but they've lost none of their badassness. My brother and I have always thought gnomes were among the coolest of the D&D races, capable of being great rogues,great wizards and great bards, and that hasn't changed in 4e at all. I may miss the days when they occasionally dabbled in future technology and stuff, but gnomes remain my vision of incredible badasses who are a blast to be around.

My Bottom 5 Races:

Halflings: Anything they can do, gnomes can do better. And they seem to have gotten kind of bland with 4e. I'm not certain why they've become associated with riverboats now, either.
Shifters: I can see why some people think they're cool, basically a lycanthrope without the evil requirement, but I never quite understood them. They've always seemed to be an Eberron thing to me, so I'm not certain why they made it into the PHB2
Dwarves: Don't get me wrong, I think dwarves are okay, but nothing in 4e really makes them stand out to me. Dwarves have never been able to stand out well. It's not that they're uncool. It's that they're bland.
Tieflings: I couldn't care less about the whole angst thing. I don't think tieflings are really THAT whiny. But they're kind of unnerving to look at. I'm glad they standardized them a bit, so they feel more like a race, and they got rid of the crossbreeding squick, but again, nothing really stands out with them to me. And since they don't have much in the physical stats department, I tend to ignore them.
Elves: Never really liked elves that much. They always seemed bland to me.

Top 5 Classes

Paladin: Oh, come on, you knew it couldn't be anything else! :smalltongue: 4e was the game that started taking paladins seriously. The risk of falling isn't there, so it doesn't give other players or DMs ammunition to pick on your character. They can smite with their weapon, or from afar, and they can be any alignment now. While I didn't mind the 3.5 alignment requirements, this new liberation really makes the paladin more attractive.
Bard: 4e made bards badass. Where before they were just musicians who happened to cast spells and stuff, now they have an important place in combat. They actually can handle themselves in a fight and are no longer pansies.
Wizard: While 3.5's wizards were undisputed masters of the game, 4e gave them a lot more variety in terms of roleplay. Instead of basically being the troubleshooter, the wizard feels truly earthshaking now. And it made my brother happy because they got rid of spells that he thought were just stupid.
Warlord: I love this class for what it represents. The end of the cleric's monopoly on healing. Plus, I love being the guy who gets up in front of the army and delivers a rousing speech before yelling "CHARGE!" Plus, I like how your command style can be so diverse. You can be smart, inspirational, daring or some combination of those three.
Fighter: Like the paladin, the fighter got an incredible boost with 4e. It is no longer the weakling of the classes, able to get into the fight and take every hit and give it right back until he's the only one left standing! I also like how the class lets you take any kind of weapon and be awesome with it. You can be effective with almost any kind of weapon, instead of just relying on swords. It's time these other weapons got a chance to shine.

Bottom 5 Classes:

Cleric: While I am a fan of divine characters, nothing about the cleric really speaks to me. Maybe it's because I was desensitized to what it can do back in 3.5, but it seems like the Warlord can do everything the cleric can do, and can make it look cooler. They seem kind of bland in 4e.
Rogue: I've never regarded rogues as anything but a means to get chests and doors open. It doesn't matter what cool new powers they got or the variety they have now, they're still just a set of walking lockpicks to me.
Assassin: I think this class is redundant. An assassin is someone who kills for money or political reasons, which is precisely what rogues can do. Why not just play a rogue and call him an assassin? This new class doesn't make any sense to me.
Warden: I think they're supposed to be a primal version of the paladin, but I've never really understood them that well. The druid, shaman and barbarian are easy to understand. This one doesn't seem to have any sort of fictional archetype that I can look at to get some context.
Any Psionic Class: I know I'm cheating a bit with this one, using multiple classes for a single entry, but there it is. I don't really get psionics. I never have. Maybe it's because my first exposure to the concept of psychic powers and stuff was Sabrina the gym leader, in the Pokemon anime, but I've always viewed psionics as being more sci-fi than fantasy. And from what I've read of the upcoming psionic classes, most of them have the same problem as the Warden. They don't have an archetype in myth, fairy tale or fantasy novel that I can point to and say "That's a *insert psionic class here*" and the Monk feels kind of shoehorned in.

That's my thoughts on it anyway.

2010-01-30, 02:58 AM

Elves - because I'm so relieved that they finally split the "wizardy" elves and the "rangery" elves into separate races for real, and the woodsy ones rock.
Humans - I'm still in residual joy because humans don't suck like they did (mechanically) in 2e. Yay for adventuring parties that actually have a fair number of humans in them. I like the 4e Human feats, too.
Dwarves - Yeah. They're dwarves.
Shifter - Yay, shifters don't suck anymore. Such flexible fluff, adaptable to so many settings!
Eladrin - again, I'm glad they've got a cohesive theme now. A little high-magic feeling for a player race, but otherwise cool.
Dragonborn - Some of the specific fluff and artwork is dumb, but I'm glad they finally made dragon-men a balanced, available-by-default race.
Halflings - Need to pick an identity and stick with it for more than a couple years. And the current iteration is just too Kender for me. Could be worse, though ... I like the gypsy thing.
Deva - I like that they tried to make the Aasimar type a little more distinctive, but it feels a bit ... specific to me. And vague at the same time.
Goliath - I haven't read the PHB2 fluff, but the Goliath fluff in Races of Stone was actually pretty entertaining, if not quite archetypical fantasy. And in 4e, it's nice to not have Level Adjustments anymore.
Tiefling - I liked the "subtle" 3e Tieflings better than the 4e melodrama. Still, the whole archetype is decent enough.
Gnome - Again, I'm glad they picked an archetype instead of being multifaceted. I just don't know that the game really needed a Small version of Eladrin, and I just don't see any real difference. I would like 4e Gnomes in a world that didn't have Eladrin.
Half-Orc - I'd have preferred just an Orc. Or just a Goliath.
Half-Elves - I'm not a fan of halfbreed races, and the Half-Elf just doesn't even make any sense (+Con?).


Warlord - because the melee-fighting Leader is awesome. Seriously, do you realize how often the "leader" of a party is actually best represented by a Warlord? Not to mention this archetype is still kinda fresh and new in D&D.
Rogue - Classic, classic fantasy.
Warlock - Actually fits the "edgy" feel of magic from most fantasy, much better than the Wizard.
Ranger - I dunno why, I've just always had a soft spot for Rangers.
Psion - because if magic isn't edgy, it's like this in fantasy literature. Still not like Wizards.
Shaman - About time they recognized what the Primal power source really should be sending out -- a leader type, a witch doctor type. Too bad it turned out so "meh" mechanically ...
Fighter - Actually fulfills the "tough guy" archetype with some flair.
Avenger - Vengeful fanaticism can be a lot of fun.
Bard - the 4e Bard actually managed to capture the classic "jack-of-all-trades" feel, the arcane factotum idea, rather than the "I go into dungeons and sing at the monsters" comic relief bard type. Mostly.
Barbarian - the other Primal class with a decent basis.
Wizard - for all that it's a D&D-specific idea, it can be rather cute in its own fashion.
Invoker - if a "priest" goes adventuring, this is what he should look like.
Warden - At least if a druid-type isn't a Leader, he should be a Defender (rather than a Controller who for some reason still pretends to be able to handle melee). But I don't like the name and wish they had either focused on the shapeshifted or dropped it, rather than the "he sort of shapeshifts" fluff we ended up with.
Paladin - meh, the alignment change doesn't inspire me much, since I still can't picture someone fighting in such a Defender/healer style unless they're the noble, self-sacrificing knight type. And I'm kind of tired of that type, a bit. I'd rather have the Fighter's or Avenger's ability to pulverize things.
Sorcerer - Meh, either this is the "generic arcanist" with no fluff explaining why he can do magic, or it's less-desirable fluff like dragon bloodlines. That, and I prefer a caster type to use more finesse, less "MOAR DAMAGE."
Druid - Like I mentioned above, I don't like the "sort of" melee role he plays. And a character who calls himself a "druid" should be a healer type. Controller stuff is ok too ... but shapeshifting, too? Why? Tries to do too many different things.
Cleric - not only is it something you rarely see outside of D&D, but ... I don't know. It just feels like either a healbot or a paladin, depending on its build, and I don't love either archetype. Mostly, though, it just really bugs me how little the differences are between Clerics of different gods (especially pre-Divine Power).

2010-01-30, 03:43 AM
Wow am I not going to be popular here!

PHB1 Races:

Dwarf - I love faking a scottish accent, durable, tough and make wicked clerics.
Human - Hey, I'm a sucker for something I can relate to.
Eladrin - They finally separated the "Wild, hunter elves" from the "Highborn, magic elves"!
Elves - See above

None I don't like other than the Tiefling. Just don't do it for me.

PHB1 Classes:

Paladin - Holy smiting batman!
Cleric - Holy healing robin!
Warlord - Less holy leading... joker?
Fighter - Battle rage is battle win.

PHB2 Races:

Shifter - My favorite race bar none. Something about having the primal spirit of the beast alive within you. Just awesome.
Goliath - Mountain man. Cool stuff.
Gnome - Lame as a Dwarf reject, awesome as a fey trickster.

PHB2 Classes:

Warden - The very mouth of the earth itself. Giving themselves as a conduit for the primal spirits themselves, the warden's voice is the mountain, his breath the wind. I love it.
Invoker - The word of the god's, made manifest!
Druid - They have learned of the world and through it find strength.
Avenger - The hit man of the gods. It's like John the Baptist with a poleaxe.
Sorcerer - Lightning bolting goodness. Crazy casting madness. Always fun.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-30, 04:24 AM
I have to stand up for my tieflings: my first 4e character was a tiefling. They are “Cunning, disquieting, imposing, mysterious, proud, rebellious, self-reliant, sinister, sly, unconventional.” I don’t read any of that inherently angsty.
Yeah, and they give themselves names like "sorrow", "weary" and "carrion", are explicitly said to "have a dark side to overcome", and have to "make their own way in a world that often fears and resents them". Nope, not angsty at all.

I'm sure that a single sentence, taken out of context, doesn't display angst, but if you look at their full description...

2010-01-30, 04:54 AM
Races I like:

Eladrin - Yay, magic-y fey elves.
Elves - Slightly lamer than they used to be because of the split, but still good.
Drow - Oh look, finally we're actually usable and not complete retards by default.
Gnomes - Badass and will frak you up
Genasi, especially voidsoul - I haven't played one, but I like 'em well enough. Though I wonder how the HELL the crystal-hair ones SLEEP.


Half-elves - I like half-elves usually, I really do, but 4E half-elves just do absolutely nothing at all for me. There's nothing at all elven about them and they really ARE just humans with pointy ears. So. Freaking. Boring. And. Lame. They only make fence because of lingering fondness. Give them some actual ELVENNESS and give them options for being half-eladrin and half-drow and we'll talk.
Dwarves - I don't actually hate Dwarves, but I've never played one and never will.
Half-orcs - Eh. They're OK.
Goliaths - Meh.
Wilden - Eh.
Githzerai - Eh.
Changelings - Meh


Tieflings - New look is terrible. So is new fluff.
Dragonboobs - No. Just no. Absolute no. Despise.
Deva - A terrible crappy replacement for a race that was actually awesome that has ensured that we will never see the race that was actually awesome.
Shifters - lolfurries
Humans - I play one IRL. Why would I want to play one in a game? Most boring race ever.
Minotaurs - Why is this a PC race. This is a monster. Go back to the MM.
Shardminds - Oh good grief. This is getting refluffed to be a 5x5x5 Gelatinous Cube with pseudopods.
Warforged - I don't like golems either.
Kalashtar - Yegh. Too Eberron-tied for me, and I'm not an Eberron fan.
Thri-kreen - Die. Horribly. In a fire.
Revenant - Ultimate emo. No.
Shadar-kai - Near-ultimate emo, and damn near a reskin of Eladrin. No.



Swordmage - Nearly perfect class, lacks only damage. Everything else is just perfect for me.
Seeker - Yes, yes, and more yes. I'm lovin' it.
Warlock, Fey Pact - Tee.
Cleric - I love religious characters.
Paladin - See cleric
Warlord - Martial without lameness.


Ranger - The Seeker does what I want from this class better than this class does it.
Rogue - Too limited.
Bard - I love Bards, but 4E Bard just does absolutely nothing for me. Not enough singing, not enough Bard-ness. Wands as implements is stupid and lame, and Valorous Bard, the actually interesting one to me, is just plain meh in practice when I've played it.
Invoker - I like divine classes. I like the idea of this. The time I played one I hated it and it was an absolute chore, although it was a WWGD pregen that actually really sucked, so maybe a decent one would be better.


Every primal class except the Seeker - None of them do anything for me and most of them I can't even figure out the point.
Every Psionic class - I HATE the seperate subsystem crap, it's what I hated about Psionics in 3.x and I hate it here too. I also hate the concept. Monk is also a class I hate independant of power source. Ardent is just CREEPY. Yuck yuck yuck.
Avenger - They managed to make a Divine class that I think has crappy fluff and is also incredibly boring and doesn't usually work well with a party in a party-oriented game. Yuck.
Assassin - Yucky fluff.
Fighter - The most boring concept imaginable and the eternal bastion of people who don't want to RP. I've never seen a decent fighter character-wise.
Sorceror - Never liked it.
Wizard - Never liked it either.
Artificer - Blegh.

Anything I've missed you can assume falls into either 'meh' or 'yuck'.

2010-01-30, 06:22 AM
Since I don't have the books, I'll be taking a very shallow look at the 4th edition races.

Deva - I'm a big fan of 40k, so I love the picture of the female deva. Okay, you can't see much of the deva herself under that armour, but does that matter?
Goliath - They no longer look like they've got an extremely uncomfortable skin condition. That's always a plus.
Half-Orc - I don't know what the new orcs look like, but having a nose instead of a pair of holes in their face definitely makes these half-orcs less ugly.

Don't like:
Dragonborn - Head tendrils, dragoncleavage, etc, etc. They fall squarely into the uncanny valley for me. If they didn't have a muzzle they might come closer to pulling it off.
Tiefling - I hate the new look. The unibrow horn is ugly and makes them look primitive, and the big, bulky tail just looks like it would get in the way.

2010-01-30, 11:48 AM
Yeah, and they give themselves names like "sorrow", "weary" and "carrion", are explicitly said to "have a dark side to overcome", and have to "make their own way in a world that often fears and resents them". Nope, not angsty at all.

I'm sure that a single sentence, taken out of context, doesn't display angst, but if you look at their full description...

And that's why they set off my "going to be played mostly by idiots" alarm. I ignore that part, go the "badass with demon blood" route, and am very happy with tieflings.

2010-01-30, 12:42 PM
Revenant - Ultimate emo. No.
I'd say that the Crow predates emo. It might be more Goth.

Fighter - The most boring concept imaginable and the eternal bastion of people who don't want to RP. I've never seen a decent fighter character-wise.

On Dragonborn: Anyone check out the Dragonborn book? Sadly I need to wait for like a month before I can compare it side by side with the Goodman Games Dragonborn book.

2010-01-30, 12:51 PM
Devas and Invokers are my favorite thus far. The appeal of being a divine batman, coupled with the "worship the entire cosmology" fluff and the "perpetual reincarnation machine" fluff appeals too me.

Not to mention, one slip and I'm a Rakshasa. Beats being a petitioner!

Kalashtar, Warforged, Genasi, Tieflings and Eladrin... and maybe Humans round out my top races.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-01-30, 01:53 PM
On Dragonborn: Anyone check out the Dragonborn book? Sadly I need to wait for like a month before I can compare it side by side with the Goodman Games Dragonborn book.

I'm no judge of mechanical stuff, but the new paragon paths and feats it has for dragonborn are pretty neat. Many of them pimp out your Dragon Breath power.

I really love the fluff they have. They give a great insight into the dragonborn mindset and how they operate. Fluff's a matter of personal taste though, so I'm sure some might not find it that good.

My only complaint is that it's pretty short. It's the first 4e book I've seen aside from the preview books that's in paperback rather than hardcover, and it's a pretty small paperback at that. It's okay, but I think they could have done a lot more with it.

2010-01-30, 03:57 PM
Fighter - The most boring concept imaginable and the eternal bastion of people who don't want to RP. I've never seen a decent fighter character-wise.


I can understand that not everyone loves swords as much as I do, but I hope you understand that despite any workings of a class or race you can have a good roleplayer, a good character and a good story.

2010-01-31, 04:14 AM
Top 5 Races

Half-Elf: Got something from everything. I like the background of an elven ancestor, and they have great racial features.
Tiefling: Making them a real race and not only a bloodline is a good decision. And i never liked the "I have little horns, nearly invisible, but i want to be cool and demonlike without having problems in cities." type of tieflings with horns not larger as my tieflings beard.

Tieflings need real horns!
Human: I like to be a human in this world. And it would be awesome to be a human in a fantasy world. You have to be tough, flexible and open minded. 4E humans are that.
Deva: The background opens story options about long forgotten tales and treasure. The racials features are some of the best in the game. And i like that they do not look humanlike with their two-coloured skin.
Half-Orcs: The new image of them looks surprisingly good and wild. And they always had fluff that is treating them as outsiders in a village, so ranger as a class fits perfectly.

Bottom 5

Halfling: Why play a kid and do not call it kid? It would be more interesting and you would not need a race of small things with childish behaviour
Warforged: Cool backstory, but i think they should stay in eberron. Also i do not like awakend robots. Why should i play a robot if my thoughts are not robotic? If i do not just follow my programming logic? As an item a robot is cool. As a player race it is simplified a human in a metal corpse. And there are already knights for this.
Genasi: Too much. I do not like flameable hair, electrifying hands or whatever they do. They have nothing than being elemental guys, and that is limiting them.
Changeling: Changing appearence should be a monster / spell thing
Minotaur: If i want something cowlike at my table i order myself a good steak.

Top 5 classes:

Wizard: There is still a simple rule in the game. If something is too unbelievable to even consider a human beeing do it you can always say:

A wizard did it. And it is true, because there is still few a wizard can not do.
Bard: If there's something hard - take a bard. The best ritual caster of the game, good in combat, awesome out of it. And still my role playing favourite.
Paladin: Striking real hard? No problem. Taking the hardest hits with only scratch? Actively saving your comrades? Sure. Character background? Hey, you are the impersonating of your gods ideals and those of your paladin order. Strong defenses, good offenses, ranged and melee powers. The only problem is that you cannot have all at the same time. And that you no longer have a special mount.
Assassin: The coolest class features and powers in the game. Also an awesome damage dealer and the ability to improvise weapons is very nice fluffwise. And it does not play like a rogue, neither fluffwise nor mechanical.
Warlord: Your in the army now...ohohoh, in the army now...SO STAND UP AND FIGHT! - 4E HP never made more sense than with a warlord who is simple pushing his comrades over the top of their limits.

Bottom 5 classes:

Warden: Ok, a woodland defender is not that bad. But they are too much controllery for me, and therefore feeling too much like some kind of more melee druid.
Invoker: Laser Cleric who has some cool class like the wizard as its opponent.
Psion: I do not like psionics. Point.
Artificer: Never found a good character background for this to play it.
Swordmage: Too much multiclassing inherit and too few unique things. If i want to play a fighter/wizard type multiclassing as fighter/wizard looks cooler to me.