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View Full Version : Which classes would benefit the most from an extra feat every four levels?



Talbot
2010-01-28, 05:53 PM
I'm playing in a game where characters get bonus feats at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th. I'm not looking for advice (I already have my class and build mostly finished, and while I am juggling two options for the last three levels or so, I'm not posting this with any intention of improving my character). I'm curious which classes the Playground thinks would benefit the most from six extra feats, and why. My initial thoughts:

Fighter- Can now do a second or third thing well, instead of being boxed into one or possibly two roles.

Factotum- Really benefits, because he can now load up on Font of Inspiration and still have room to specialize/tweak his repetoire.

Wizard- Obviously, more feats is better, but he's already so powerful it doesn't matter THAT much.

Rogue- Feels like he'd benefit, being able to amp his Sneak Attack and still having room for whatever else he needs.

Soulknife- As a super feat-starved class, they'd benefit. Basically just makes him a normal fighter with a soulblade, though.

Barbarian- Basically becomes the Barb/Fighter multiclass without actually having to multiclass.

Ranger- Room for the TWF tree and some more miscellaneous specialization.

Swordsage- Now fixing the recovery mechanic doesn't seem as expensive.

Warblade- Probably becomes the strongest melee class, as long as they're smart about their bonus feats.

I'm not going to comment on the other classes (at least not yet), either because I haven't played them enough or because I don't have a strong leaning. What's everyone else think?

Lapak
2010-01-28, 05:56 PM
All the Incarnum classes draw significant benefits from extra feats - they get regular feat-type benefits and a small boost to their general power from most of the relevant feats - so if you're using Magic of Incarnum you'll want to keep that in mind.

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 05:59 PM
Clerics would get the largest boost from extra feats, as they have a large number of potentials to take (Divine feats + regulars) without the slots available to do so.

The solution to the fighter... is not merely piling on more feats. :smallyuk:

Mongoose87
2010-01-28, 06:13 PM
This could make doing the Warblade/Swordsage1/Master of Nine 5 a lot easier. Or, the reverse, Swordsage/Warblade 1/Mo9.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-28, 06:20 PM
Those that benefit most are, of course, the classes with the most powerful feats. Ironically, that's the casters: you can take a full complement of metamagic feats and reserve feats, and still have room for improved initiative.

The fighter benefits least, since he already has more feats than he knows what to do with.

Kantolin
2010-01-28, 06:25 PM
Those that benefit most are, of course, the classes with the most powerful feats. Ironically, that's the casters: you can take a full complement of metamagic feats and reserve feats, and still have room for improved initiative.

I don't think that's quite true per se. If you were to give bonus feats out like crazy, it'd certainly help a wizard (or anyone), but not as much as others.

I think, analyzing the basic 11 classes, it'd most help rogues, clerics, and sorcerors. All three of those classes have a lot of things they'd really /like/ feats for but don't have the feats for it.

Honorable mention to Paladin and Bard, who also frequently are starving for feats. It'd help the others, but not as much - a barbarian would like the more feats, mind you, but can live without it.

It'd help the fighter and wizard the least, I think. Well, and also the druid who will still just as take natural spell, but druids need feats less than most.

sofawall
2010-01-28, 06:28 PM
From what I can extrapolate of the WotC design philosophy, fighter.

Mongoose87
2010-01-28, 06:46 PM
Truenamer. It practically better than the whole class.

T.G. Oskar
2010-01-28, 06:49 PM
Paladin. No, seriously, Paladin. You could give it extra feats, and the Pally wouldn't mind. In fact, it could help it a lot.

Paladins suffer from a pretty bad situation in terms of feat starvation. They can't follow much of the Fighter's feat chains because they have part of their feat tree compromised somewhat (you determine whether you want the mount or not, you'd need Mounted Combat to make it worthwhile). Furthermore, they have access to two feat trees by virtue of their very limited spellcasting and Turn Undead options (Metamagic which is a very sub-par option for them, and Divine Feats which are a gods-given blessing). Furthermore, Paladins are open to choices that other classes may not access with ease (depending on your gaming style and your gaming pals' gaming style, Exalted feats are almost a recommendation), and even then, Paladins have exclusive feats for them. In response, they have the same amount of feats that everyone else has. And Core doesn't help them, either: they can't use Metamagic very well, they aren't suited for Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack is a nice choice but they are expected to have a shield somehow, and their MAD doesn't make them good for Combat Expertise. In exchange, the Combat Form feats' Wisdom requirement benefits Paladins quite well (I wouldn't say immensely, but fast healing is no joke either), the Shield line (offense/defense) makes far more sense for them than for the other martial characters save perhaps for the ToBers, and they can make a decent use of Martial Study/Martial Stance.

So...I find it odd that Paladins don't get bonus feats without sacrificing their spellcasting, which is in many ways a worse trade than simply giving them the feats after 6th level or so. Thus, they make good choices for granting bonus feats without unmaking the game.

DementedFellow
2010-01-28, 06:49 PM
Why didn't you include the Sorcerer? They get spellcasting and a familiar. Wizards get bonus feats and scribe scroll. No love for the Sorc.

Eldariel
2010-01-28, 06:50 PM
Cleric, probably. You could DMM efficiently even with Nightsticks out of the equation, you could afford multiples of the incredible divine feats, you'd also have some room for metamagic, metamagic reducers, combat feats, etc. Oh, and entry requirements to some PrCs (Dweomerkeeper...).

Honestly, I'd say even with the Domains granting some bonuses, the Cleric is the most feat-starved class in the game. Archivist would be another major beneficiary as it's like Cleric except doesn't even have the Domain bonuses and would also want feats to expand Dark Knowledge.


Wizard & Sorc can generally make do with just metamagic-stuff, and Druid has few metamagic and the Druid-feats; Druids tend to actually have a plentitude of feats as long as they focus on either Wildshape combat, Summoning, Generic Casting or AC.

And Fighter...well, yeah, the more feats, the worse each extra feat gets. Monk...it doesn't even qualify for anything impressive. Though it'd benefit a ton since you'd at least be able to pick up Pounce and such. And Pally would benefit a great deal and Rogue wouldn't mind either. Artificer wouldn't really gain that much. Warblade, Swordsage & Crusader would all love this. Scout and Ranger wouldn't really care (outside dualwield Crossbows or something of the sort). Factotum would obviously shine.


Basically, anything would love this, of course, but the classes with feats they can just take ad nauseam over and over again for constant gains would love this the most, especially the ones without a normal bonus feat source.

ericgrau
2010-01-28, 06:50 PM
I'm gonna agree that the more feat starved classes would benefit more, except the full casters who are just dandy w/o them. Barbarian, paladin and rogue fit the bill. A martial focused cleric could benefit too. Bards are out, at least in core, since they don't have that many applications for feats.

Eldariel
2010-01-28, 06:58 PM
I'm gonna agree that the more feat starved classes would benefit more, except the full casters who are just dandy w/o them. Barbarian, paladin and rogue fit the bill. A martial focused cleric could benefit too. Bards are out, at least in core, since they don't have that many applications for feats.

Well, in Core, casters have:
Spell Penetration & Greater
Metamagic (Extend, Quicken mostly)
Crafting (Wondrous Items, Rods & Magic Arms & Armor especially)
Spell Focuses
PrC Prerequisites

And class-specific feats (Natural Spell, Improved Familiar, etc.); this is not to say they need the feats, but I feel in Core they definitely have the most worthwhile feats to take as those tend to actually carry enough bang to pick out-of-core too. Well, they and mounted combatants. Yeah, I think martial Cleric or Druid with Wildshape combat related feats would be the biggest beneficiaries though.

CTLC
2010-01-28, 07:02 PM
warlock, or more SPs
but seriously such a great class weakened by lack of skill points and normal feats.

sonofzeal
2010-01-28, 07:33 PM
The classes that would benefit the most are those that {a} have a whole lot of feats they'd really like to have, and {b} don't get a lot of bonus feats.

Fighter's solidly out because of {b}. Wizards and Monks (as unlikely a pair as you'll ever find) suffer from {a} and {b} too, to some degree.

IMO, the ones that benefit most are non-Fighter physical classes. Casters have feats that are nice, but few that are needed for any particular build, certainly not like Weapon Finesse and TWF are for the Rogue. However, this category does includes both Cleric and Druid if they're building towards physical melee combat, but also solidly covers Barbarians, Rogues, and Paladins. Rangers already get bonus feats, so they get a little less here, but it still helps.

ericgrau
2010-01-28, 08:12 PM
Well, in Core, casters have:
They would certainly benefit, but I think others benefit more and casters can be almost fully functional without any feats. Especially with the right spell choices. Unless you mean casters are better so therefore any resource is better given to them. I don't want to get in to that, but I can say relative to what the class already has, they get less.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-28, 08:33 PM
Fighter's solidly out because of {b}. Wizards and Monks (as unlikely a pair as you'll ever find) suffer from {a} and {b} too, to some degree.

I dunno if it matters for monks, but if you go outside of core, wizards have a ridiculous amount of good feat options. When you consider that plenty of good PrCs(incantatrix, Iot7V, Archmage) require a hefty feat investment to get in, bonus feats look pretty juicy for them.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-28, 09:02 PM
Barbarian- Basically becomes the Barb/Fighter multiclass without actually having to multiclass.

Except there are some combat feats you specifically need levels in fighter for.

Also I say go rogue. There are a ton of feats out there that can improve them.

Pyro_Azer
2010-01-28, 09:32 PM
I would have to say cleric. When the DM does not allow the stacking of nightsticks than this allows you to pick up a bunch of extra turning.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-28, 09:43 PM
Tashalatora monks can never have enough feats. Especially if you dip into ToB. So much stuff you can choose from...

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 09:43 PM
I'm going to add Paladin to my earlier post - they could really use the help. They get (very) nice things in Spell Compendium, but they have even less leeway between divine and martial feats.

sonofzeal
2010-01-28, 09:46 PM
I dunno if it matters for monks, but if you go outside of core, wizards have a ridiculous amount of good feat options. When you consider that plenty of good PrCs(incantatrix, Iot7V, Archmage) require a hefty feat investment to get in, bonus feats look pretty juicy for them.
Well... there's nice feats out there, but what do they really need? Even outside of core, "Improved Initiative" is one of really solid ones, and unless you're going hardcore Metamagic Reduction, there really isn't an extensive list, certainly little in the "omg I need that feat for my build to function" territory. Most non-casters rely on feats as much as class abilities to contribute, but most casters could do alright without any feats. There are feats that help a Clericzilla, but none are really essential for the concept. There are feats that help a Batman Wizard, but none are really essential for the concept. Feats are a luxury for most spellcasters, and a necessity for most non-casters. And need beats greed, y'know?

Honestly, it's just like how non-casters need gold more than casters, and hence get more out of high-wealth games. Casters have all sorts of things to spend money on too, but it's a much bigger impact on the low-power classes who need that gold to cover their bases in the first place.