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Dr.Epic
2010-01-28, 09:25 PM
Seriously, in Unearthed Arcana, I don't see the appeal in not gaining a level (thus losing potential hit points, skill points, increased saves, increased BAB, and other features) just so you can get a bonus to a skill, ability score, or other minor character ability. Can someone explain why these things are helpful?

Mongoose87
2010-01-28, 09:26 PM
Well, you do get to add to every class you have.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-28, 09:26 PM
two words

character concept

Kallisti
2010-01-28, 09:28 PM
In before Hellfire Warlock abuse.

Pyro_Azer
2010-01-28, 09:28 PM
Well, you do get to add to every class you have.

Including (possibly) going higher in a classes ability progressions than the class itself would allow.

9mm
2010-01-28, 09:33 PM
Cheeze, glorious, glorious, limburger cheeze.

Glimbur
2010-01-28, 09:34 PM
It's like LA you acquire piecemeal. If they hadn't been invented by WotC, and were posted in the homebrew forum here, I would ask what the homebrewer was thinking, and suggest a PrC instead. That way, you get special abilities, but also hit dice and saves and such. Make it so that you can't take all the levels in the PrC one after the other and you're set.

Or just make a racial class for a descendant of a bloodline to take 1-20+. That would... be somewhat different, and require lots of homebrewing.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-28, 09:36 PM
two words

character concept

So anti-powergaming?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-28, 09:38 PM
So anti-powergaming?

you could call it that yes.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-28, 09:41 PM
The point of bloodlines is the same as the point of the vampire's listed LA. Nothing at all. They're only useful for anti-powergaming (Stormwind Fallacy lol?) and over-powergaming (poorly worded clause about improving levels)

Mushroom Ninja
2010-01-28, 09:47 PM
So anti-powergaming?

Actually, though I'll admit that I'm no expert on bloodlines, I've always heard that they are a bit on the overpowered side.

Demons_eye
2010-01-28, 09:52 PM
Take Warblade 3/Swordsage 3/Crusdaer 3/Bloodline 3. You are now effectively a Warblade 6/Swordsage 6/Crusdaer 6 with 9 class levels and 3 LA.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-28, 10:04 PM
ANY level in a bloodline advances any classes' per-level abiliities. Such as, say, the hellfire warlock's boost to eldritch blast, or pretty much any standard class ability. Take say 3-4 classes with such abilities (ALL the precision damage abilities, among others, and then stack a few levels of bloodline on.

EDIT: Such as ToB, for example...damn shadow hand ninjas...

Dr.Epic
2010-01-29, 11:18 PM
ANY level in a bloodline advances any classes' per-level abiliities. Such as, say, the hellfire warlock's boost to eldritch blast, or pretty much any standard class ability. Take say 3-4 classes with such abilities (ALL the precision damage abilities, among others, and then stack a few levels of bloodline on.

EDIT: Such as ToB, for example...damn shadow hand ninjas...

Yeah but you gain nothing else from the class:

You gain no HP.
You gain no skill points.
You gain no increase to BAB or saves if you were going to.
You gain none of the class features you would have gotten.

Instead all you get is like an ability boost, or skill boost, or +2 to diplomacy and bluff when talking to a member of your bloodline. I admit those would be so bad but the xp penalty for not talking a level in bloodline seems like something that's gonna mess you up at some point.

Mongoose87
2010-01-29, 11:21 PM
Yeah but you gain nothing else from the class:

You gain no HP.
You gain no skill points.
You gain no increase to BAB or saves if you were going to.
You gain none of the class features you would have gotten.

Instead all you get is like an ability boost, or skill boost, or +2 to diplomacy and bluff when talking to a member of your bloodline. I admit those would be so bad but the xp penalty for not talking a level in bloodline seems like something that's gonna mess you up at some point.

Did you not see the part where you could get maneuvers as three classes at once? What more can you ask for(except spellcasting)?

Thrawn183
2010-01-29, 11:23 PM
You might also pick up a feat along the way. Frankly, I only really look at the major bloodlines, but they're really cool.

It also helps with dead levels.

FishAreWet
2010-01-29, 11:26 PM
Bloodlines are how you get quadruple 9s.

Bloodlines are one of the most broken(and complicated) systems in the game. Don't allow them unless your players don't optimize.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-29, 11:29 PM
Yeah but you gain nothing else from the class:

You gain no HP.
You gain no skill points.
You gain no increase to BAB or saves if you were going to.
You gain none of the class features you would have gotten.

Instead all you get is like an ability boost, or skill boost, or +2 to diplomacy and bluff when talking to a member of your bloodline. I admit those would be so bad but the xp penalty for not talking a level in bloodline seems like something that's gonna mess you up at some point.

...Who cares about three levels' worth of HP and skill points? Or three levels of BaB? Even if you're a full 1/1 BaB class, that's not much of a loss.

Instead, you gain extra uses or boosted power for class abilities that scale with level. In every class you have. So a Rogue 3/Ninja 3/Spellthief 3/Bloodline 3, for instance, will deal +8d6 damage per attack to a flatfooted opponent. At ECL 12, when a Rogue would normally only be doing 6d6, and a Rogue 4/Ninja 4/Spellthief 4 would only be doing 5d6.

It gets even more ridiculous with, say, martial maneuvers.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-29, 11:35 PM
...Who cares about three levels' worth of HP and skill points? Or three levels of BaB? Even if you're a full 1/1 BaB class, that's not much of a loss.

Instead, you gain extra uses or boosted power for class abilities that scale with level. In every class you have. So a Rogue 3/Ninja 3/Spellthief 3/Bloodline 3, for instance, will deal +8d6 damage per attack to a flatfooted opponent. At ECL 12, when a Rogue would normally only be doing 6d6, and a Rogue 4/Ninja 4/Spellthief 4 would only be doing 5d6.

It gets even more ridiculous with, say, martial maneuvers.

Okay, I can see an advantage, but I still think they're silly and doubt I'll ever play one.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-29, 11:36 PM
They are silly. But there is a point - overt power abuse. :smallwink:

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-30, 07:54 AM
Yeah but you gain nothing else from the class:

You gain no HP.
You gain no skill points.
You gain no increase to BAB or saves if you were going to.
You gain none of the class features you would have gotten.

Instead all you get is like an ability boost, or skill boost, or +2 to diplomacy and bluff when talking to a member of your bloodline. I admit those would be so bad but the xp penalty for not talking a level in bloodline seems like something that's gonna mess you up at some point.

You do gain a lot of the class features for a lot of classes. Anything with a fixed progression apart from spellcasting progresses normally.

Oh, and the main line you're missing? 'Levels in Bloodline don't increase your character level like class levels do'

Your ECL is the same, your XP to next level is the same, and you gain XP faster if the rest of your party took class levels.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-30, 10:45 AM
Okay, so ECL works as normal but not XP.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-30, 11:00 AM
The other option is to use the Titan's Major Bloodline and wield a Gargantuan weapon as a Halfling.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-30, 11:04 AM
You do gain a lot of the class features for a lot of classes. Anything with a fixed progression apart from spellcasting progresses normally.

Oh, and the main line you're missing? 'Levels in Bloodline don't increase your character level like class levels do'

Your ECL is the same, your XP to next level is the same, and you gain XP faster if the rest of your party took class levels.

First I already posted that I now see how bloodlines have some advantages.

Second while you would gain more xp being lower level, you're still lower level and once you do reach their level your going to get the amount of xp they get and be farther from leveling up. It's not like you could ever catch up to the rest of the party unless they all die and get res'd or you find a way to get serious xp for just yourself.

edit:

The other option is to use the Titan's Major Bloodline and wield a Gargantuan weapon as a Halfling.

Please explain. My brain temporarily exploded when I heard this.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 11:15 AM
Please explain. My brain temporarily exploded when I heard this.

Titan's can specifically use Gargantuan hammers. Take the Major Titan bloodline and you gain this ability at level 12, regardless of your base race.

Be a Pixie for extra lulz.

Flickerdart
2010-01-30, 11:36 AM
Titan's can specifically use Gargantuan hammers. Take the Major Titan bloodline and you gain this ability at level 12, regardless of your base race.

Be a Pixie for extra lulz.
Or a Jermlaine for bonus extra lulz.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-30, 11:39 AM
With Monkey Grip can you wield colossal at level 12?

Flickerdart
2010-01-30, 11:41 AM
With Monkey Grip can you wield colossal at level 12?
Nope, because the bloodline doesn't care what size you count as. You just get the Titan ability:

Oversized Weapon (Ex)

A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.

Lamech
2010-01-30, 11:42 AM
Everyone seems to be forgetting something important. The minimum levels refer to character level and since

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level
I also note that one can take those bloodline levels as early as they want so one could make a swordsage 1/warblade 1/crusader 1/bloodline three. In fact there is no limit to the number of bloodline levels you can take.

Also what are the rules for calculating fractional bab? Could we apply bloodlines to that for extra stupidity?

imperialspectre
2010-01-30, 11:51 AM
Yes, bloodlines are for cheating.

The idea that they're there to provide help for "character concepts" is fairly silly; practically nothing in Unearthed Arcana is mechanically suited for that as opposed to giving you new tricks on your way to "Power! Unlimited POWWWWEEEEERRRRRR!!!"

Lamech
2010-01-30, 11:59 AM
Yes, bloodlines are for cheating.

The idea that they're there to provide help for "character concepts" is fairly silly; practically nothing in Unearthed Arcana is mechanically suited for that as opposed to giving you new tricks on your way to "Power! Unlimited POWWWWEEEEERRRRRR!!!"
Recharge magic.
Tainted sorc.
Item Familiar.

imperialspectre
2010-01-30, 12:03 PM
I assume you're pointing out three of the most obvious bits of supporting evidence, since two of those radically increase the power of casters and the other is key to several hax.

My favorite one is probably Prestige Paladin, as it's wonderful for getting all kinds of different tricks going (for one thing, it's one of the simpler RAW methods of getting Divine War Weavers, which are hilariously awesome).

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-30, 12:07 PM
Lamech, I 1-up you with the PHB. Half the content is underpowered, the other half is absurdly OP'ed.


At least UA only has to worry about three little sections in a 100+ page book.

Lamech
2010-01-30, 12:07 PM
I assume you're pointing out three of the most obvious bits of supporting evidence, since two of those radically increase the power of casters and the other is key to several hax.

My favorite one is probably Prestige Paladin, as it's wonderful for getting all kinds of different tricks going (for one thing, it's one of the simpler RAW methods of getting Divine War Weavers, which are hilariously awesome).

Hmm... now that I re-read that sentence two or three times I see you were saying bloodlines are for "character concept" and everything else is for "unlimited power". That sentence confused me.

imperialspectre
2010-01-30, 12:19 PM
Sorry, my sentences can be overly complex. I meant to indicate that practically all of Unearthed Arcana is for hax and pretending it's "good RP material" is kind of silly.

Overshee
2010-01-30, 01:27 PM
Is gestalt+bloodlines as ridiculous as I think it could be?

FishAreWet
2010-01-30, 01:28 PM
Is gestalt+bloodlines as ridiculous as I think it could be?

yes4567890

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 01:29 PM
Is gestalt+bloodlines as ridiculous as I think it could be?

yes...:smalleek:

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 01:31 PM
Is gestalt+bloodlines as ridiculous as I think it could be?

Not really.

Gestalt+Bloodlines//Legacy Champion. Now that's ridiculous :smallcool: +28d6 Hellfire damage (with a dip into Binder of course) ftw.

Oslecamo
2010-01-30, 01:38 PM
I think you're forgeting a little detail about bloodlines

They do cost you a level, but they make you count as your old level for purposes of gaining exp. And reaching next level.



So altough you lag a little behind, you'll gain exp faster than someone who has taken actual LA.

Flickerdart
2010-01-30, 01:39 PM
Not really.

Gestalt+Bloodlines//Legacy Champion. Now that's ridiculous :smallcool: +28d6 Hellfire damage (with a dip into Binder of course) ftw.
That's only 98 damage with a standard action. By 20th level, it's not all that impressive compared to real cheese.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 01:44 PM
That's only 98 damage with a standard action. By 20th level, it's not all that impressive compared to real cheese.

Combine with Eldritch Glaive and Quicken SLA and it get's better. But yeah damage isn't paticularly cheezified.

Lamech
2010-01-30, 01:52 PM
They do cost you a level, but they make you count as your old level for purposes of gaining exp. And reaching next level.
...
So umm... I didn't belive this and checked it out. ... Your totally right.
...
So lets see, a sorc 2 needs to reack 3k xp to take a bloodline level. Then to take a sorc level he needs to reach... 3k xp. And bloodlines don't eat xp. Although he can still only level up once a session or adventure or whatever.

Oslecamo
2010-01-30, 01:55 PM
...
So umm... I didn't belive this and checked it out. ... Your totally right.
...
So lets see, a sorc 2 needs to reack 3k xp to take a bloodline level. Then to take a sorc level he needs to reach... 3k xp. And bloodlines don't eat xp.

Exactly. You can end up geting a lot of nice bonuses for what amounts to half-LA. And it's not worst than lagging behind for expending exp to craft magic items.



Although he can still only level up once a session or adventure or whatever.
Hmm, who said so? You can level up several times in a session/adventure, assuming you get enough exp to do so.

Magnor Criol
2010-01-30, 01:58 PM
Sorry, my sentences can be overly complex. I meant to indicate that practically all of Unearthed Arcana is for hax and pretending it's "good RP material" is kind of silly.

False. Much of it is good RP material. What's silly is pretending that it's only good RP material, and not also a key to hax. :smalltongue:

Sliver
2010-01-30, 01:59 PM
There is a rule that you can't level up more then once.. But it not a "per session" just per Xp granting or level upping, depends on how treated by the DM.

Oslecamo
2010-01-30, 02:02 PM
There is a rule that you can't level up more then once.. But it not a "per session" just per Xp granting or level upping, depends on how treated by the DM.

Ah, yes that may be true, but let's be honest, what's the chances you would get enough exp to level up twice from a single source?

Overshee
2010-01-30, 02:06 PM
So does it actually count as a level? Like, for non-epic games, is a BL1/XX19 the level cap? Does LA work the same way? I was never quite sure.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 02:12 PM
So does it actually count as a level? Like, for non-epic games, is a BL1/XX19 the level cap? Does LA work the same way? I was never quite sure.

Yes they do. Though you can of course buy off LA so it doesn't count anymore (just to confuse you again :smallwink:).

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-30, 02:13 PM
It doesn't count as a level for the purposes of character Level, so you could take Class X 20/Bloodlines20 and still be ECL20.

EDIT: It also means that ClassX5/Bloodline does not qualify for leadership, for example.

Though you probably never would.

And yeah, Gestalting bloodlines is up there with the cheesiest builds built, even not hugely optimised.

Coidzor
2010-01-30, 02:20 PM
There is a rule that you can't level up more then once.. But it not a "per session" just per Xp granting or level upping, depends on how treated by the DM.

I always read that as per source of XP, which depending upon how you wanna do it would either be per creature or per actual encounter. But then again, it's likely that if a creature would give enough xp to level up it's probably the only creature in the encounter. Or some kind of dice-miracle that one survived...

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 02:27 PM
It doesn't count as a level for the purposes of character Level, so you could take Class X 20/Bloodlines20 and still be ECL20.

EDIT: It also means that ClassX5/Bloodline does not qualify for leadership, for example....

Really?


a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

So you could be Class X 17/Bloodline 3 and be ECL20. Unless I'm mistaken.

Sliver
2010-01-30, 02:32 PM
I always read that as per source of XP, which depending upon how you wanna do it would either be per creature or per actual encounter. But then again, it's likely that if a creature would give enough xp to level up it's probably the only creature in the encounter. Or some kind of dice-miracle that one survived...

That means that you can level up mid-battle.. I think it is more common to level up at down time, between sessions or at the end of a (in game) day if you can do it fast.

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 02:52 PM
That means that you can level up mid-battle.. I think it is more common to level up at down time, between sessions or at the end of a (in game) day if you can do it fast.

Yeah. Most DM's, like me, only total up XP earned once per session. It makes the flow better...no one stops to level up in the middle of a session.

Vauron
2010-01-30, 03:23 PM
Really?


a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

So you could be Class X 17/Bloodline 3 and be ECL20. Unless I'm mistaken.



do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does


do not increase a character's character level
You are mistaken.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 03:29 PM
You are mistaken.

So there's no downside to taking a bloodline because they don't increase your level anyway?

Now I'm really confused.

Lamech
2010-01-30, 03:29 PM
Exactly. You can end up geting a lot of nice bonuses for what amounts to half-LA. And it's not worst than lagging behind for expending exp to craft magic items.

But you don't expend any xp.
Ex: A sorc level 2 has 3k xp, he can now level up. He chooses a bloodline level. He still has three thousand xp.
Now the sorc 2/blood 1 still has three thousand xp. He is still character level 2 so he needs 3k xp to level up. He still has enough xp to level.

Its not like crafting, its like being handed free ablities. Its completely and totally borked.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-30, 03:43 PM
^The man gets it. RAW it has no effect on your level.

Mongoose87
2010-01-30, 03:45 PM
This could be nice for increasing Manifester Level.

Overshee
2010-01-30, 03:45 PM
O.o

SO RIDICULOUS.

I can't even comprehend how they thought this was a good idea!

Mongoose87
2010-01-30, 03:46 PM
O.o

SO RIDICULOUS.

I can't even comprehend how they thought this was a good idea!

I suspect that they wanted to make it count as that character level, but they worded it badly. Should've just said it adds +1 LA.

Weezer
2010-01-30, 03:49 PM
I agree with Mongoose, they just failed (as usual) at creating something that actually does what it was intended to do.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-30, 03:51 PM
Should have just said you can gain a bloodline rank instead of levelling by reducing your xp to the start of the previous level.

The most common rule is that it replaces your level, and even then it's still very powerful in a lot of ways. As-is, it's horrendous.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 03:52 PM
But you don't expend any xp.
Ex: A sorc level 2 has 3k xp, he can now level up. He chooses a bloodline level. He still has three thousand xp.
Now the sorc 2/blood 1 still has three thousand xp. He is still character level 2 so he needs 3k xp to level up. He still has enough xp to level.

Its not like crafting, its like being handed free ablities. Its completely and totally borked.

Free stuff WOOO!!!! Thanks for letting me know this. I always thought it cost 3 levels.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-30, 03:52 PM
But you don't expend any xp.
Ex: A sorc level 2 has 3k xp, he can now level up. He chooses a bloodline level. He still has three thousand xp.
Now the sorc 2/blood 1 still has three thousand xp. He is still character level 2 so he needs 3k xp to level up. He still has enough xp to level.

Its not like crafting, its like being handed free ablities. Its completely and totally borked.

So why did the book say: if you don't take the free level: you get an XP Penalty? What idiot decides not to accept free stuff?

Lamech
2010-01-30, 03:55 PM
So why did the book say: if you don't take the free level: you get an XP Penalty? What idiot decides not to accept free stuff?
It was not RAI to hand out free stuff.
Bloodlines are fail. I have no clue what RAI is, but raw they are broken. I suppose they are still a level, so you still end up one xp point away from leveling. (So a level 2 sorc with three thousand xp who takes a bloodline level goes down to 2999 xp.)

Siosilvar
2010-01-30, 03:59 PM
RAI for Bloodlines was probably you go back to the start of the current level - a Level 2 Sorc who takes his Bloodline level goes back to 1000 XP.

Either that or LA that adds to class-level-determined effects (save DCs, caster level, etc).

Moak
2010-01-30, 05:00 PM
Uhm...isn't it that you must get XP to level up again?

Like...

Sorcerer. I need 2000 px to get the 3rd level (from 1000 to 3000).
I take a level in "major bloodline".
Now I am a Sorcerer 2 with bloodline(1)

Now I want to became Sorcerer 3 bloodline(1)
I am going to take px to get from 2nd to 3rd Sorcerer level....thus,I need 2000 px (3000-1000) even if I actually already has 3000 px...

Practically,they "move" your level up in tot px....you actually take 3rd "class" level at 5000 px

I always intended it this way :O

So,to get to 20,you don't need 200000 px,but 200000+11000+5000+2000=218000 max px...like if you had spended 18k PX crafting something during your PC life span..

(optimization of PX ilarity ensues....)

Starbuck_II
2010-01-30, 05:07 PM
Uhm...isn't it that you must get XP to level up again?

Nope. PHB is very strict that for the next character level you must equal that amount. ECL increases Character level. Bloodlines don't by RAW.


Sorcerer. I need 2000 px to get the 3rd level (from 1000 to 3000).
I take a level in "major bloodline".
Now I am a Sorcerer 2 with bloodline(1)

Now I want to became Sorcerer 3 bloodline(1)
I am going to take px to get from 2nd to 3rd Sorcerer level....thus,I need 2000 px (3000-1000) even if I actually already has 3000 px...

Nope. That is not it.
You use the Chart. D&D is all about charts.

So when you reach level 2 you must have reached: 1000 XP.
If you haven't than you aren't level 2, if you have you leveled.

So Bloodlines either count for character level (but it says they don't like LA do) or they do (which is LA).


I always intended it this way :O


Yeah, but game isn't written to not use the charts.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-30, 07:54 PM
I have a handbook on 339 about this guys...
It doesn't count as a level for the purposes of character Level, so you could take Class X 20/Bloodlines20 and still be ECL20.

EDIT: It also means that ClassX5/Bloodline does not qualify for leadership, for example.

... Gestalting bloodlines is up there with the cheesiest builds built, even not hugely optimised.Fixed that last thing. But ya, you have it going on like Donkey Kong.
But you don't expend any xp.yes... you do. It costs the same as leveling up at your particular level. Its just relying on common sense for you to understand why it uses the 'level' language at all. That who cumbersomeness about taking a level wasn't thrown in for fun.
I can't even comprehend how they thought this was a good idea!As long as you understand you should pay the XP cost, its just an immediate LA buyoff with spaced benefits (the opposite of buying off an LA race).
So why did the book say: if you don't take the free level: you get an XP Penalty? What idiot decides not to accept free stuff?
Nope. PHB is very strict that for the next character level you must equal that amount.Obviously it should should be considered XP cost. This is why it is 'taking a level' even if it doesn't count against your ECL. Otherwise its just arguing semantics. Even though they don't count against ECL, Bloodlines are levels. Levels cost XP. I and most other DMs are not interested in the definition

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-30, 07:55 PM
Take Warblade 3/Swordsage 3/Crusdaer 3/Bloodline 3. You are now effectively a Warblade 6/Swordsage 6/Crusdaer 6 with 9 class levels and 3 LA.Wrong. Those are 'by-chart' abilities. They are not formulaic.
Bloodlines are how you get quadruple 9s.

Bloodlines are one of the most broken(and complicated) systems in the game. Don't allow them unless your players don't optimize.?Pre-epic, non-ascended, non-gestalt?

Put up or shut up. I've got a 9/9/9/5 build off the main lists :smallcool:. That last 9 simply isn't possible unless you blow your WBL, but that's like buying spells.
practically all of Unearthed Arcana is for haxShow me them hax! UA feels like a normal splat to me: it slightly increases character power overall - it just doesn't do so evenly.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-30, 08:10 PM
PHB: "For any character, XP determines overall character level, not individual class levels."

Bloodlines don't affect Character level, so as soon s you've gained a bloodline level, you still have the XP needed to take your next class level.

Flaws are a generic method everyone uses to boost their character power, and some of the other stuff is actually broken.

Tainted Sorcerer isn't as bad as Tainted Scholar, but is still above broken, and can give save DCs in the 50+ easily.

Lamech
2010-01-31, 04:11 PM
yes... you do. It costs the same as leveling up at your particular level. Its just relying on common sense for you to understand why it uses the 'level' language at all.Using common sense tells me that is certainly not RAI. It also tells me that simply burning a few xp points for a bonus caster level and an increase to max skill points is also a horrible idea. But thats not the rules. Levels DO NOT cost xp. They require xp.


That who cumbersomeness about taking a level wasn't thrown in for fun.As long as you understand you should pay the XP cost, its just an immediate LA buyoff with spaced benefits (the opposite of buying off an LA race).Obviously it should should be considered XP cost. This is why it is 'taking a level' even if it doesn't count against your ECL. Otherwise its just arguing semantics. Even though they don't count against ECL, Bloodlines are levels. Levels cost XP. I and most other DMs are not interested in the definitionUmm... no levels do not cost xp. They require a certain xp total. This is very clear.


Wrong. Those are 'by-chart' abilities. They are not formulaic.?Pre-epic, non-ascended, non-gestalt?

Err... well they are not level 6 in each. But they do get access to 9th level manuevers. Which really hurts balance.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-31, 10:54 PM
Wrong. Those are 'by-chart' abilities. They are not formulaic.

Initiator level, and therefore highest-level maneuvers known, is formulaic.

It's level + 1/2 of all other levels. In the case of a Warblade 3/Swordsage 3/Crusader 3/Bloodline 3, he adds:

Three to each of his initiator levels from the bloodline levels.
Half of his levels in the other two classes plus three from the bloodline levels (3).

Therefore, his initiator level for each class is 9. Even with the most balanced reading, he has three classes with an initiator level of 9 at level twelve.

RAW, at level nine.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-01, 03:20 AM
That's still only access to 5th level maneuvers.

Lamech
2010-02-01, 07:45 AM
Hmm... crap it appears martial adept levels only count for half if they are being added. Regardless those other classes still count as 3 more than normal so its 6+9 or 15. And of course prestige classes.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-01, 09:13 AM
It doesn't work like that...you'd still only be at IL9 in each class....at ECL9. Yeah...

Susano-wo
2010-02-03, 08:47 PM
"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected. "

Its a sort-of half level. It counts for your To Next Level total, so yes, its exactly like a LA in that regard. Though crap, I never think of SA, etc at "per level" abilities, since its written in multiple lines on the class progression chart, but damn! That aspect really is abusable, unless your GM puts his/her fiat foot down and limits it.

Then again, unless you are using several multiple classes, its a lot like a partial combo prestige class, so I'm not sure how terrible it is.

Still, the intent I think, was really to provide flavor without needed to make a whole new race for "Human who has Dragon somewhere down the line"

One last tidbit seeing the posts that have been posted whilst I wrote this: "Wrong. Those are 'by-chart' abilities. They are not formulaic." I thought this too, until I looked up the rogue SA. It states in the ability that it goes up at Rogue3 and every other after that.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-03, 09:28 PM
It doesn't work like that...you'd still only be at IL9 in each class....at ECL9. Yeah...

The point, however, is that you initiate maneuvers at IL9 for three classes at ECL 9. Which means you have access to every 5th level maneuver in the book, which shouldn't be possible until at least ECL 18.

(Well, okay, levels in Master of Nine gets it earlier, but certainly not as early as ECL 9.)

Edit: And, after re-reading my post... I really think I got the math wrong there.

Shouldn't he be adding 6 to his IL, not 3? So it'd be IL12 per class?

Susano-wo
2010-02-03, 10:10 PM
NO, you add half of non adept levels. BLoodline levels are their own levels, so while the levels count for the calulation, they are non adept levels :P
Also, again, its ECL 12 in the previous example. Bloodlines cost you XP the same way other levels do

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-04, 04:27 AM
Level's DON'T COST XP. You have a total XP, and when it hits a certain value, you take the next level. Unfortunately, it's calculated by ECL, and so your bloodline level doesn't count against that total by RAW.

Sliver
2010-02-04, 05:04 AM
Shouldn't he be adding 6 to his IL, not 3? So it'd be IL12 per class?

If you have 3 IL3 classes and BL3 too, then each has IL6 which is half added to the other class, so they have 3(original)+6(2 classes with IL6)+3(bloodline). So IL12 at ECL9, Yup.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-04, 05:06 AM
Ah, no, it's half the class level for the other two, not half the IL.

Sliver
2010-02-04, 05:19 AM
Makes sense.. Then IL9..

Lamech
2010-02-04, 05:54 AM
Ah, no, it's half the class level for the other two, not half the IL. Doesn't change a thing because bloodline levels are included when calculating anything based off class level.


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels...
For each class.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities. Each class gets the benefits so for example a swordsage 3/warblade 3/crusader 3/bloodline 3 has a warblade IL = levels of warblade+ levels of bloodline +1/2(swordsage levels +bloodline levels + crusader levels +bloodline levels + bloodline levels*)=13

*Yes it is a class, so yes it does get counted. So you get IL 13 at ECL 9

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-04, 05:59 AM
It doesn't say for each class. It says for each class's abilities, not that each class counts twice. So it counts towards each set of IL, but doesn't count towards other class levels for a different class's abilities.

Susano-wo
2010-02-04, 06:33 PM
goddamit ><
I didn 't want to beleve this, but:
"For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains."

Its very specific that bloodline levels are not the same as character levels, so yeah, they don't count as ECL. They are basically paying XP penalty as per magic items, etc. SO basically, a character does best by putting all of their bloodline levels in before they hit Char level 2, right? Gimps them at first in a lot of ways, but basically means that they have a 1000 to 3000XP cost depending on power, rather than a possibly much greater cost?

SO basically it boils down to make bloodlines a 'level' in the ECL calculation, so that it is still a viable option, but not a broken (and stupidly convoluted) one.