4e question on wintertouched/lasting frost

[Goonthegoof]

Would using Freezing Arrows (from phb2) work for the purposes of wintertouched/lasting frost?

[Inyssius Tor]

The ammunition from AV2, you mean? Nope; it adds cold damage, but doesn't add the cold keyword.

(Frost weapons do, however, and that enchantment can be applied to bows.)

[Goonthegoof]

Excellent, thanks.

[Dimers]

(Frost weapons do, however, and that enchantment can be applied to bows.)

They do?! Huh ... *goes to read book* Iiiinteresting. Okay, so PHB says that the item's keyword applies if you use that item in a racial or class power. Does that mean that basic attacks don't gain items' keywords? :smallconfused:

[HMS Invincible]

Ask your dm if it works anyway, can't hurt.

[Inyssius Tor]

Does that mean that basic attacks don't gain items' keywords? :smallconfused:

You're getting that from the passage on page 192, right?

Well... looking at the passage again, there are two separate issues there.

Note that that sentence has two separate clauses. Magic item powers with a certain keyword trigger feats which depend on that keyword, and racial/class/feat powers with said keyword also trigger feats which depend on that keyword.

Certain magic item powers, like the frost weapon's at-will Cold power, actually add that keyword to whatever power they modify (in the frost weapon's case, all of them). There are concrete sources for that, but they're obscure and I'm not going to go dig them up.

So the relevant bit is the second part, which oddly appears to specify that only racial, class, and feat powers may be modified by keyword-based feats.

That's... weird, since I'm pretty sure that melee and ranged basic attacks can in fact be modified by feats. Huh. Anyone got a clue on that?

[Goonthegoof]

Other question: Would a Frozen Whetstone work? It has the cold keyword, seems to meet the requirements.

[Goonthegoof]

So, anyone know if a Frozen Whetstone would fulfill the requirements for wintertouched?

[Kurald Galain]

So, anyone know if a Frozen Whetstone would fulfill the requirements for wintertouched?

Unless the whetstone explicitly states that it adds the "cold" keyword to a weapon or power, it doesn't.

[Inyssius Tor]

Unless the whetstone explicitly states that it adds the "cold" keyword to a weapon or power, it doesn't.

That ruling would seem to apply equally and in the same way to the frost weapon, but we've been told that it doesn't. What's the difference?

[Mordokai]

Since the topic is already opened, I'm gonna use it for my own purpose and I hope OP won't mind too much.

Barbarian paragon path, Winter Fury enables you to change all the untyped damage to cold damage, on level 16. Would this feat combo work with this or do I need to take frost weapon for it to work?

Effectively, this adds cold descriptor to any power without the descriptor, but I'm not sure what the RAW has to say to it.

[Blackfang108]

Since the topic is already opened, I'm gonna use it for my own purpose and I hope OP won't mind too much.

Barbarian paragon path, Winter Fury enables you to change all the untyped damage to cold damage, on level 16. Would this feat combo work with this or do I need to take frost weapon for it to work?

Effectively, this adds cold descriptor to any power without the descriptor, but I'm not sure what the RAW has to say to it.

Sounds like it would.

[Kurald Galain]

That ruling would seem to apply equally and in the same way to the frost weapon, but we've been told that it doesn't. What's the difference?
The difference is that PHB page 226 points out, "When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the items power and the other power all apply", and that no such provision exists for having used a (consumable) magic item at some earlier point.



Barbarian paragon path, Winter Fury enables you to change all the untyped damage to cold damage, on level 16. Would this feat combo work with this or do I need to take frost weapon for it to work?
Unfortunately, "doing cold damage" is distinct from "having the cold keyword". Personally, I think that making this distinction is a really stupid rule, but nevertheless WOTC considers it to be RAW.

(so short answer: it's not RAW but sounds both RAI and reasonable, and personally I would allow it)

Where was I? Oh yeah. The overarching problem here is apparently caused by different designers having different ideas. It is eminently logical that using a thunder weapon would make everything you do deal thunder damage instead. However, it is not necessarily logical that feats like Resounding Thunder were supposed to work on every single power that you have.

Through various loopholes it is possible to e.g. have a wizard channel all his spells through a thundering bola (YA RLY) and make all his powers push, prone, and immobilize all their targets in addition to what they normally do. Some people argue that to counteract this cheese, items that add keywords to powers need to be strongly restricted. I don't actually agree; I think that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Noble Savant]

I'll just make a final point to clarify the matter. Cold Damage does not trigger Lasting Frost. By the RAW at least, I recommend telling your DM that this is stupid.

By the RAI, if it states that you gain the cold keyword, (which does not in fact require you to be dealing cold damage with the power, it could deal necrotic damage for all the feat cares), then you get all the benefits of lasting frost.

[BobTheDog]

This is just a very-vague IIRC, but IIRC, there's some mention of "if a power deals damage of a certain type, that power has that certain keyword" somewhere... Might be unofficial, like a dev blog or the podcast or something...

[randomhero00]

And why does the wintertouched/lasting frost feats give one combat advantage?

[Inyssius Tor]

And why does the wintertouched/lasting frost feats give one combat advantage?

:confused:

... because they do. That's what they do.

[randomhero00]

:confused:

... because they do. That's what they do.

I mean it just doesn't make sense to me. Note, I'm brand new to 4e, only played like 2 sessions.

[Mando Knight]

Wintertouched grabs CA against cold-vulnerable targets. Lasting Frost makes a target vulnerable to cold if you hit with an attack power with the cold keyword. Yes, this means that a Rogue with a frost rapier can always have combat advantage.

[Inyssius Tor]

I mean it just doesn't make sense to me. Note, I'm brand new to 4e, only played like 2 sessions.

Okay, then.

1. Wintertouched gives you combat advantage whenever you use a Cold-keyword power to attack someone who's vulnerable to cold. Since there are like sixteen monsters anywhere with that vulnerability, it's not usually that useful, except...

2. When you have Lasting Frost, anyone you hit with a Cold-keyword power becomes vulnerable to cold.

3. And then, if you're a combat-advantage-loving rogue (for instance) instead of someone who actually has Cold-keyword powers, a frost weapon will give the Cold keyword to all of your weapon powers.

[randomhero00]

Ah I see, so it requires three things to work, including some sort of cold weapon or ability.