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Ormur
2010-01-29, 02:20 PM
And those players should stay out!

I've been DMing for a group of players that's on average more knowledgeable about D&D and optimization than myself. I've learned a lot by doing so an by perusing this very forum but since I don't have much experience and infinitely much time I still end up giving them encounters that don't challenge them plus making other build mistakes. I was hoping you could held suggest ways of quickly putting together challenging encounters.
I don't want to use DM fiat or any cheese I wouldn't let the players themselves use. I've also written myself in a bit of a corner since they are in a pretty civilized not-very-high-powered part of the world so they won't realistically stumble on many high-level monsters. I'm mostly thinking about NPC's here but appropriate monster suggestions would also be well received.

The party consists of a three 8th, soon to be 9th level adventurers:

A sorceress which of course causes the biggest headaches. She selected Wings of flurry, Fireball, Bands of Steel, Glitterdust, Ray of Escalating Enfeeblement and some 2nd level fort targeting cloud spell as her primary spells. She's a wildmage and has a few scrolls/potions of spells like invisibility, fly etc. on hand plus an anklet of translocation.

A rogue1/warblade/factotum. I don't remember exactly how many levels each but it's mostly factotum. He makes generous use of Iajitsu, sneak attacks and of course the stances and strikes of a warblade for considerable damage. He has a keen falchion and a breastplate of light fortification. Both of them have standard gear like rings of protection, amulets of AC and cloaks of resistance.

The least problematic is the VoP unarmed Swordsage especially since he's not lucky with dice. Mooks have a hard time overcoming his AC but if anything I'd like to tailor my encounters to make him more effective.

As a bit of a sop he has a Halfling Healer cohort that's (deliberately) useless in combat except for healing and sense motive checks for her gullible master.

An example follows:
I've managed to challenge them in the last few sessions by throwing under CR'd monsters like crabs and shadows at them but the failure of my NPC build talents was evident when they attacked a Castle defended by a few low level fighters, a roguish aristocrat and most significantly a 9th level wizard. The terrain caused them problems since the fighters had double cover behind their arrow slits and the two melee guys had a hard time climbing the castle walls under attack. Meanwhile the sorceress made herself invisible and flew over the castle while the Swordsage and Factotum were screwed over by the wizard (and ended up attacking each other while dominated and confused). She then blasted the baron and wizard with fireballs and wings of flurry and both of them died... encounter over, she won, by herself.

The wizard had a solid selection of save and suck spells but he lacked ways of countering a fellow caster and escaping. I nerfed teleport but even so a wizard, or just any sensible NPC of equivalent level should have a way of countering no-save damage spells like wings of flurry, not to mention fireballs.

Conclusion: the battle was certainly fun and very challenging for the Swordsage and Factotum at least but the Sorceress completely pawned my NPC's. How can I remedy this.

awa
2010-01-29, 02:44 PM
Ive always found lots of relatively weak combatants attacking with a short interval between them favor martial characters over casters. If you optimize them for fighting creatures more powerful then themselves they can be good for balance.

If the sorcerer is obviously the powerhouse of the party foes may in game notice this and then take precautions to help shut the biggest gun down.

Fire mephits could be useful in decent numbers, they fly, have a ranged attack, and decent stealth skills have a couple of them attack the caster in mid air while the party is fighting something else shure the caster will beat them but it will likely take up a lot of spells particularly if the mephits are supported by large groups of archers ready to Launce massive volleys of arrows at anyone flying around

also golems are a classic anti caster option

Note i am not familiar with wings of fury it may negate large parts of my plans

Oslecamo
2010-01-29, 02:48 PM
Altough still not completed, I present you my guide to DM's to make challenging ecounters here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7423546).

For example, if your sorcerer is abusing invisibility too much, you can just start throwing potions/scrolls of see invisibility to your monsters, or monsters that have it in the first place.

Beorn080
2010-01-29, 02:50 PM
Tomb of Horrors?

KurtKatze
2010-01-29, 02:54 PM
WoF is hardcore ^^ luckily she doesn't have wings of cover.

Important things: Does she have metamagic reducers? "Easy metamagic X", "Arcane Thesis x" if not good!

Does she have silent spell as a metamagic? IF not silence could help you against her. You could use an objekct and cast silence on it, before you do that you make one side of it sticky, then throw it on the sorceress with a sneaky NPC/ invisible NPC. That'll keep her buisy.

Against a sorceress samothing that is able to grapple or swollow her etc could be useful as well. She may not have "heart of water" or any anti grapple spell due to her limited spell selection.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-29, 04:20 PM
There's an Aberration in MM4 that can produce an AMF 5/day, but for 1 round/activation. They're fairly smart.

There's a Mind Flayer Ninja in the MM5 that's fairly dangerous.


4 of the little Aberrations under the Mind Flayer Ninja's control. Possibly two or three additional Aberrations. But the most important part is to have the little ones ready an action to AMF when the caster starts trying to mess with the Flayers. They're fairly weak, but the sheer number of them will mess with him.


The main thing about this isn't shutting him down. If he's a decent caster (from the sounds of it, the Sorcerer is just Blasting things), he'll have to think up a new attack plan to deal with the little ones, or bide his time.

Infernum
2010-01-29, 04:20 PM
Well what has always worked for me in the past is to have an NPC villan be a bane to the parties existence. Generally a child or person that has suffered in some great way by the actions of the party or members of the party. I once ran a game where a childs parents were killed by the party and the child grew up into a powerhouse that had gathered a small band of merc/rogues and made the parties life a living hell for a while.

If your fire based Sorceress is as big a problem as i think she can be, a nice Occult slayer(PrC Comp Warrior) with magic items designed to make him resistant to Fireballs and see invisible things and have death ward up make him a mean SoB for casters. Also give him potions to fly and the like. He can now fight with the fighter, rogue and Sorceress fairly well if you also give him followers or a cult or something along those lines.

A nemesis is always a good thing to have, Oh, also give him a Cape of the Mountebank to get away and continue being a pest in the future.

Oslecamo
2010-01-29, 04:33 PM
The main thing about this isn't shutting him down. If he's a decent caster (from the sounds of it, the Sorcerer is just Blasting things), he'll have to think up a new attack plan to deal with the little ones, or bide his time.

Do not understimate the blasty sorceror. Wings of flurry deals force damage, wich means it hurts everything all the time, has no damage cap, and can stun. It's also just a 3rd level spell, so a 9th sorceror can easily spam it. And if she's going it while invisibile, well, how do you see her casting so you can react?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-29, 04:38 PM
Do not understimate the blasty sorceror. Wings of flurry deals force damage, wich means it hurts everything all the time, has no damage cap, and can stun. It's also just a 3rd level spell, so a 9th sorceror can easily spam it. And if she's going it while invisibile, well, how do you see her casting so you can react?

Aberrations can get access to some nifty forms of sense.


I wasn't aware WoF had a Stunning effect. Thanks for that. The Aberrations in MM4 have no eyes (at least in the artwork), but good Listen modifiers. All they need to do is hear her character using the Verbal component in order to react with an AMF.

Beelzebub1111
2010-01-29, 04:57 PM
The best thing you can do is sustain your attacks. If you can, keep them comming slowly, and steadilly, and unceasingly getting stronger. A marathon fight, if you will. if you Pile on the CR 1s, use Guerilla tactics.

Or you could just have them fight wights.

frogspawner
2010-01-29, 05:17 PM
How about underwater adventures?

That'd negate fireball, fly, and invisibility (since the 'hole' can be seen).

And who knows what high-powered nasties have been lurking in the deep, heretofore unknown...

Rasman
2010-01-29, 05:17 PM
WoF is hardcore ^^ luckily she doesn't have wings of cover.

Important things: Does she have metamagic reducers? "Easy metamagic X", "Arcane Thesis x" if not good!

Does she have silent spell as a metamagic? IF not silence could help you against her. You could use an objekct and cast silence on it, before you do that you make one side of it sticky, then throw it on the sorceress with a sneaky NPC/ invisible NPC. That'll keep her buisy.

Against a sorceress samothing that is able to grapple or swollow her etc could be useful as well. She may not have "heart of water" or any anti grapple spell due to her limited spell selection.

er...Anklet of Translocation says grapple/swallow PROBABLY won't work.

IMO, Glitterdust the Sorc, she won't cast invis because she can be seen and as for the wings...that's a tough one...seems a little OP, imo...

Kaun
2010-01-29, 05:29 PM
Could you not throw a defensive caster into the mix? Once he has realised she is the power house of the team he can set about shutting her down.


or even beter i once hand a problem with a massivly opt player so i invented a storyline where the BBEG had made a clone of him and throw him at the group, then i just watched the player figure out how to defeate himself.

frogspawner
2010-01-29, 05:50 PM
How about underwater adventures?

That'd negate fireball, fly, and invisibility (since the 'hole' can be seen).
Oh, and it'd stop Wings of Flurry too (no wind underwater). BTW - don't you need to have, er, wings to use that spell?

jiriku
2010-01-29, 05:56 PM
Ive always found lots of relatively weak combatants attacking with a short interval between them favor martial characters over casters. If you optimize them for fighting creatures more powerful then themselves they can be good for balance.

This is actually quite effective. You'd be surprised how much you can do with large groups of weak monsters, especially monsters that are smart enough to protect themselves from area attacks. Weak monsters are also pretty easily to kill individually, meaning your unarmed swordsage will feel like he's contributing more. (see also Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/))

Optimize them for high hit and saving throws, rather than tricks or lots of damage, since they'll be facing PCs of higher level than themselves. You can do wonders with simple tools too, like flasks of tanglefoot, potions of bull's strength, and stones with silence cast on them.

Get away from using one powerful bad guy with a bunch of supporting mooks, as these encounters are easily solved by focusing firepower on the big bad. Instead, use encounters with groups of monsters that are all about the same CR.

Avoid using high-level casters as opponents. Building them well is difficult and time-consuming, and may be beyond your mastery right now. When you include spellcasters, make them lower-level supporting monsters, and rely mostly on simple 1st- and 2nd-level battlefield control spells like web, glitterdust, color spray and grease.

Use time limits and other plot devices to increase the number of encounters per day they must face. Also, create encounters where "winning" is not defined as "killing all the monsters". For example, if the goal had been "rescue the hostages before the baron can kill them" or "replace the baron's deed to the city with a forgery without alerting him to the change" then the party's overwhelming combat prowess wouldn't allow them to automatically solve the encounter.

Also, talk with the sorceress's player right now about what spells she'll be taking over the next few levels. There's no need to restrict or ban anything, just become informed about what new capabilities the character will shortly be acquiring. Arcane casters power-up FAST as they level, and you need to start thinking about what she'll be capable of two or three levels from now, or else you'll be scrambling to catch up for the next six months.

Above all else, however, remember that the odds heavily favor the good guys in D&D. If the players win handily, congratulate them on their cleverness and move the story forward. As long as they're having fun, you don't need to worry too much about encounter difficulty.

Ormur
2010-01-29, 07:47 PM
This really helpful. I'll keep it all in mind when I design encounters. Just to clarify further.

The silence trick is really useful. She hasn't taken silent or still spell so that should help challenge her a little more. But the anklet saves her from grapples and stomachs.

She hasn't got any metamagic reducers and I don't think she's aiming for that level of cheese (in fact she's mostly being fed that by the two other players).

Wings of Flurry is a 4th level spell that does 1d6 untyped damage per caster level and apparently has a reflex save for half damage (which I just noticed) and avoiding being stunned. Doesn't require anything specific it just says wings appear and do damage, dragon blooded get +1 caster level (not her).

She hasn't decide on what spells she'll take next but her 9th level feat will be explosive spell. Yes, she's a blaster but I'm still having trouble, especially since she also has save or suck and can spam them all day.

I'm really only in the beginning stages of my campaign. They started out at 4th level and they and the BBEG, which is level 20ish, haven't even met each other. They're just dealing with the spillover from his nefarious plans now, his spy network, ambitious aristocrats using the situation to their advantage and various assorted threats that come with being an adventurer.


This is actually quite effective. You'd be surprised how much you can do with large groups of weak monsters, especially monsters that are smart enough to protect themselves from area attacks. Weak monsters are also pretty easily to kill individually, meaning your unarmed swordsage will feel like he's contributing more. (see also Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/))

Optimize them for high hit and saving throws, rather than tricks or lots of damage, since they'll be facing PCs of higher level than themselves. You can do wonders with simple tools too, like flasks of tanglefoot, potions of bull's strength, and stones with silence cast on them.

Get away from using one powerful bad guy with a bunch of supporting mooks, as these encounters are easily solved by focusing firepower on the big bad. Instead, use encounters with groups of monsters that are all about the same CR.

Avoid using high-level casters as opponents. Building them well is difficult and time-consuming, and may be beyond your mastery right now. When you include spellcasters, make them lower-level supporting monsters, and rely mostly on simple 1st- and 2nd-level battlefield control spells like web, glitterdust, color spray and grease.

Thanks I've been pretty much doing that, a big scary guy and mooks I'll change my tactics accordingly. I could probably build some powerful NPC's but as you say time is a factor, I don't know the books by heart and build effective high level characters takes too much time. But how do the low CR guys protect themselves from area effects? Wings of Flurry has a 30ft area and then there are her fireballs and glitterdust. Do you know any quick and easy tips for helping lower CR opponents surviving the first round(s).


Also, talk with the sorceress's player right now about what spells she'll be taking over the next few levels. There's no need to restrict or ban anything, just become informed about what new capabilities the character will shortly be acquiring. Arcane casters power-up FAST as they level, and you need to start thinking about what she'll be capable of two or three levels from now, or else you'll be scrambling to catch up for the next six months.

The problem is that the player doesn't think much about it beforehand he just browses through spell compendium when he levels up or the other guys point out some hardcore spells for him from some obscure source, like WoF. He takes some just for fun but he also has a knack for finding powerful things. Plus he throws really well.


Above all else, however, remember that the odds heavily favor the good guys in D&D. If the players win handily, congratulate them on their cleverness and move the story forward. As long as they're having fun, you don't need to worry too much about encounter difficulty.

I'm definitely not trying to kill them, just making sure the sorceress doesn't make everything short of massive overkill on my part a cakewalk and also helping my more sensible NPC's survive so they can possibly escape or just not die in the first round. Barely defeating worthy foes and not always getting your way is a part of the fun.

storybookknight
2010-01-29, 08:30 PM
Fun combinations - Vampire Template + almost any Hag is good for some inappropriate CR ha-has.

If your sorceress hasn't prepared Daylight, consider a group of Grimlocks with a Half-Fiend leader or two. Darkness 3/day will extinguish any light source of lower level, including lanterns and the like. Throw in a few Voidmind Grimlocks as the linchpins of the assault and have the rest use clever mob tactics - give them a barbarian level each if it doesn't look hard enough.

At 9th level, you're getting into the heavy invisibility stuff - consider a gnomish wizard who casts greater invisibility on himself and Major Image on an ordinary statue (or a flesh golem) to make it look like a spellcasting bad guy. At that point, you could used cheesed illusion to assassinate the party with fear spells, or simply throw some stinking cloud and other sourceless spells that'll give the party a few headaches. Use walls for even more annoyance.

Another trick that I've seen is putting those invisible hellcat devils in the same encounter with monsters that see in the dark. When the lights are on, they can't see the hellcats, when they're off, they can't see the other monsters (I think the example used chain devils? But I don't know if they get darkvision in 3.5 anymore. You could always use DM fiat/homebrew and say they do.) This would also work with photosensitive traps - say a cursed mirror that throws Scorching Rays at any target that it reflects. Have them running around a room full of very sturdy torches, trying not to get eaten by the invisible tigers.

Close quarters + Phase spiders is another typically fun one, (especially if you put some hard-to-see webs at about 15' up) and Arcane Oozes (MM3) in the same room as insubstantial creatures are just unfair, especially without a cleric.

Having enemies use hit+run tactics is always exciting - I like Yuan-Ti because of their camouflage ability, maybe with a level or two of ranger for extra archery goodness (or give them magic arrows as part of their treasure.) An area full of natural mist or steam that imposes penalties to spot checks works even better. If the players feel like they have to take cover or risk being shot down from all directions, then you're doing your job right.

Any situation where you have to fight enemies in terrain that favors them is good. Consider: salamanders in a volcano caldera, skeletons in a pit full of choking gas (with a few high points standing out of it, naturally, so the players can play king of the hill - pity about the pesky hordes of stirges that will target anyone who flies too high), lizardmen in a swamp, dwarves in a fortress.

Frosty
2010-01-29, 08:51 PM
All of this is good advice. Can I ask a similar question for a higher level group? I've got a group of ECL 16 adventurers with two full casters. They have a metmagic rod of Chain which means they can neutralize large groups of mooks even with single-target spells. What do I do then?

Rasman
2010-01-29, 10:15 PM
Ive always found lots of relatively weak combatants attacking with a short interval between them favor martial characters over casters. If you optimize them for fighting creatures more powerful then themselves they can be good for balance.

wtb DM that actually does this...

this is probably your best bet for making your Martial Characters feel more important, because there's nothing like carving your way though a battlefield Dynasty Warriors style


All of this is good advice. Can I ask a similar question for a higher level group? I've got a group of ECL 16 adventurers with two full casters. They have a metmagic rod of Chain which means they can neutralize large groups of mooks even with single-target spells. What do I do then?

tougher mooks, or more mooks, eventually, there will be enough mooks that they need people to keep them off of them OR the mooks will get close enough to take pot shots, either way, a bigger challenge, even though they'll probably get more experience out of it

Lysander
2010-01-29, 10:31 PM
Why not throw a recurring villain warlock at the sorceress? He can also be invisible, fly, and can blast her all day. When she gets close to killing him he'll teleport away with knowledge of her spell list so he can plan for their next battle better. She'll also learn his invocations and can try to plan for him as well. Let the cat and mouse games begin!

Rasman
2010-01-29, 10:54 PM
Why not throw a recurring villain warlock at the sorceress? He can also be invisible, fly, and can blast her all day. When she gets close to killing him he'll teleport away with knowledge of her spell list so he can plan for their next battle better. She'll also learn his invocations and can try to plan for him as well. Let the cat and mouse games begin!

and every time she levels, he can level too, thus the "Rival" is created :haley:

...don't make me go find the page...

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-30, 12:20 AM
All of this is good advice. Can I ask a similar question for a higher level group? I've got a group of ECL 16 adventurers with two full casters. They have a metmagic rod of Chain which means they can neutralize large groups of mooks even with single-target spells. What do I do then?

If they are facing intelligent foes, you always want to make sure you have ranged to support your melee, and give the enemies at least one environmental advantage (surprise, cover, advantageous position, etc.) Don't have them all rush in at once from the front. If the monsters are smart, they'll flank or reinforce and go for the easier to hit soft targets first.

If you have a spellcaster mixed in, have them loaded with globe of invulnerability or some other unexpected defense, like that SpC spell that blocks all ranged touch attacks (AFB, forgot name.) Generally, I recommend using sorcerers with exotic spells, so the players don't automatically acquire copies of the spells when they slay the caster.

Roc Ness
2010-01-30, 01:00 AM
Ive always found lots of relatively weak combatants attacking with a short interval between them favor martial characters over casters. If you optimize them for fighting creatures more powerful then themselves they can be good for balance.

Yep. Just put them in the right terrain with the right formation.

For example: Corridors 10ft high, 15ft wide and slope gently upwards. Have 6 human fighters with guisarmes and 6 human fighters with heavy crossbows. For feats give the guisarme guys weapon focus (guisarme), combat expertise and improved trip, and rapid reload, point blank shot & precise shot for the crossbowmen. Arrange them like so: (|= wall, G=guisarme fighter, C=light crossbow fighter)


|CCC|
|CCC|
|FFF|
|GGG|
|GGG|
|FFF|

Have the Guisarme fighters hold position when they see the PCs and try to trip the factotum or swordsage when they near. It probably won't work but that way you won't rough them up too much. This way, it will take around three to four rounds for the two meleers to reach the crossbow fighters who will be pelting at the sorcerer the whole time. Having the crossbow fighters aim for the sorcerer when she appears forces her to either a) turn invisible or b) kill the whole lot with fire/wings of flurry immediately. If she was invisible to begin with, well, she can't sit idly while her teammates are being pincushioned. Plus you can always wait for it to wear off. Keep doing this until the sorcerer runs low on spells, and then you show the boss, who could be a wizard, warlock, blackguard etc. at a room in the end of the corridor.


I hope this helps! :smallbiggrin:

frogspawner
2010-01-30, 05:01 AM
The Big Bad Guy won't like having hordes of minions routinely despatched. Realistically, that would attract 'special attention' for these characters (so you're free to use assassins, invisible stalkers, and set up situations specifically designed to destroy them). And it'd be worth his while routinely handing out scrolls/potions of (Minor?) Globe of Invulnerability, See Invisibles, etc to his servants. Oh, and Dispel Magic, for that Fly spell...

Wings of Flurry makes the wings appear, you say? That does sound overpowered, with that no-save stunning. Aren't undead immune to stun? And Wind Wall should block it.

Maybe spells from obscure books should have obscure sources in-game, requiring lengthy, tedious side-quests to obtain. (The 'horse has bolted' on this one I know, but who knows what they might find next?)

Talking of terrain, if underwater doesn't appeal to you, how about encounters in forest? If it's a normal setting, virtually everywhere would be forested. As well as giving cover to the enemy, lobbing Fireballs around in forest would annoy the heck out of local druids and/or elves, making them more enemies.

And the Bad Guys are Evil, right?

So they could use 'human shields': Kidnap plenty of local children, and keep batches of them (suitably bound and/or ghoul/poison paralyzed, naturally) wherever you want protected from area-effect attacks (Fireball, poison gas, wings of flurry). Including a guard near each significant enemy commander carrying 2 or 3 of 'em. (If the character knowingly use area-effects, and kill the kids, then they shift into evil themselves. And may even have to join the the BBEG's side... :vaarsuvius:)

And if he does get hold of that sorceror (captive or 'ally'), dissolve the body in acid. He's too dangerous to be left alive/raisable. (And won't the players then know the Bad Guy is bad? :xykon: )

olentu
2010-01-30, 05:07 AM
The Big Bad Guy won't like having hordes of minions routinely despatched. Realistically, that would attract 'special attention' for these characters (so you're free to use assassins, invisible stalkers, and set up situations specifically designed to destroy them). And it'd be worth his while routinely handing out scrolls/potions of (Minor?) Globe of Invulnerability, See Invisibles, etc to his servants. Oh, and Dispel Magic, for that Fly spell...

Wings of Flurry makes the wings appear, you say? That does sound overpowered, with that no-save stunning. Aren't undead immune to stun? And Wind Wall should block it.

Maybe spells from obscure books should have obscure sources in-game, requiring lengthy, tedious side-quests to obtain. (The 'horse has bolted' on this one I know, but who knows what they might find next?)

Talking of terrain, if underwater doesn't appeal to you, how about encounters in forest? If it's a normal setting, virtually everywhere would be forested. As well as giving cover to the enemy, lobbing Fireballs around in forest would annoy the heck out of local druids and/or elves, making them more enemies.

And the Bad Guys are Evil, right?

So they could use 'human shields': Kidnap plenty of local children, and keep batches of them (suitably bound and/or ghoul/poison paralyzed, naturally) wherever you want protected from area-effect attacks (Fireball, poison gas, wings of flurry). Including a guard near each significant enemy commander carrying 2 or 3 of 'em. (If the character knowingly use area-effects, and kill the kids, then they shift into evil themselves. And may even have to join the the BBEG's side... :vaarsuvius:)

And if he does get hold of that sorceror (captive or 'ally'), dissolve the body in acid. He's too dangerous to be left alive/raisable. (And won't the players then know the Bad Guy is bad? :xykon: )

I recall that the spell only stuns when one fails the reflex save.

frogspawner
2010-01-30, 05:45 AM
I recall that the spell only stuns when one fails the reflex save.
Good! The rest still applies. (I don't have the book; and the OP gave it as "no-save").

That is a problem with non-core stuff - it's not so well-known. Players can make things out to be more powerful than they are (perhaps innocently - but probably not). Maybe they should just be disallowed in the campaign; or maybe the player wanting to use it must supply the GM with a copy.... :smallwink:


She then blasted the baron and wizard with fireballs and wings of flurry and both of them died... encounter over, she won, by herself.
Hang on! "Baron"?? Are the PCs nobles themselves? Do they have incontrovertible proof this baron was plotting treason? Was there urgency that prevented them taking said proof to the proper authorities?
Less than a resounding "Yes" to any of these means the party should now be declared outlaw - enemies of the state. Not Good!

PS: When the baron is raised (why wouldn't he be?), he'll raise his wizard, and they'll be the keenest to hunt down these rebel terrorists. And now they know the party's tactics.

Lysander
2010-01-30, 01:13 PM
Meanwhile the sorceress made herself invisible and flew over the castle while the Swordsage and Factotum were screwed over by the wizard (and ended up attacking each other while dominated and confused). She then blasted the baron and wizard with fireballs and wings of flurry and both of them died... encounter over, she won, by herself.


Next time make the enemy spellcaster have permanent See Invisibility. It'll be hilarious when he casts Dispel Magic and makes her fall visible into a crowd of enemies.

Oslecamo
2010-01-30, 01:25 PM
All of this is good advice. Can I ask a similar question for a higher level group? I've got a group of ECL 16 adventurers with two full casters. They have a metmagic rod of Chain which means they can neutralize large groups of mooks even with single-target spells. What do I do then?

Mooks with defensive abilities. At level 16 you can more than afford it. 1 level of sorceror for wings of cover is nice.

You can also abuse HD advancement rules to make super mooks that technicaly are low CR but have the HP and saves to take spells to the face and keep going.

Look at outsiders in particular. Lots of them have at will defensive SLAs. Combine at your leisure. Mooks buffed by death ward, circle of protection, resists and other goodies are much more scary.