The traditional dungeon - why did i ever leave you?

[Kaun]

So im doing some last min prep for my 4e game tonight and it has been a while since i have run somthing like a more traditional dungeon.

I know my players enjoy them every now and then because it reminds them of the old days but before i started fleshing out this one i couldnt remember why i didnt run them more often.

Now i do.

They are bloody borring and tedious to put together to a level that i am happy enough with to run for my group.

Which led me to thinking....

I wonder how many people still run alot of old school non module dungeons (not bought or downloaded adventure pack ones)?

What are my fellow playgrounders thoughts on them?

Are they a regular thing for you?

Do you rarely if ever run them or some where inbetween?

Have you got any tips for fleshing them out quickly.

Do you know of a generator which dosent give you a 1st ed vomit pit of randomnes that is next to imposible to make believable for your players?

[Gralamin]

So im doing some last min prep for my 4e game tonight and it has been a while since i have run somthing like a more traditional dungeon.

I know my players enjoy them every now and then because it reminds them of the old days but before i started fleshing out this one i couldnt remember why i didnt run them more often.

Now i do.

They are bloody borring and tedious to put together to a level that i am happy enough with to run for my group.

Which led me to thinking....

I wonder how many people still run alot of old school non module dungeons (not bought or downloaded adventure pack ones)?

What are my fellow playgrounders thoughts on them?

Are they a regular thing for you?

Do you rarely if ever run them or some where inbetween?
I run them fairly often, I like planning dungeons.


Have you got any tips for fleshing them out quickly.
I focus on the gameplay of the Dungeon first, coming up with a number of encounters (And a few encounter themes, roughly 1 theme per five encounters, which lets the players and I play around with the theme a lot).
Once those are filled in, I plot out extra rooms - Small crooks, places to put loot, maybe a magical location, but oh dear lord not an empty room.



Do you know of a generator which dosent give you a 1st ed vomit pit of randomnes that is next to imposible to make believable for your players?

Gozzy's Wandering Line Generator (http://www.gozzys.com/article.php?cm_id=8) is quite good.


Edit:
Alternatively: Play Dwarf Fortress, Export map, translate into dungeon :smallwink:

[sofawall]

Edit:
Alternatively: Play Dwarf Fortress, Export map, translate into dungeon :smallwink:

Why have I never thought of this? I love that idea.

[Glimbur]

Why have I never thought of this? I love that idea.

That'll take even longer. On the plus side, you're playing Dwarf Fortress. Just reconsider if you're planning on flooding the place with lava to deal with PC's... that's a bit overkill on those poor first level characters.

[Salanmander]

As a DM I have rarely used a traditional dungeon. I've DMed for a total of roughly 3 semesters, two of them as part of one game. I ran one fairly traditional dungeon in the middle of that game, essentially a giant vault for an artifact that was had a lock for each school of magic. I ran it because I had been using mostly humanoids with class levels, and I wanted an excuse to trawl through my monster manuals. Also to create a bit of an interlude.

Basically, my first thought as a DM is to have people interact with a world, which more often involves overland travel, buildings (sometimes castles, but still buildings), and smallish natural caverns. If I run dungeons it's likely to be to break up the normal pace of things (and last not more than a few sessions).

[Kaun]

ahhh still procrastinating with less then 2 hours to go and have it about half done.

What did you mean but "not an empty room" Gralamin?

do you make sure to have something meaningfull and usefull in every room or are you like me and you some times have rooms like.

"the door opens to a rather plan 8x8 room, there is a door on the far side of the room which is currently closed and you can see nothing of note in this room besides a thick layer of dust and some broken cay pots in the far right corner."

For me thats a... i gave this dungeon way to many rooms room!

[Seryna]

I wonder how many people still run alot of old school non module dungeons (not bought or downloaded adventure pack ones)?
No, mostly because I don't have any. I am a new Dm (and I've mostly been cutting and pasting new dungeons from images).


Gralamin,
thanks for the link to the wandering line. My players and I will be appreciating these.

[Calimehter]

What Salanmander said and why.

I *did* find a link that made a fairly nice random dungeon, though you have to play with the settings a bit to get something decent. I've printed out a couple of nice low-level smaller dungeons that look quite nice on paper, though I've not tried it out for anything high level.

http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/

[Jolly Steve]

Do you know of a generator which dosent give you a 1st ed vomit pit of randomnes that is next to imposible to make believable for your players?

I have a page: www.apolitical.info/webgame/dungeon

It's a lot more detailed than most similar generators: it does custom monsters with stats and the relations between different groups in the dungeon, tells you what the monsters are doing, gives you the objective etc.

The downside is it only does Tunnels & Trolls and Basic D&D.

[Jack_Simth]

With dungeons, there's something to keep in mind:
Most were not originally intended as dungeons.

So here's some questions (and some variations on answers) on dungeons:

1) Why is there an underground complex here to begin with?
a) Natural caves
b) Living place for critters that prefer the underground
i) Intelligent critters
ii) Dumb animals
c) Military purposes (fortresses, prisons, storehouses)
d) Topside support (sewers, generally, but also other types of utility tunnels, such as storehouses, burial catacombs, and the like)
e) Criminal (or persecuted religious) gathering secretly

2) What's it been adapted to in the past?
a) Living place for critters that prefer the underground
i) Intelligent critters
ii) Dumb animals
b) Military Defense
c) Topside support (sewers, generally, but also other types of utility tunnels)
d) Criminal (or persecuted religious) gathering secretly
e) Abandoned and left to decay.

3) What's happening there now?
a) Living place for critters that prefer the underground
i) Intelligent critters
ii) Dumb animals
b) Military Defense
c) Topside support (sewers, generally, but also other types of utility tunnels)
d) Criminal (or persecuted religious) gathering secretly
e) Abandoned and left to decay.

Yes, there's a lot of repetition in there - for good reason.

The initial reason for the area will strongly affect the layout:
An area of natural caves, or one dug out by dumb animals will be highly random (or seem that way if you don't have a very good grasp of geology / social behavior of the animals in question ... and your players generally won't, especially as you get to make them up as it's a fictional world with it's own fictional physics and creatures).
An area dug out by intelligent critters for living quarters will be somewhat random (the area is sectioned off... but who connects to their neighbors, and what any given section does with itself, is generally going to be up to the personal tastes of the owners).
A a military defense area is going to be quite organized - it may be highly repetitive curves and corners to set up a plethora of ambush and choke points, or it'll be a lot of straight lines, but it'll have an overall pattern, as it was designed from the beginning.
Anything intended for topside support will start with a regular layout... however, it'll generally be following the same pattern as what it's supporting (utility tunnels follow city streets), with the caveat that what's topside is a lot easier to change, so while it followed the city plan when it was built, the city plan has changed since then. Expansions will happen, and will be based on what's topside at the time, but you won't get total consistency.
A place for people to gather secretly will be based on the specific group - but generally will follow the same patters as a military defense area (with the exception that they may very well want the place to be highly chaotic and easy to get lost in).

Step 2 is for how the place gets modified with time; the criminal element may head into the sewers to escape the local law... but the sewers aren't a perfect fit for what they want to happen. They'll carve out hidey-holes, install traps and furnishings, locked doors, and the like. Meanwhile, any of the original purpose stuff that's not being used? Well, that gets left to rot. What additions / subtractions did the middle inhabitants do?

Step 3 is for what's currently going on - a cult has cleared out the criminal element, and is putting in their ritual chambers. They'll clear out any traps that are inconvenient for them ... but they'll miss the ones in out-of-the-way areas, they'll miss a few secret passages, and so on. They will, of course, install a few of their own security measures, mind... but they won't know everything about the area.

Now, the short of this is: Any place that has served multiple purposes will often not make logical sense unless you've got the entire history - because each set of purposes will make the changes that make sense for what they're doing with it, and will leave whatever iis too inconvenient to change, or seems harmless for the trouble of dealing with it (and the most recent set won't be finished in customizing the place). Simply assuming the area is old pretty much automatically means it's going to be at least a bit chaotic.

[Gralamin]

ahhh still procrastinating with less then 2 hours to go and have it about half done.

What did you mean but "not an empty room" Gralamin?

do you make sure to have something meaningfull and usefull in every room or are you like me and you some times have rooms like.

"the door opens to a rather plan 8x8 room, there is a door on the far side of the room which is currently closed and you can see nothing of note in this room besides a thick layer of dust and some broken cay pots in the far right corner."

For me thats a... i gave this dungeon way to many rooms room!

Well, I see a lot of modules with rooms with absolutely nothing in it, and no conceivable purpose. There is no reason to have these rooms, since they add nothing to a game.

From a DM perspective they are bad because they waste time to prepare (Especially if you like describing everything), take up space on your notes, and likely cause PCs to over-analyze the room trying to figure out why its in the game.

From a Player perspective, they are bad because you get nothing for going into them: They are just a complete waste of time.

[Kaun]

Well, I see a lot of modules with rooms with absolutely nothing in it, and no conceivable purpose. There is no reason to have these rooms, since they add nothing to a game.

From a DM perspective they are bad because they waste time to prepare (Especially if you like describing everything), take up space on your notes, and likely cause PCs to over-analyze the room trying to figure out why its in the game.

From a Player perspective, they are bad because you get nothing for going into them: They are just a complete waste of time.

Meh i have rooms in my house with nothing in them and no current purpose for them.

Just because a room isnt anything now dosent mean it wasn't something or wont become something.

Especial if a dungeon was something but now its inhabited by things using it for a diffrent purpose there are bound to be a room or two which are currently unused or empty.

[Gralamin]

Meh i have rooms in my house with nothing in them and no current purpose for them.

Just because a room isnt anything now dosent mean it wasn't something or wont become something.

Especial if a dungeon was something but now its inhabited by things using it for a diffrent purpose there are bound to be a room or two which are currently unused or empty.

Then there should be some indication of that. Instead of just having an empty room, have it give clues towards the history of the dungeon. Much more interesting. Not having these rooms is nothing to do with realism, its to do with keeping the game interesting, and efficient use of what you are designing.

[Kaun]

Then there should be some indication of that. Instead of just having an empty room, have it give clues towards the history of the dungeon. Much more interesting. Not having these rooms is nothing to do with realism, its to do with keeping the game interesting, and efficient use of what you are designing.

point taken,

and generaly when i do have these rooms i usualy add a small touch of flavour.

Like a pile of rubbish to make it look like the room was used as a sort of make shift tip.

Or some busted up rotted furniture that gives some insite into what the room may have been.

[valadil]

I've never been a fan of traditional dungeons. I'd much rather put a game in a city where plot and intrigue happen. My games will usually feature a single session dungeon or two, just to take a break from the plotting, but those are exceptions.

[Knaight]

The closest I have ever come to a traditional dungeon recently were various black ops procedures in either a fortress, space station, or large military vessel. Just because taking out a few guards frequently happens when things go wrong, and either you get spotted, have to leave a corpse that gets noticed, or don't hide an explosive charge as well as you could have. Or one goes off early.

I used to do dungeons frequently, but that was the dark ages before I really came to understand GMing. They just don't seem to be as interesting most of the time.

[Lawless III]

Do you know of a generator which dosent give you a 1st ed vomit pit of randomnes that is next to imposible to make believable for your players?

I was just going to start a thread asking this. Now I don't have to.:smallbiggrin: Thanks.

[Shardan]

look for the History Channel show 'Cities of the Underworld'
A plethora of ideas
look at animal burrow designs and adapt them to DnD monsters
design an underground city and then plot what would happen if it were suddenly taken over by DnDN monsters
If it really is a classic 'dungeon' then it was build by a BBEG to hide his lair/MacGuffin. Act like such. Red herrings, imported monsters, traps

when i started, i ran random dungeons, but then the goal was nothing more than killing stuff for XP. If thats what you want, does the dungeon need to make sense?

[Kaun]

when i started, i ran random dungeons, but then the goal was nothing more than killing stuff for XP. If thats what you want, does the dungeon need to make sense?

In theroy no, but players like a certain level of sence in there dungeons so they can attempt to predict whats coming.

[Thane of Fife]

I have a page: www.apolitical.info/webgame/dungeon

It's a lot more detailed than most similar generators: it does custom monsters with stats and the relations between different groups in the dungeon, tells you what the monsters are doing, gives you the objective etc.

The downside is it only does Tunnels & Trolls and Basic D&D.

You have far too much awesome stuff on your website.



How to Host a Dungeon (http://planet-thirteen.com/Dungeon.aspx) requires some work, but it will give you a relatively sensible overview of a dungeon, complete with some history.

[term1nally s1ck]

Mythweavers has one that includes loot and encounters.

[KurtKatze]

Those generators are awesome!!!!

Thank you for posting them here.
I am not a great fan of dungheons but once in a while i really like to make one. But when i do them from my head they tend to be quite small and a bit too easily overviewed.
This helps me a lot.

[Gamerlord]

So im doing some last min prep for my 4e game tonight and it has been a while since i have run somthing like a more traditional dungeon.

I know my players enjoy them every now and then because it reminds them of the old days but before i started fleshing out this one i couldnt remember why i didnt run them more often.

Now i do.

They are bloody borring and tedious to put together to a level that i am happy enough with to run for my group.

Which led me to thinking....

I wonder how many people still run alot of old school non module dungeons (not bought or downloaded adventure pack ones)?

What are my fellow playgrounders thoughts on them?

Are they a regular thing for you?

Do you rarely if ever run them or some where inbetween?

Have you got any tips for fleshing them out quickly.

Do you know of a generator which dosent give you a 1st ed vomit pit of randomnes that is next to imposible to make believable for your players?

I enjoy building and planning dungeons, especially randomized dungeon because I can put them together quickly.

[bosssmiley]

So im doing some last min prep for my 4e game tonight and it has been a while since i have run somthing like a more traditional dungeon.

I know my players enjoy them every now and then because it reminds them of the old days but before i started fleshing out this one i couldnt remember why i didnt run them more often.

Now i do.

They are bloody borring and tedious to put together to a level that i am happy enough with to run for my group.

Eh? Are you over-prepping?

There's a school of thought that says only about a third of your dungeon should be filled with pre-planned stuff (AFAIK Philotomy (http://www.philotomy.com/#creating_dungeon) was the first to explicitly state this rule). Another third gets random chart content (because life is richer, more complex and messier than a single plotted story), and the last third is only filled after play starts. Leaving a third of the space empty gives the dungeon room to breathe, and allows you to drop in whole extra sections as and when they occur to you.

Prepping the explored parts of the dungeon an area at a time, rather than the whole sprawling mess, is much easier than burning yourself out trying to key anything up to 1,000 locations at once. There's a reason 10x10 dungeon geomorphs and the 30x30 One Page Dungeon template (http://oldguyrpg.blogspot.com/2008/12/one-page-dungeon-level-templates.html) see a lot of use in megadungeon circles. :smallwink:


Which led me to thinking....

I wonder how many people still run alot of old school non module dungeons (not bought or downloaded adventure pack ones)?

What are my fellow playgrounders thoughts on them? Are they a regular thing for you?

*raises hand*

The Vaults of Nagoh is my ongoing pet project. It gives me great joy to see players repeatedly throwing their characters into harms way in my own creation. Well, I say 'my own'; it's really a hideous mish-mash of stuff from films, gaming books, and my magpie-ish gleanings all over the web. And, here's the thing: the Vaults is now a very different place from my first vague plans for it. Each additional idea or borrowing thrown into the mix subtly changed the existing nature of the place, sometimes in ways wildly beyond the scope of my original intent (http://vaultsofnagoh.blogspot.com/2010/01/zombies-in-my-vaults.html).

The difference between a megadungeon and a standard clear-secure-and-loot dungeon (aka, one shot funnel dungeon (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2009/12/taxonomy-of-archetypal-dungeon-types-im.html), and the dominant type in WOTC-published material) is that a megadungeon can never be entirely cleared. Either by dint of sheer scale, or number of points of access, or by virtue of its nature as an outpost of the mythic underworld, the dungeon will never be made entirely safe and wholly 'known'. There will always be a little bit more to explore.

The current BBEGs and his seething hordes are likely only the latest tenants of this prime piece of real estate. There will probably be other factions in the dungeon that take a neutral or hostile attitude to this interloper, and will happily drag the PCs into their local politics. Factions will rise and fall in response to party actions, but the dungeon will remain there for exploitation by new groups.

There are still whole sealed evil in a can (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan) areas yet to be explored on otherwise mapped, 'completed' levels. That dead end tunnel they didn't go down this week? I've built a whole new area down there by the next session ("You can't prove it wasn't there!" - the Tree Lobsters rule (http://www.treelobsters.com/)). Anything the players think they know can be changed during play, so long as the change makes sense in the context of the existing game.

All this (essential incompleteness, local politics, change over time) gives megadungeons massive re-usability. Heck, used correctly they can become the entire game setting in their own right! Throw in a Hellboy II-style Troll Market as neutral ground/restock area and the party need never return to the surface.


Have you got any tips for fleshing them out quickly.

Random tables. Srsly. You don't have to do exactly what the table says, but it might be a useful spur to your creativity to have something unexpected. Just pop the entry down on the map and key, then let your DMing experience make sense of it.

Anything that's nonsensical (tunnels and staircases to nowhere, false doors, rooms without floors) or out of place (elaborate frescoes in an Orcish tribal lair, random statue gardens and pools) can easily be explained either as successive periods of rebuilding and repurposing, or as part of the chaos essential to the nature of the dungeon. You really aren't in Kansas anymore, so stop expecting everything to abide by Kansas' rules.

Look at Gearworld (http://gearworld.livejournal.com/). Although written as background fluff for a series of painting, the place is a classic megadungeon where weird and impossible stuff happens for reasons that are never adequately explained (appropriate in that it was created by the woman who painted the lolwut? pear (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=lolwut+pear)). It's the mystery that endures; not the explanation.


Do you know of a generator which doesn't give you a 1st ed vomit pit of randomness that is next to impossible to make believable for your players?

Randomness is a tool you use, not something to avoid or fob off onto a machine. Embrace the oracular power of dice (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-oracular-power-of-dice.html). And learn to love the dungeon (http://underdarkgazette.blogspot.com/2009/12/i-love-dungeon-dungeon-is-my-friend-i.html).

[Kaun]

Eh? Are you over-prepping?

Yeah maybe just a smidge in hinde sight. You have made some interesting points to be mulled over tho. Luckly in away my players only made it to the entrance of the dungeon so i have more time i can sink into putting some of these ideas to work.

[Fiery Diamond]

I recently ran a dungeon where I planned what traps and creatures were going to be in it but nothing else, not even layout, before the session. Then I made it up as we went along. I even went with the "sure, why not" trope for coming up with who originally lived there and what kinds of extra rooms there were, as it was supposed to be a long-abandoned underground city. It was fun.

[Jolly Steve]

You have far too much awesome stuff on your website.

:smallbiggrin: Thanks.