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kaiguy
2010-01-30, 01:05 AM
So, I''m DMing a group right now, with my friends who are all mostly newbies. This is my first time DMing, but things have been going pretty well so far. We've just added two more players, one of whom is totally new, and the other one is fairly experienced. And a bit of a munchkin.

Does anyone have suggestions of pre-emptive strategies to deal with munchkins? I'm trying to keep things more role-playing oriented, less combat oriented, but he's also pretty creative at thinking through problems, and I can already tell it's going to be hard to keep him from taking over the group.

FishAreWet
2010-01-30, 01:10 AM
Talk to him.

Quietus
2010-01-30, 01:14 AM
First, define what exactly you mean by munchkin. Does he build mechanically superior characters, regardless of what the rest of the party is playing? Does he cheat to make sure he gets the results he wants? In those cases, yes, talk with him, figure out how to make the game fun for him, without compromising your other friend's fun.

Your "taking over the group" comment, however, suggests (at least to me) that it may also be a personality issue. If he becomes too forceful, demands too much spotlight, things like that? Then you simply need to make sure the time is taken to address each individual in your group in turn, regardless of how much he's shouting that he wants to roll initiative, so that everyone gets fair and equal representation.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 01:14 AM
Make sure you know the rulesets he's using, and are familiar with what his character should be able to do via the rules.

If he cheats, make sure he knows that you know that He's Doing It Wrong.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-30, 01:22 AM
I provide the munchkin-prone with a special role, to reflect their increased experience. Such a player may be occasionally privately informed of specific things that would make the plot go smoothly, without too much detail, and given a role in the action.

In other words, take the problem student, and make him/her your personal assistant. They'll feel privileged, and you'll have a closer relationship to discuss things with the person, on balance and such. This way, you give the player an active interest in keeping the story running smoothly, and satisfy their spotlight need, by giving them their fix of "special", while maintaining control.

kaiguy
2010-01-30, 01:38 AM
It's not really a problem that requires talking to him at this point. I'm sort of hoping to preemptively prevent munchkining. You're right in that I need to be rock solid on the rulesets he wants to use: I let him play a druid with a grimalkin as his animal companion, and I'm regretting that casual decision just a bit.

He's playing a half-orc, and I'm thinking I'm going to make him pay for that a bit by having people instantly distrust him in every city the visit. It's been an urban centered campaign so far, so that shouldn't be too hard.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 01:46 AM
Wait, he's playing a half-orc druid?

A proper optimizer he ain't.

The Demented One
2010-01-30, 01:48 AM
Use words. Nothing else is needed.

Narazil
2010-01-30, 01:52 AM
It's not really a problem that requires talking to him at this point. I'm sort of hoping to preemptively prevent munchkining. You're right in that I need to be rock solid on the rulesets he wants to use: I let him play a druid with a grimalkin as his animal companion, and I'm regretting that casual decision just a bit.

He's playing a half-orc, and I'm thinking I'm going to make him pay for that a bit by having people instantly distrust him in every city the visit. It's been an urban centered campaign so far, so that shouldn't be too hard.

Making your players "pay" is never a good solution, unless its consequence for something they did IC.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-30, 01:55 AM
Wait, he's playing a half-orc druid?

A proper optimizer he ain't.

All I must say to that is this:

Real optimizers play Complete Warrior Samurai, or Truenamers.

AngelisBlack
2010-01-30, 02:04 AM
Just having a talk with the person should do the trick. Pre-emptive measures are just not fair. He might not be as munchkin as you think or he might even be willing to work with you. One other thing you might do thats sort of unrelated, make sure rules conflict procedures are given ahead of time so you and the most experienced player don't waste too much session time on that sort of thing.

FishAreWet
2010-01-30, 02:07 AM
It's not really a problem that requires talking to him at this point. I'm sort of hoping to preemptively prevent munchkining. You're right in that I need to be rock solid on the rulesets he wants to use: I let him play a druid with a grimalkin as his animal companion, and I'm regretting that casual decision just a bit.

He's playing a half-orc, and I'm thinking I'm going to make him pay for that a bit by having people instantly distrust him in every city the visit. It's been an urban centered campaign so far, so that shouldn't be too hard.

If you think making the character 'pay' comes before talking to then player then you should let one of the more mature players DM.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-30, 02:20 AM
If you think making the character 'pay' comes before talking to then player then you should let one of the more mature players DM.

I don't think we should jump to that conclusion. If he wishes to protray a racially charged world, as is common in fantasy trope (the view that greenskins are fodder is not a new one), then that's fine. Especially if he's warned the player first.

SparkMandriller
2010-01-30, 02:22 AM
It's not really a problem that requires talking to him at this point. I'm sort of hoping to preemptively prevent munchkining.

You should probably wait and see if there are actual problems before trying to punish the guy.

Just seems more reasonable to me.

TheOOB
2010-01-30, 02:24 AM
Note that a munchkin is usually someone who deliberately ignores or bends rules for the purpose of "winning" the game.

A power-gamer is not a munchkin. There is nothing wrong with creating an effective character, and I doubt the party will mind having a strong combatant on their side. As long as they are not doing anything silly broken(I should be able to get an item of constant true strike for a couple of thousand gold!) or bending the rules (opps, I forgot to write down that damage I took earlier), things should be fine.

Now if the character is dominating the session, there are a couple things you can do. First is to create a session that revolves around a different players, and let the player know that this session the spot light isn't on them. Otherwise just split the party up once or twice and force the others to act without them, they'll learn to take initiative. In any case, having a strong leader isn't a bad thing.

In general it is A) best not to say "no" to a player unless you have to(but when you have to, say it), and B) never punish a character unless they do something stupid. You try to cast a spell in the middle of a town that hates mages, your asking for what you get, but if a lynch mob comes after them in every town because of fantastic racism because they choose a crappy race, thats just no cool.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-30, 02:24 AM
You should probably wait and see if there are actual problems before trying to punish the guy.

Just seems more reasonable to me.

My idea of reasonable is shaped from years of experience as a DM.

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."

Develop a game plan for what to do IF it becomes a problem, but give the dude a chance.

Splendor
2010-01-30, 03:05 AM
Munchkin shouldn't be too much of a problem in a "role-playing oriented, less combat oriented" game.

Usually Munchkins hate role-playing oriented games.

pingcode20
2010-01-30, 03:19 AM
Still, the pre-emptive strike is something to be avoided, as many others have stated.

I could go on, but really, the gist of it is 'don't start a war if you don't have to'.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-30, 03:27 AM
You want to spike his guns? Make the combat-oriented solution the least effective. Make the more roleplay-oriented solutions have better outcomes. Make sure the party knows this. Point out to everyone, in advance, that this is primarily a roleplay game, not a slaughter-fest.

If he acts like a munchkin, he's going to slaughter every NPC in sight. With fatal consequences, since the rest of the party can use the "He's not with US" defense, munchkin is eliminated, and plot rolls on smoothly without him.

Splendor
2010-01-30, 03:43 AM
In past games when a PC played a character the party has asked his character to leave or ditched him. We DIDN'T ask the PLAYER to leave. We just kicked his character out of our party. "Sorry killing people in bar fights is just wrong and we want you to leave."

Curmudgeon
2010-01-30, 07:04 AM
The only sure way of handling a munchkin is superior knowledge. Know the rules better. Lots of munchkins try to pick and choose from old and new rules, but WotC has a rule that says you've got to use all new content when using any part of a source set (usually a book). Somebody wants to use the 3.0 Weapon Master PrC? Show them where it says they've got to use the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master class instead. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) Don't let them cheat.

Know the rules of simple logic. Lots of munchkin constructions start with logical fallacies, such as:
Riding dogs can be mounts.
The Improved Familiar feat allows choosing riding dogs as familiars.
Druids may have riding dogs as animal companions.
Thus all mount-related and familiar-related feats are available to all animal companions -- which of course is nonsense.

Many munchkin tactics use player knowledge that's unavailable to their characters. A 3rd-level Wizard wants to use Alter Self to assume the form of an Avariel so they can fly? OK, they can't know what an Avariel is without a Knowledge (Sossal local) check of DC 11 (Player's Guide to Faerūn, page 21). And trained-only skill checks above DC 10 aren't possible. Explain the rules, then say no because of the rules, not arbitrarily.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-30, 07:15 AM
Limit the number of books he can use and tell him you want an actual write version of his backstory that's a certain amount of pages. He'll then have to focus way more on character concept, backstory, an roleplaying elements.

Gamerlord
2010-01-30, 07:19 AM
The power of HOMEBREW,

Design creatures that need teamwork to fight, he cannot solo them,as they have special qualities that make him a whole lot less useful(i.e DR, immunity to X), this requires the others to participate.

That and talk to him.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-30, 07:33 AM
Limit the number of books he can use and tell him you want an actual write version of his backstory that's a certain amount of pages. He'll then have to focus way more on character concept, backstory, an roleplaying elements.

Forcing someone to do what amounts to essentially homework for a game? Not so much.

Last DM that told me to write a 4 page backstory, I asked him if he was going to be checking punctuation and requiring double spaced... Before telling him flat out, no.

Ultimately, I prefer my character to be defined through exploration and roleplay. I can get the initial beginnings with a rough concept. For example:

Start with: Naive, good hearted, sarcastic know-it-all kid, at the beginning of a career change from street urchin.

Build: Human Rogue 3. (further optimization to accompany this)

Hooks:
*less than solid beliefs on 'ownership and possession'. Frequently pickpockets because he can. This has gotten him into trouble when he picks the wrong person.

*never been lethally injured. He's been in a few bar scuffles, and he's been the target of schoolyard beatings, but his view of actual combat is far from actuality, and his first experience with the truth will likely be rough.

The above is all you need to jump in and start playing this character, and playing him well. Let the backstory? Be the first 5 sessions. That way, the character grows from roleplay.

This is a game. Not English Lit 101 or Sociology 133.

Heliomance
2010-01-30, 07:35 AM
Limit the number of books he can use and tell him you want an actual write version of his backstory that's a certain amount of pages. He'll then have to focus way more on character concept, backstory, an roleplaying elements.

Yuck. Enforced essay-writing for a game that you play for fun? I cannot stress "no" loudly enough.

Gamerlord
2010-01-30, 07:37 AM
Limit the number of books he can use and tell him you want an actual write version of his backstory that's a certain amount of pages. He'll then have to focus way more on character concept, backstory, an roleplaying elements.

Why should he have to write a backstory? What your basically asking him is what amounts to homework. Not everyone is a fan of major roleplaying. All this will do is make him even more frustrated with the group.

Sliver
2010-01-30, 07:48 AM
Are you sure you are dealing with a munchkin? Did he do something in the past to deserve such accusations? Did he bend the rules or ignore them for powah?


He's playing a half-orc, and I'm thinking I'm going to make him pay for that a bit by having people instantly distrust him in every city the visit. It's been an urban centered campaign so far, so that shouldn't be too hard.

So making him pay for something he didn't do yet, by using a sub-optimal choice (like, isn't that the worst race choice you can make?) on his part, against him, is an action that going to prevent munchkinizm how exactly? If in your game world people don't trust orcs or half breeds then sure, but just because you suspect he will do something you don't like, you prefer to make him pay rather then talk to him, because it isn't serious enough to deserve talking over? :smallconfused: *head explodes*

frogspawner
2010-01-30, 07:49 AM
So what do you see as a problem, specifically?


I let him play a druid with a grimalkin as his animal companion, and I'm regretting that casual decision just a bit.
Is a grimalkin not a legal companion for a druid, then?

If not, it's easy to reverse your decision. Just say the 'companionship' didn't take permanently, and it leaves.

Otherwise, you can (should!) play the grimalkin as a full character in it's own right - 'companion' is not 'mindless slave'. What does it want to do in life? If the druid doesn't spend a reasonable amount of time helping the grimalkin with it's goals, it'd become dissatisfied with the relationship and also leave. (Though, as a friend, it (i.e. you) may find the druid a replacement companion first - a more suitable one).

bosssmiley
2010-01-30, 10:06 AM
Invoke the powers of the Big Bad I Said NO! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeahRq7hxf4) :smallbiggrin:

Kyrthain
2010-01-30, 10:16 AM
Play with the rule I like to call the "That's stupid, it doesn't work like that" rule.
Basically, if anyone tries to do anything that works RAW, but makes no sense, such as using fabricate to summon infinite quarterstaves to rain down upon your foes, tell them "That's stupid, it doesn't work like that."

Coy
2010-01-30, 10:20 AM
Its important to remember a lesson that was stangely taught waaaay back in the original DMG. Feel free to talk to players about balancing issues, but its not always fair to directly take things away.

Also appreciate that one powerful character seems more so among a group of the inexperienced.

Im just a devils advocate, thats all.

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 11:21 AM
Say, "No."
Then go.
Then tell someone you trust.

:smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2010-01-30, 11:28 AM
He might have chosen his race sub-optimally on purpose, to weaken his character, and Druid so he can ramp up his power level in case things get serious business. Just ask him not to overdo it and then let him play normally.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-30, 12:46 PM
Use words. Nothing else is needed.

Not even fire?

kaiguy
2010-01-30, 12:54 PM
Okay, yeah, I'm not talking serious drastic punishment here - but a half-orc in a human settlement is going to be viewed differently than the half-elves in the party, and I don't see why trying to bring that into the game is bad. Using the word "pay" was a mistake in the description, but I am trying to enforce a world where race choices are not as simple as choosing the set of ability modifiers you want. It's not punishing a character to say most people who have ever seen or even heard of an orc did so in the context of death and destruction; you look like an orc; people are going to fear you until they talk to you. Heck, at first he wanted to play a Diopsid - where's the suspension of disbelief go if I'd let that fly?

Also, I fail to see what's immature about trying to anticipate problems that might make the game less fun for the group as a whole, before they come up, and in general trying to steer the game away form that playing style. It seems way better than waiting until a player makes an ass of themself and then taking them aside and talking to them.

So, for the record, I am not going to make any preemptive strikes just because this guy isn't playing d&d the way I play. Thanks to everyone else, some of the comments were very constructive and helpful.

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 12:58 PM
Not even fire?

Speaking of fire:


Here's how to handle munchkins:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2008/3/ViolentPurge-23124737.jpg

FishAreWet
2010-01-30, 01:15 PM
Also, I fail to see what's immature about trying to anticipate problems that might make the game less fun for the group as a whole, before they come up, and in general trying to steer the game away form that playing style. It seems way better than waiting until a player makes an ass of themself and then taking them aside and talking to them.

So, for the record, I am not going to make any preemptive strikes just because this guy isn't playing d&d the way I play. Thanks to everyone else, some of the comments were very constructive and helpful.

You're not being immature for trying to anticipate problems. You're being immature for working around the player instead of with the player.

Oslecamo
2010-01-30, 01:20 PM
He might have chosen his race sub-optimally on purpose, to weaken his character, and Druid so he can ramp up his power level in case things get serious business. Just ask him not to overdo it and then let him play normally.

Playing half-orc isn't really that crippling. Druid cares not for penalty at int and cha. Heck, there's actualy some theoretical optimization based on low-level half-orc druid that combines the str boost with self druid buffs to make a melee machine before wildshape becomes available.

sofawall
2010-01-30, 01:24 PM
Playing half-orc isn't really that crippling. Druid cares not for penalty at int and cha. Heck, there's actualy some theoretical optimization based on low-level half-orc druid that combines the str boost with self druid buffs to make a melee machine before wildshape becomes available.

Don't half-orcs have a sub level or something to get Augment Summoning without spell focus?

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 01:26 PM
to make a melee build he might want to throw in all 6 paragon levels. 3 Half orc, 3 human for a +4 bonus to STR, a bonus feat, and some other stuff.

Oslecamo
2010-01-30, 01:29 PM
to make a melee build he might want to throw in all 6 paragon levels. 3 Half orc, 3 human for a +4 bonus to STR, a bonus feat, and some other stuff.

But the fun part with the half-orc druid you get to be a melee machine right from level 1, instead of cowering behind your animal companion and hiding untill you reach level 5.

Paragon would delay spellcasting by 4 levels, and wildshape and animal companion by 6. Now that's heresy!

And like pointed out, half-orcs do have some nice sub-levels from Eberron now that I think about it.

FishAreWet
2010-01-30, 01:30 PM
Don't half-orcs have a sub level or something to get Augment Summoning without spell focus?

Yes. And they get d10s on the Sub levels.

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 01:32 PM
to make a melee build he might want to throw in all 6 paragon levels. 3 Half orc, 3 human for a +4 bonus to STR, a bonus feat, and some other stuff.

Lol. Do that, then throw in 10 levels of Dragon Disciple and Half-Dragon Paragons after that. Just 'cause you can.

Sliver
2010-01-30, 01:33 PM
And I don't see why trying to bring that into the game is bad.

The issue wasn't with bringing it into the game because that is how your world reacts to orcs and their blood mixing in with others, but with you wording it as a punishment for the possibility of acting munchkiny.

If the player has a record of being an ass, talking to him before it happening and before you feel the need to act upon that IC is a better solution. If you mixed up munchkin with powergamer, maybe he understands that the others are playing on a lesser level and tones it down without you asking it?

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 02:29 PM
Lol. Do that, then throw in 10 levels of Dragon Disciple and Half-Dragon Paragons after that. Just 'cause you can.

Using an actual character build I had, I threw in levels of Monk and Reaping Mauler. Hilarity ensued, but I managed to choke out the darn dragon nobody else could kill...:smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 02:47 PM
Using an actual character build I had, I threw in levels of Monk and Reaping Mauler. Hilarity ensued, but I managed to choke out the darn dragon nobody else could kill...:smallbiggrin:

...wait, how do you grapple something the size of a Dragon?

Mongoose87
2010-01-30, 02:50 PM
...wait, how do you grapple something the size of a Dragon?

Some sort of Improved Enlarge Person, perhaps?

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 02:50 PM
...wait, how do you grapple something the size of a Dragon?

Hey, at the time it was only 1 size larger than me....Enlarge Person works wonders...

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 02:52 PM
Hey, at the time it was only 1 size larger than me....Enlarge Person works wonders...

...how do you use Reaping Mauler-abilities with Enlarge Person?

Viletta Vadim
2010-01-30, 02:53 PM
Dragons come in all sizes.

At any rate, the big problem I see here are all these accusations that the guy is a munchkin who needs to be dealt with, but absolutely no evidence at all that he is, in fact, a munchkin. Mind that 'munchkin' is a very powerful accusation, and when you call the guy a munchkin, you're basically calling him a cheater.

Making an effective character is not being a munchkin. It's just playing the game. Perhaps you should be more focused on helping the other players become better at the game than on beating this player down.

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 02:55 PM
...how do you use Reaping Mauler-abilities with Enlarge Person?

Step 1: Have Enlarge Person on me.
Step 2: Grapple the Dragon.
Step 3: Choke the living crap out of the Dragon (non-lethal, of course).
Step 4: (Using old subdual rules from 1e as a houserule) Have a Huge Black Dragon as a pet unwilling slave.

Glimbur
2010-01-30, 02:57 PM
...how do you use Reaping Mauler-abilities with Enlarge Person?

Most likely by not noticing that you can't. No offense meant, it's a stupid and counter-intuitive rule and therefore easy to overlook. You can duck around this via Leviathan Hunter, or sensible house rules.

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 03:09 PM
or sensible house rules.

BINGO!

(Obligatory Text to make this more than 10 characters.)