three questions about dragons.

[Mystic Muse]

1. There are rules for incubating Dragon eggs in the Draconomicon. However it doesn't seem to specify what kind of knowledge check it would be to find this information out. Does anybody know what kind of knowledge check this would take or whatever else it would take to find out this information?

2. What would it take to convince a normally evil dragon to become good? I assumed it would require training since its birth but the Draconomicon specifically states that a good character can't rear an evil dragon. Is there any other way to do this?

3. what kind of check does it take to identify a dragon? I can't seem to find it in the SRD or monster manual.

[mikej]

SRD - Knowledge [Arcane]
Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)

For 1 & 3 I'd go with a Knowledge [Arcane] check. I'd imagine the incubating info would be a high DC.

2 one I'm not to sure.

[Roc Ness]

Wasn't there a spell in BoED that traps an evil creature for a year, and if the creature survives permanently changes alignment? I'm not sure if that would help your situation but...

[Mystic Muse]

Wasn't there a spell in BoED that traps an evil creature for a year, and if the creature survives permanently changes alignment? I'm not sure if that would help your situation but...

yes. It's called "mind rape we decided to call food for some arbitrary reason. Just because it turns the user good it's considered a good spell in our book!"

I can't in good conscience use this spell. I have too many real life reasons to hate mind control that prevent me from considering this.

Also, not on the Paladin spell list.

[olentu]

Also, not on the Paladin spell list.

Well sanctified spells are not really tied down to any list. Spell slot could still be an issue.

[mostlyharmful]

Wish?

That being said, if Sanctify the Wicked isn't your thing then you probably don't want anything magical based, even if it doesn't have the 'Mind-affecting' tag it's still messing with free will.

Training, roleplaying, DM fiat and group backing might do something but don't rely on it.

[Mystic Muse]

Wish?



Yes because it's so easy for a Paladin to get ninth level arcane spells.:smalltongue:

Even with a ring of three wishes There are other things I'd rather do.

Another poster came up with the best wish ever. Summon a pie ten times the size of her right on top of Tiamat. Another poster pointed out She wouldn't be able to do anything herself because some trickster deity would probably protect me for the joke.

The problem is, I now have every Evil dragon in the world along with every cult of Tiamat and every cult of her dragons and dragon spawn in the world personally gunning for me.

Also, what does "Sanctified 9" even mean? "I'd check but my computer is acting weird since I'm upgrading my OS)

[olentu]

Yes because it's so easy for a Paladin to get ninth level arcane spells.:smalltongue:

Even with a ring of three wishes There are other things I'd rather do.

Another poster came up with the best wish ever. Summon a pie ten times the size of her right on top of Tiamat. Another poster pointed out She wouldn't be able to do anything herself because some trickster deity would probably protect me for the joke.

The problem is, I now have every Evil dragon in the world along with every cult of Tiamat and every cult of her dragons and dragon spawn in the world personally gunning for me.

Also, what does "Sanctified 9" even mean?

Eh just teleport a sword into her heart.


Sanctified 9 would most likely mean that the spell is a ninth level sanctified spell. The rules for them are as I recall at the beginning of the magic section in the book of exalted deeds.

[Mystic Muse]

Eh just teleport a sword into her heart.


Sanctified 9 would most likely mean that the spell is a ninth level sanctified spell. The rules for them are as I recall at the beginning of the magic section in the book of exalted deeds.

Bah! summoning a giant pie on top of her is funnier. Also, she's a god so I doubt a single sword would kill her. That's if the wish even managed to do that.

And, if that's what sanctified 9 means there's no way a Paladin could use the spell since their slots only go up to level 4.

[olentu]

Bah! summoning a giant pie on top of her is funnier. Also, she's a god so I doubt a single sword would kill her. That's if the wish even managed to do that.

And, if that's what sanctified 9 means there's no way a Paladin could use the spell since their slots only go up to level 4.

Barring some expanded spell capacity or the like not generally.

Though I can not remember the rules for using sanctified spells off of magic items exactly (and even then I recall them being a bit vague) perhaps a scroll. Someone would have to check to be sure.

[PhoenixRivers]

1. There are rules for incubating Dragon eggs in the Draconomicon. However it doesn't seem to specify what kind of knowledge check it would be to find this information out. Does anybody know what kind of knowledge check this would take or whatever else it would take to find out this information?

2. What would it take to convince a normally evil dragon to become good? I assumed it would require training since its birth but the Draconomicon specifically states that a good character can't rear an evil dragon. Is there any other way to do this?

3. what kind of check does it take to identify a dragon? I can't seem to find it in the SRD or monster manual.

1. Knowledge (Arcana) is the knowledge skill used to reference dragons.

2. Depends on the setting. In alignment-mutable settings, such as Eberron, the same as it would take anyone. In non-mutable? The exceptions would be unique, incredibly rare exceptions. Expect something world-shattering to do so, or the Good Mind Rape.

3. Again, Knowledge (Arcana), provided what you see is accurate. True Seeing will also assist, as could Sense motive, spot, listen, and the like. Dragons can be wily, and more than one dragon has posed as a dragon of another color.

Once you get to the correct creature, a check (DC 10 + HD of creature) will reveal information, and for every 5 points you beat it by, you gain an additional useful piece of information.

[hamishspence]

In Faerun, during the Myth Drannor era, one of the major heroes rode a blue/red dragon hybrid which had been raised from birth, by him, to be Good (elves live long lives).

Unfortunately, when he flew over the city at one point, he inadvertantly fulfilled a condition for the release of fiends (which had been imprisoned, but the flaw built into the prison was that if a good -aligned chromatic dragon flew over the city, the fiends would be released.)

Also, there are rituals in Savage species, quite low level ones "Can be cast by clerics with the appropriate domain, of 8th level or higher" that add an alignment subtype to a creature. If the creature is very unlucky, the ritual might kill it if the subtype is opposed to its alignment, but if not, they gain the subtype.

Unless they pass the save by a high number, their alignment also changes to match. So, an evil creature who undergoes the ritual and passed the Will Save by 5 or more, will have Alignment Subtype: Good, actual alignment: evil.

[SparkMandriller]

That's a remarkably specific flaw.

[hamishspence]

Prophesy effect. Maybe the prison was designed to have to have a release condition, so they picked what they thought would be the least likely.

Also, since it was long before, people forgot the prison was there.

[frogspawner]

Prophesy effect.
Nice.

Aren't dragons personifications of Evil? (or Good, I guess). Take the evil out of a chromatic dragon and you're left with... a lizard.

[Innis Cabal]

No, those are outsiders. Who still can be good, evil, chaotic or lawful despite the "Always" tag given time, effort and lots and lots of magic

[hamishspence]

Even in Dragonlance, there was that female red dragon who, thanks to her senility, was guarding and protecting people, rather than killing them.

Faerun chromatic dragons vary quite a bit- Mist in Azure Bonds is described as "evil like a pantomime villain, rather than truly malevolent" and ends up dying fighting alongside the heroes, against the avatar of the evil deity Moander the Darkbringer.

4E in particular tends to shift chromatics from "Always X Evil" to "usually evil" in Draconomicon.

(But then, it shifted the average alignment of metallic dragons from Good to Unaligned, in Draconomicon 2, as well- I'd say it seems that they liked the "Grey-and-Gray morality" of Eberron dragons, and applied it to the core setting.)

[Sereg]

Back in 2nd Ed it said that Crystal dragons sometimes kidnap younger white dragons and raise them to be Chaotic Neutral. I guess that that means that it is possible to raise a dragon to be a different alignment, but maybe it requires a dragon's help. Yeah...I don't know how much that helps you. I suppose diplomacy might also work, after all BoED claims that it can be used for alignment conversion (though it's more complicated than most diplomacy checks).

[hamishspence]

Still says that in 3rd ed (MM2).

The BoED diplomacy method works on things that aren't outsiders with the Evil subtype- for them, it requires magic of some sort, or themselves to have some kind of epiphany.

[frogspawner]

Aren't dragons personifications of Evil? (or Good, I guess). Take the evil out of a chromatic dragon and you're left with... a lizard.No, those are outsiders. ...
Certainly - by the book. But isn't it unrealistic for players to know such obscure things as fact? It should be a GM's campaign decision...

[Splendor]

1. I think it would be a combination of Knowledge (arcane) for just a basic understanding of dragons. But it would be a Handle Animal check to actually make sure the temperature and conditions are correct so the egg didn't die. I don't think the DC would be high for either. Knowledge DC's are 10+ creature's HD and the eggs has 1 maybe 2 HD? So 12.

2. Alignment change without magic? Umm....
a) Continual daily diplomacy checks DC anywhere from 25-50.
b) A 5th level Evangelist has a supernatural power that can convince a creature to act as a new alignment for a couple days and at the end can choose to stay that alignment.
c) Roleplaying. Since dragons don't have an Alignment subtype (like demons do) I suppose reinforcement of a specific moral and ethical outlook with rewards/punishment would work. Even children start off greedy and whinny but we educate them as time goes on. A baby evil dragon given love and attention, and shown why EVIL is evil might change it's outlook. For this I would require the character to have good ranks in Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff and Knowledge Arcane (to better understand a dragon's mind set).

3. Well Identifying a dragon is easy. If its a lizard that can automatically speak common when it comes out of the egg, Then it's a dragon and you could even ask it if it's one.

[Kish]

Aren't dragons personifications of Evil? (or Good, I guess). Take the evil out of a chromatic dragon and you're left with... a lizard.

Certainly - by the book. But isn't it unrealistic for players to know such obscure things as fact? It should be a GM's campaign decision...
It didn't look like you were talking about the PCs' beliefs. Beyond that, you're saying that "chromatic dragons are personifications of evil," despite being factually wrong, is a sensible default assumption for good-aligned people, with, "chromatic dragons are actually sapient beings and not personifications of evil" being...obscure?

[frogspawner]

It didn't look like you were talking about the PCs' beliefs. Beyond that, you're saying that "chromatic dragons are personifications of evil," despite being factually wrong, is a sensible default assumption for good-aligned people, with, "chromatic dragons are actually sapient beings and not personifications of evil" being...obscure?
It doesn't matter what the PCs believe. If the GM doesn't want them raising/converting dragons in his campaign, then it doesn't happen - and saying they are essentially Evil is my suggestion to justify that. That is how dragons are viewed in Real World Western tradition.

I was not "factually wrong" because dragons do not, in fact, exist.

If the PCs go ahead and make the assumption you say, it could turn out very badly for them. Imagine: they raise a dragon or three, and they're sweet as pie while growing up, but perhaps when they mature their inherent evil nature re-asserts itself (along with their breath-weapon's development?) - and they suddenly turn. Ouch.

PS: If the OP is GM, and wants the PCs riding dragons, then my comments are less relevant. If he's a Player wanting a dragon... well, be warned!

[Kish]

If the PCs go ahead and make the assumption you say, it could turn out very badly for them.
If you make the "assumption" that humans are not "personifications of evil," that could turn out at least equally badly. Whatever is your point?

Beyond that, you seem to be jumping wildly between "this is the way it is," "this is the way it is in D&D," "this is a way the DM could handle it, if the DM wanted to for some reason which I'm not going to talk about." You started with asserting that chromatic dragons are personifications of evil. If that sits perfectly well in your mind with your later shifts, so be it.

[frogspawner]

You started with asserting that chromatic dragons are personifications of evil.
No, I started by posing the question that they could be. (And they can be whatever the GM says - and I'm perfectly happy to talk about why the GM should have the say-so over what goes in their campaign, if you like. But I'd have thought that was obvious.).


If you make the "assumption" that humans are not "personifications of evil," that could turn out at least equally badly. Whatever is your point?
:smallconfused: I don't understand you there. But my point is the GM is in charge. :smallcool:

The OP sounds like a player wanting to get pet dragons, and wanting rules advice to pressure the GM into allowing it. There are, and should be, pitfalls with that...

[deuxhero]

2. What would it take to convince a normally evil dragon to become good? I assumed it would require training since its birth but the Draconomicon specifically states that a good character can't rear an evil dragon. Is there any other way to do this?



Helm of opposite alignment?

[Volkov]

Eh just teleport a sword into her heart.


Sanctified 9 would most likely mean that the spell is a ninth level sanctified spell. The rules for them are as I recall at the beginning of the magic section in the book of exalted deeds.

She's a god, that won't work.

[bosssmiley]

Know:Arcana
Sorry, no can do. Nature trumps nurture. The dragon only will toe the line until the first opportunity for betrayal presents itself. Dragons do not kow-tow to monkeys.
Know:Arcana

[Volkov]

Know:Arcana
Sorry, no can do. Nature trumps nurture. The dragon only will toe the line until the first opportunity for betrayal presents itself. Dragons do not kow-tow to monkeys.
Know:Arcana


If a crystal dragon can make a chaotic neutral being out of a white dragon, then gosh darnit I can make a lawful good creature out of one.

[unre9istered]

To change a dragon's alignment you could try getting it to like you a lot and then cast Atonement for the willing alignment change option. If you're raising it from an egg it seems like this should be possible.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

The answer is there is no by the book way to do this without really powerfull magic but various stories imply that its possible so all you really need to do is talk to you gm about this being a goal of yours and probably spend a story arc getting it done. . .

[Volkov]

You may not need magic, but at the very least you will need a long life span and lots of patience. It's easier to change the alignment of a dragon than it is an outsider with an alignment subtype, but because dragons mature slowly, you will need to nurture it for a few centuries. Not something most humans could do, and a considerable chunk out of even an Elf, True Giant, or Dwarf's lifespan. Which is why another True Dragon is best suited for this Job.

[Optimystik]

That's a remarkably specific flaw.

Tell me about it. I could just imagine the Baelnorns that came up with that one.

"There's no way this could ever happen. Not in a million years."
"You're right! High five, Elbereth! Let's go sip wine coolers and eat berries."


Certainly - by the book. But isn't it unrealistic for players to know such obscure things as fact? It should be a GM's campaign decision...

No, it isn't. That's what Knowledge skills are for.

[frogspawner]

Certainly - by the book. But isn't it unrealistic for players to know such obscure things as fact? It should be a GM's campaign decision...
No, it isn't. That's what Knowledge skills are for.
Good point. And if they make their roll the 'true' answer would come from the GM.

Of the OP's 3 questions though, this one (#2) was the one not regarding knowledge skill, I now notice. I suspect he doesn't want to know how to check if it's possible - because the answer might be 'No'? - just how to make it happen.

[Optimystik]

Of the OP's 3 questions though, this one (#2) was the one not regarding knowledge skill, I now notice. I suspect he doesn't want to know how to check if it's possible - because the answer might be 'No'? - just how to make it happen.

That's because, without magic or another dragon, the answer is "he can't."

But that isn't the answer he wants to hear.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That's because, without magic or another dragon, the answer is "he can't."

But that isn't the answer he wants to hear.I doubt that. There appears to be no reason why Chromatic Dragons are 'always Evil', they just are. If a Paladin wants to raise one in a loving, nurturing environment, he should be able to, and the dragon should reflect that when it grows up. Yes, it may be naturally violent and greedy, but the Paladin has it from an egg. He should be able to change it.

[Optimystik]

I doubt that. There appears to be no reason why Chromatic Dragons are 'always Evil', they just are. If a Paladin wants to raise one in a loving, nurturing environment, he should be able to, and the dragon should reflect that when it grows up. Yes, it may be naturally violent and greedy, but the Paladin has it from an egg. He should be able to change it.

Except Draconomicon specifically states this is impossible.



The dragon's alignment must not be opposed to the character's alignment on either the law vs. chaos or good vs. evil axis.

Since Paladins cannot be neutral, they will always be opposed to Chromatics, assuming we're not using the UA Variant Paladins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) (in which case you still wouldn't be changing the wyrm's alignment.)

Your DM can houserule otherwise, but that is what it will be - a houserule.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't actually plan on riding a Chromatic dragon into battle and wasn't going to raise it to do so. I just figure Bahamut would like a few more Dragons on his side.(I'm a Paladin of Bahamut)

And no, even though I do GM a game, my players will not be riding Dragons. (mainly because it's 4th edition and it'd be too unbalanced)

[Kish]

I don't actually plan on riding a Chromatic dragon into battle and wasn't going to raise it to do so. I just figure Bahamut would like a few more Dragons on his side.
I would say your best bet is to ask the DM, "What would it take to raise a chromatic dragon to be good in your gameworld?"

Failing that, just plant all the eggs in crystal dragon nests and hope for the best.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Since Paladins cannot be neutral, they will always be opposed to Chromatics, assuming we're not using the UA Variant Paladins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) (in which case you still wouldn't be changing the wyrm's alignment.)

Your DM can houserule otherwise, but that is what it will be - a houserule.That makes no sense. There are lots of people that are raised by parents of opposite alignments. And it still provides no explanation as to why Dragons are 'Always [alignment]' instead of 'Usually'.

[Drakyn]

That makes no sense. There are lots of people that are raised by parents of opposite alignments. And it still provides no explanation as to why Dragons are 'Always [alignment]' instead of 'Usually'.

I think there's some half-explained "inherited knowledge" from the dragon's parents, but they never went into much detail on that beyond saying that a baby dragon is an odd mix of a fully-fledged individual and a child on birth.

[deuxhero]

I'd say go to Eberron but

1.While handy if you wanted any other creature with an odd alignment, but Eberron's dragons...
2.Spelljamer and Planescape were never officially updated to 3.5 beyond some dragon stuff, so getting there is an issue.

[Optimystik]

That makes no sense. There are lots of people that are raised by parents of opposite alignments. And it still provides no explanation as to why Dragons are 'Always [alignment]' instead of 'Usually'.

"Lots of people" aren't dragons.

I'm not sure why we're arguing about this anyway - I didn't write the book.

[Mystic Muse]

"Lots of people" aren't dragons.

I'm not sure why we're arguing about this anyway - I didn't write the book.

Or did you? DUNH DUNH DUNH! No. No you did not.

[Debihuman]

1. There are rules for incubating Dragon eggs in the Draconomicon. However it doesn't seem to specify what kind of knowledge check it would be to find this information out. Does anybody know what kind of knowledge check this would take or whatever else it would take to find out this information?

2. What would it take to convince a normally evil dragon to become good? I assumed it would require training since its birth but the Draconomicon specifically states that a good character can't rear an evil dragon. Is there any other way to do this?

3. what kind of check does it take to identify a dragon? I can't seem to find it in the SRD or monster manual.

1. Knowledge (Arcana). See Skills section in Player's Handbook. DC = 10 + Creature's HD.

2. Specifically in the Draconomicon page 13 it states:


A character seeking to rear a newly hatched wyrmling must begin with a Diplomacy or Intimidate check to persuade the dragon to accept the character’s guidance; 5 or more ranks of Knowledge (arcana) gives the character a +2 bonus on the check. The character’s Diplomacy or Intimidate check is opposed by a Sense Motive check by the dragon. The dragon has a +15 racial bonus on its check. Certain other conditions, such as those mentioned on the table below, can further modify the wyrmling’s Sense Motive check.

According to the chart you CAN raise a dragon with a different alignment but it is much more difficult. See the chart. "If the wyrmling wins the opposed check, it regards the character as a captor and attempts to gain its freedom any way it can." If you are raising it as a COHORT, it cannot be opposed to your alignment but that's not the same as just raising a dragon.

3. Knowledge Arcana check. A dragon of a specific color should be obvious. However, an Albino Red dragon would be more difficult to spot as would a Red/Black half dragon.

Debby

[Mystic Muse]

huh. You're right about that.:smallconfused: I don't know how I missed that.