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retaliation08
2010-01-30, 02:55 PM
what specifically does it mean to be invisible? if you are invisible can you see yourself? how would that apply to an invisibility sphere? can the people in the sphere see eachother? If you told someone that you made them invisible would they be inclined to believe you, or based on physical evidence would they be able to tell?

Sliver
2010-01-30, 02:59 PM
If you are invisible, you can't see. Because the light doesn't hit your eye thingie it doesn't reach your mind so.. Congratz on being blind..

Douglas
2010-01-30, 03:02 PM
Being unable to see yourself and (especially) your own equipment would, realistically, imply a lot of problems for the subject that just are not accounted for at all by the spell. I think it's a reasonable assumption that the lack of problems with coordination and finding your own invisible gear means that the subject can, in fact, see himself.

Invisibility Sphere specifically mentions that those affected by the sphere can see each other and themselves.

As for bluffing someone about making them invisible, the rules aren't clear on how or if a person could observe his own invisibility.

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 03:06 PM
Being unable to see yourself and (especially) your own equipment would, realistically, imply a lot of problems for the subject that just are not accounted for at all by the spell. I think it's a reasonable assumption that the lack of problems with coordination and finding your own invisible gear means that the subject can, in fact, see himself.

Eh, muscle sense means you're quite able to do that without seeing yourself, especially with the years of practice in whatever you're doing expected by D&D.

dsmiles
2010-01-30, 03:07 PM
GAAAAAHHHH!!!! Buy "Quantum Physics for Dummies," it's the only way to answer this one...:smalleek:

Animefunkmaster
2010-01-30, 03:08 PM
I would imagine they couldn't see themselves.

Douglas
2010-01-30, 03:14 PM
Eh, muscle sense means you're quite able to do that without seeing yourself, especially with the years of practice in whatever you're doing expected by D&D.
It's not coordinating with your own body that's the problem, it's your equipment. You might be able to tell when your hand is a safe distance from your eye without seeing it, but doing the same with the tip of your sword is another matter. And then there's digging through belt pouches, backpacks, and such.

Flickerdart
2010-01-30, 03:15 PM
"Hang on, gonna cast Invisibility on you." *casts Blindness*
"I can't see!"
"That means it worked!"

retaliation08
2010-01-30, 03:17 PM
"Hang on, gonna cast Invisibility on you." *casts Blindness*
"I can't see!"
"That means it worked!"

see thats the type of situation i was getting at. the character im about to play is a trickster and stunts like that would be up his alley if they were possible

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 03:32 PM
It's not coordinating with your own body that's the problem, it's your equipment. You might be able to tell when your hand is a safe distance from your eye without seeing it, but doing the same with the tip of your sword is another matter. And then there's digging through belt pouches, backpacks, and such.

For a warrior trained in the use of a sword, it's a trivial matter to figure that out based on the position of your hand and the feel of the grip. You don't look down while you parry down; you don't need to. Even I don't need to. All you need to see is the opponent's blade; your own is practically an extension of you.

Now, Potions and such though, there should definitely be an increase in time...unless you're using magical aid such as Handy Haversack.

Drakevarg
2010-01-30, 03:32 PM
It's a magic effect, so the physics of invisibility are irrelevent. In regards to being able to see yourself, I'd say you're completely invisible to everyone else but to yourself you see something like the Predator's warping effect. Or your semitransparent. Or look like you're made of frosted glass. Or whatever.

Or better yet, you can't tell at ALL. Cue Emperor's New Clothes moment.

kentma57
2010-01-30, 03:35 PM
"Hang on, gonna cast Invisibility on you." *Baleful Invisibility*
"I can't see!"
"That means it worked!"

My version.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 03:38 PM
Invisibility is an illusion spell. IIRC by default you disbelieve your own illusions, so you can see yourself when you cast invisibility on yourself, and I'd assume the same is true for a spell cast by an ally.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-30, 04:01 PM
Invisibility is an illusion spell. IIRC by default you disbelieve your own illusions, so you can see yourself when you cast invisibility on yourself, and I'd assume the same is true for a spell cast by an ally.

It isn't even that. The spell just makes you Hide better by giving you a huge bonus and constant concealment. It doesn't turn you truly invisible, it just refracts light to give yourself Active Camouflage.

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 04:16 PM
It isn't even that. The spell just makes you Hide better by giving you a huge bonus and constant concealment. It doesn't turn you truly invisible, it just refracts light to give yourself Active Camouflage.

I thought the basis for the possibility of Spotting invisible people was "noticing something wrong around 'em" and that it's specifically spelled out you can't see someone Invisible, which would suggest that Invisibility simply makes light pass right through you.

I guess this is what I'm thinking: "A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it."

Now, my reading is certainly not the only possible one, but I think it's very plausible.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 04:19 PM
I thought the basis for the possibility of Spotting invisible people was "noticing something wrong around 'em" and that it's specifically spelled out you can't see someone Invisible, which would suggest that Invisibility simply makes light pass right through you.

I guess this is what I'm thinking: "A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it."

Now, my reading is certainly not the only possible one, but I think it's very plausible.

Maybe you see ripples in the air, like the Stealth Camo in Metal Gear Solid.

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 04:24 PM
Maybe you see ripples in the air, like the Stealth Camo in Metal Gear Solid.

Hm, if you could, I think the DC to notice Invisibles would be much lower, and more importantly, noticing their presence would give you the square they're in. How the air flows, how sound acts and such seem more plausible basis for noticing someone Invisible.

EDIT: Again, this is by far from the only plausible explanation, but I think it's at least one.

ericgrau
2010-01-30, 05:35 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility

Listen is generally the simplest method for finding invisible creatures. You'll notice the DCs are quite low, and adding 20 to the DC lets you find the exact square the target is in instead of the general direction. Spot works too, but the DCs seem to be about 20 higher. It's not ripples in the air, but more like kicking up dust and similar effects. Puddles, flour, grass, etc., etc. could also give away an invisible creature, and invisible creatures can be tracked.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-30, 05:43 PM
Footprints in the sand etc. are also good options. I retract my previous statement.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 05:48 PM
I would think see invisibility would blind you as well, since you see ALL invisible things. Including the liquid in your eyeballs, the tears coating your eyes, and the air surrounding that.

Have fun spotting that wizard when you're having such a grand time seeing everything else around you that's also invisible.

absolmorph
2010-01-31, 12:05 AM
I would think see invisibility would blind you as well, since you see ALL invisible things. Including the liquid in your eyeballs, the tears coating your eyes, and the air surrounding that.

Have fun spotting that wizard when you're having such a grand time seeing everything else around you that's also invisible.
Those aren't invisible, they're transparent.
Calling them invisible would be like calling glass invisible. Do I need to prove that glass is visible?

Not only did you kill a cat girl, you also failed at physics.
Side note, you can see air. Look up while outside. During the day, you'll probably see blue, unless it's overcast. And tears are visible. We just tend not to see them, and as a result it's tangential to my point.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-31, 12:08 AM
Side note, you can see air. Look up while outside. During the day, you'll probably see blue, unless it's overcast. And tears are visible. We just tend not to see them, and as a result it's tangential to my point.Alternatively, live in LA.

absolmorph
2010-01-31, 12:10 AM
Alternatively, live in LA.
I haven't looked up much when I go to LA. Too many people I could walk into.
That also applies, though.