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Fiery Diamond
2010-01-30, 05:45 PM
So, I keep running into people on these boards talking about how high AC isn't all that great. This leads me to my question:

Assuming I wish to deal direct damage (not a status effect, illusion, enchantment, etc.), how do I do so to a character/creature with improved evasion, high reflex save, high touch AC, and high flat-footed AC? Without having to have a ridiculously high BAB?

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 05:46 PM
Level, class, resources?

Flickerdart
2010-01-30, 05:47 PM
So, I keep running into people on these boards talking about how high AC isn't all that great. This leads me to my question:

Assuming I wish to deal direct damage (not a status effect, illusion, enchantment, etc.), how do I do so to a character/creature with improved evasion, high reflex save, high touch AC, and high flat-footed AC? Without having to have a ridiculously high BAB?
Acid Fog should do the trick.

Tavar
2010-01-30, 05:49 PM
Maximized Time Stop, then three walls of force(in a triangle), Then Transmute Rock to Lava/Polymorph any Object on the ground, then Prismatic Sphere above the whole contraption?

Viletta Vadim
2010-01-30, 05:51 PM
Kineticist is fairly simple. Cold damage is fortitude for half.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-30, 05:51 PM
High touch AC? does that exist? :smallconfused:

Flickerdart
2010-01-30, 05:53 PM
High touch AC? does that exist? :smallconfused:
Presumably the creature's entire AC bonus is Deflection or something similar, which applies against both Touch and Flat-footed.

Myou
2010-01-30, 05:55 PM
Maximized Time Stop, then three walls of force(in a triangle), Then Transmute Rock to Lava/Polymorph any Object on the ground, then Prismatic Sphere above the whole contraption?

Wow, three walls of force? And even with all those spells, that doesn't seem likely to work on any creature with teleportation, a burrow speed, spellcasting, or a well chosen item or two.

sofawall
2010-01-30, 05:56 PM
High touch AC? does that exist? :smallconfused:

For monsters? Yes.

For NPCs with class levels? Yes.

For well built PCs? Hell yes, especially in an arena setting.

Tavar
2010-01-30, 05:57 PM
That's just a combo I remember hearing on some thread about ways to pretty much assure damage. There are probably much better ways of doing it.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-01-30, 06:00 PM
That's just a combo I remember hearing on some thread about ways to pretty much assure damage. There are probably much better ways of doing it.

Definitely. Maximized Time Stop takes up a level 12 slot; Epic Levels.

Tavar
2010-01-30, 06:01 PM
Rods of Metamagic....

Proven_Paradox
2010-01-30, 06:09 PM
High touch AC? does that exist? :smallconfused:If you're willing to go sword and board and have the feats to make it work, absolutely. Shield Ward (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Shield_Ward) only has one pre-req and is an excellent investment for a defense-based warrior. If you'd rather not shell out the pre-req, or want to use a tower shield (which you cannot take the pre-req Shield Specialization feat for), Parrying Shield (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Parrying_Shield) can boost your touch AC too. If psionics are in play, get power points somehow (a dip into Psychic Warrior or drop a feat for Natural Talent) and pick up Heavy Armor Optimization and then Deflective Armor (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Deflective_Armor). Bam. I've got an Incarnate build that can easily have a touch AC better than 30 at level 9, without flaws.

Now, by doing all this, you're really taking a hit to offense and therefore not going to garner the attention you need from enemies to actually make that AC work for you. Not much protection from save producing damage effects. So in the end it still doesn't keep you from getting hurt.

sofawall
2010-01-30, 06:13 PM
Well, there is a Cleric spell that gives you an automatic natural 20. Hard to miss with that. combine with another automatic 20 generator (there are at least two others) and a vorpal weapon, and, well, most things are dead.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-01-30, 06:24 PM
Rods of Metamagic....

...shut up, I remembered they exist.

Still, though. You've got 9th level spells... I'm sure there's more broken things you can do with them. (So now I guess I'm just agreeing with you).

Admiral Squish
2010-01-30, 06:26 PM
There's a feat in RoS that applies your normal armor bonus against touch attacks, and Lords of Madness has one that applies your shield to touch too.

Kantolin
2010-01-30, 06:37 PM
Magic Missile?

Starbuck_II
2010-01-30, 06:41 PM
High touch AC? does that exist? :smallconfused:

A Wilder gets to add Cha to Touch AC up to normal non-touch AC. It is an untyped bonus.

So 2 dips in Wilder can be useful.

herrhauptmann
2010-01-30, 06:45 PM
Well, there is a Cleric spell that gives you an automatic natural 20. Hard to miss with that. combine with another automatic 20 generator (there are at least two others) and a vorpal weapon, and, well, most things are dead.


Vorpal is useless without a crit. Unless you have a character designed to get crits, you're better off with a +5 flaming than a +1 vorpal.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 06:53 PM
A Quickened grease will have your foe flat-footed, meaning no Dex, dodge, or insight bonuses. A Quickened true strike will give you a +20. Belt one of those out and hit them with an enervation or a telekinesis. Combine with wraithstrike for more goodness.

Alternately superior/greater/invisibility, or polymorph into something with a super-high Strength, or summon something with high combat stats, or start Hiding. A couple of buffs (including HASTE!) on a 12-headed pyrohydra will seriously wreck his day.

You could also try things that don't really give much defense, such as maze.

Acid fog + dimension lock, followed by a stone shape, a wall of force (if he's by a wall), or a forcecage (greater shadow evocation ensures that you don't have to pay the gp cost) the following round.

You could try collapsing the room in on him. Kind of hard to avoid crushing damage when the entire room is encased in rock.

A properly presented trap the soul means no SR, no saves, no defenses at all.

Swarm of crystals (a psionic power) doesn't allow any defense but immunity to piercing, but you have to be within 15 ft of your target. Great for a The Big Guy is With Me build, but not so much otherwise.

Summon swarm for auto-damage and possibly some status effects on a failed save.

Try dispelling his buffs and magic items (if any) to reduce the AC a bit. A Chain Spell'd greater dispel magic is good for this.

Dust of sneezing and choking renders him debuffed and incapacitated, no save (which means you can have a few rounds to hit them with further debuffs). It should knock his AC down a bit, and should affect his saving throws as well.

Really, there are lots of these, most of which are in core.

Myou
2010-01-30, 06:54 PM
Vorpal is useless without a crit. Unless you have a character designed to get crits, you're better off with a +5 flaming than a +1 vorpal.

Uh, but a 20 is a crit.

Lapak
2010-01-30, 07:46 PM
Magic Missile?This made me laugh and laugh, because everyone else in the thread is throwing around 6th-9th level spells and you pointed out that it's quite possible from level 1 on.

herrhauptmann
2010-01-30, 07:49 PM
Uh, but a 20 is a crit.

Misread his post. Oops. Thought he was referring to a divine form of Truestrike.
Still doesn't help against several creature types (plant, undead, ooze, etc), fortification armor, miss chances.

sofawall
2010-01-30, 07:50 PM
Vorpal is useless without a crit. Unless you have a character designed to get crits, you're better off with a +5 flaming than a +1 vorpal.

First off, vorpal is useless with a crit.

Second, use the auto-nat-20 from the Cleric spell (whose name I cann-Surge of fortune? That name just came to me) to get the vorpal. Second nat 20 gets a confirm. No more head.

Myou
2010-01-30, 07:54 PM
Misread his post. Oops. Thought he was referring to a divine form of Truestrike.
Still doesn't help against several creature types (plant, undead, ooze, etc), fortification armor, miss chances.

Yes, it also falls prey to reality - I've never met a DM who'd allow that combination. I ban vorpal enhancements in general.

Tavar
2010-01-30, 07:56 PM
Oh, another way; I'm not sure if it works, but could you do the standard Aptitude weapon/lighting maces trick? Only part I'm not sure about is if the Crit needs to hit or not.

Optimystik
2010-01-30, 07:59 PM
This made me laugh and laugh, because everyone else in the thread is throwing around 6th-9th level spells and you pointed out that it's quite possible from level 1 on.

It's also quite possible to block at level 1 on. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm)

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 08:02 PM
No more head.That's something you might want to mention BEFORE the second date.

Tavar
2010-01-30, 08:05 PM
It's also quite possible to block at level 1 on. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm)

Additionally, it does a minuscule amount of damage. Yeah, at level 1 it isn't bad, but that's because any ammount of damage at level 1 is substantial. Even then, it's still not great due to limited times per day.

Eldariel
2010-01-30, 08:11 PM
Honestly, True Strike > Orb is usually plenty good vs. high Touch AC+Evasion+Ref+SR+Miss Chance; you only need to beat the Touch AC-part and for that to be a problem, it needs to be in the 50s-60s.

If you need some more, shaped Anti-Magic Field, approach, above. Invisible. Very few things have non-magical flat-footed touch AC above 50. Mind you, it's possible, but very, very difficult and requires some stupidity already. Generally, Quickened True Strike > Orb with/without move is a good sequence.


Another good approach is attacking the Spell Resistance; between Assay Spell Resistance and True Casting, you can with one exceed SR by 20. Combust [SpC] or Maw of Chaos [SpC] are fine spells for this, for example. And yeah, heavily metamagicked Acid Fog is probably the safest way to take out things immune to every damn thing.

It offers no defenses of any kind and can still deal ~couple of hundred points of damage with sufficient metamagicking (half through immunities), and with level 9 spells, you can Time Stop and drop a handful of them on the same guy.


Or, of course, you can just cast Gate a couple of times if you've got 9th level spells (again, Time Stop pretty much ensures you have the actions to pull this all off) and have some Great Wyrms/Abominations/Angels/Whatever do your dirty work.

Also, sufficient Dispelling aimed at items tends to bring anyone's Touch AC down a ton. One sufficiently strong Chain Greater Dispel Magic through all your items is going to remove your defenses if it resolves.



Bottomline, casters have so many different angles of attack that it's practically impossible to block them all. Between anti-magic, dispelling and "damage regardless of what you have"-effects, finding sufficient defenses for that without epic magic is just a pain.

For the death cage? You use Dimensional Lock, Force Manifest and readied action to replace any Disintegrated Walls of Force, or preferably, shaped AMF from a position they can't reach still affecting them to keep them from escaping. Of course other casters can escape it, but martial types have issues.

Tavar
2010-01-30, 08:19 PM
For acid fog, isn't Iron Heart Surge an option?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-30, 08:21 PM
Bottomline, casters have so many different angles of attack that it's practically impossible to block them all. Between anti-magic, dispelling and "damage regardless of what you have"-effects, finding sufficient defenses for that without epic magic is just a pain.There's Ikea Tarrasque builds floating around designed for players that are immune to nearly all avenues of attack. Though, Searing Spell Orb of Flaming Death is usually a good option, since often they don't bother with immunity to damage, just immunity to all sources of damage, and Searing overcomes that.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-30, 08:27 PM
For acid fog, isn't Iron Heart Surge an option?

That'd probably be a DM ruling. He could say:

1. You surge and are no longer affected by the fog. Your surge ends. You resume burning to death.

2. You surge and are no longer affected by the fog. The wizard casts fog again.

Runestar
2010-01-30, 08:47 PM
As earlier mentioned, does he have a weak save you can target. Spells such as horrid wilting would require a fort save.

Some spells like icestorm don't offer saves, but the damage kinda stinks.

Viletta Vadim
2010-01-30, 08:54 PM
Some spells like icestorm don't offer saves, but the damage kinda stinks.
Pile on enough metamagic and crappy damage stops being crappy and starts burning Kossuth to death.

Akal Saris
2010-01-30, 10:23 PM
This made me laugh and laugh, because everyone else in the thread is throwing around 6th-9th level spells and you pointed out that it's quite possible from level 1 on.

I agree, it was so out of place that I had to chuckle :smallbiggrin:

Here's another low level solution: throw a flask of alchemist's fire at the ground on his feet. Guaranteed 1 damage.

Now take leadership, make your 500 followers all experts, have them all make alchemist's fire or acid, and send waves of suicidal goblin alchemists at your invincible armored foe, praying that he doesn't have Resist 5 to acid and fire.
*Akal does not actually endorse the above tactic in any sane combat.

jiriku
2010-01-30, 10:31 PM
So, I keep running into people on these boards talking about how high AC isn't all that great. This leads me to my question:

Assuming I wish to deal direct damage (not a status effect, illusion, enchantment, etc.), how do I do so to a character/creature with improved evasion, high reflex save, high touch AC, and high flat-footed AC? Without having to have a ridiculously high BAB?

Hail of stone. Magic missile. Chain missile. Ice storm. All of these deal damage with no hit roll and no save. Apply metamagic to taste to increase the damage. With proper optimization, you can deal 50, 100, 200, 300, 500, 1000, or more damage per round with these humble little spells.

Summon swarm. Insect plague. Heat metal.

Horrid wilting. Extract water elemental. These deal beaucoup damage with a Fort save for half. The damage is harder to optimize because the spells are high level, but because they're high level, they also deal plenty of damage even with unoptimized use.

Use spells like fire shield or death armor so that he takes automatic damage every time he hits you.

Cast polymorph, turn into a black pudding, invade his space, and grapple him. Cast summon monster to summon an air elemental, command it to become a whirlwind, then pick him up and drop him off the nearest cliff.

Also, why bother with damage? Sleep. Charm person. Hold person. Flesh to stone. Fear. Magic Jar. Transmute rock to mud + transmute mud to rock. I could literally list 50 more spells from levels 1 - 9 that will kill a target, render it helpless, or subject it to your will without targeting AC.

For nonmagical options, spray him with an inhaled poison. Bull rush him into a dangerous area, such as off a cliff or into a pit or river of lava. A bull rush from a fighter with the dungeoncrasher ability does impressive damage just pushing him into any old wall or piece of furniture. Collapse a building on him, or trap him inside one and set it on fire. Disarm him, take his weapon, and then walk away laughing while the party wizard summons some fire elementals for him to play with.

Fluffles
2010-01-30, 11:27 PM
Sorcerer / Spellwarp Sniper (Complete Scoundrel).

Won't work till 12/13th level though.

(Rogue 1 >> Rogue 1 / Sorcerer 6 >> Rogue 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Spellwarp Sniper 4/5)

But pretty much what you do is cast Arcane Fusion (CArc I think), with a True Strike and Spellwarped Wings of Flurry. This gets you an attack roll at a minimum of +25, and thats with a dex of 8, vs. an enemies touch AC, and there is no save vs. the Dazing either, so that as long as you don't roll 1s, the guy is stuck sitting still.

EDIT: Force Missiles. 4th level magic missile, 2d6 force damage a hit, never miss unless the target has total cover/concealment. 1 Missile/4 levels.

sofawall
2010-01-30, 11:40 PM
Oh, another way; I'm not sure if it works, but could you do the standard Aptitude weapon/lighting maces trick? Only part I'm not sure about is if the Crit needs to hit or not.

That would work, but not the reasons you think. Vorpal needs a natural 20, not a critical threat. The Lightning Maces would, however, grant large numbers of attacks, making it more likely a 20 comes up.

And yes, you do need to confirm the crit. That is why 2 nat 20 generators are needed for a guaranteed kill.

Tavar
2010-01-31, 12:12 AM
Actually, I meant simply as a way to get large amounts of damage. The questioning part was that I was unsure if you needed to hit with when you threatened to get an extra attack.

sofawall
2010-01-31, 12:19 AM
Actually, I meant simply as a way to get large amounts of damage. The questioning part was that I was unsure if you needed to hit with when you threatened to get an extra attack.

Oh, that. You need to hit to threaten, and hit to confirm. Hit twice, and you crit.

Tavar
2010-01-31, 12:23 AM
So then the lightning maces strategy wouldn't work, would it? Unless I'm misremembering the feat.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-31, 12:25 AM
Time Stop (with Greater Rod of Extend Spell) > Dimensional Lock > Maw of Chaos/Acid Fog (however many you like) > Forcecage

or

Magic Missile / Force Missile Spam (an Empowered Magic Missile at CL 9 does 26.25 average damage... Throw on a quickened MM as well, and you're in the 43-44 damage per round, on average, with next to no optimization.)

or

Hold Person + Coup de Grace

Person_Man
2010-02-01, 10:47 AM
So, I keep running into people on these boards talking about how high AC isn't all that great. This leads me to my question:

Assuming I wish to deal direct damage (not a status effect, illusion, enchantment, etc.), how do I do so to a character/creature with improved evasion, high reflex save, high touch AC, and high flat-footed AC? Without having to have a ridiculously high BAB?

I would say that if someone's defenses are really that high, then it's a mistake to try and deal direct damage against them for the first few rounds. You should be debuffing them first and/or buffing yourself, and then putting the beat down on them.

Sleight of Hand allows you to target someone's possessions (and you can do it as a Free Action), taking their spell component pouch, quiver, holy symbol, etc.

Sunder or Disarm lets you target anything they are holding, including their weapon or shield. (Don't even bother with the Improved feats. Just carry a two handed adamantine reach weapon).

You can limit their movement with nets, harpoons, and dozens of different spells and effects.

Once you make a single Touch Attack (which might take you a while, if their Touch AC is high. But not forever) Grapple checks ignore AC.

You can also Summon a metric ton of allies. This will further limit your enemies movement, and give you more and more attack rolls each turn, increasing the probability of natural 20's.

Then you can focus on debuffs. Doomspeak, spells, auras, Fear effects (demoralize!), etc.

And if this is a recurrent problem in your game, then find a way to deal karmic damage. A couple magic items, spells, and soulmelds deal damage to your enemy every time they are hit automatically.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-01, 11:36 AM
Force Missile Mage makes AC irrelevant.